should dragons get real power and pay the price for it?

[Vlisson]

What will happen to the dragons?

they got a real boost in power since release (+2 armor per lvl, scales provide automatic armor boost (+25 addidional for t5 scales), ancients get +33% armor, hoard strikes, ...)

but they got not the strongest player race ingame. Their armor is not superior nor the best ingame. their claws are not stronger then a sword, the average hit (if you dont use any ability) shows a big gap.

Should dragons be the strongest race?

before the release you got told that ancient will be very rare and be the most powerfull race. ok a lot of things changed ^^

but should ancient dragons be stronger? if yes then why and how do they should earn their superiority?

*******************

my opinion on this question:
open the levels for dragons unlimited, dont give dragons the multiclass "ability"

if you would open the levels for dragons, everyone could gain levels. This would cost experience points on a progressive scale (a good deal more then to multiclass)

maybe add some abilities (higher tiers) you gain every 3-10 lvls (but not important)

if you could lvls as a dragon to lvl 140 (for expample) you would have much more hitpoints than a lvl 100 biped rating 200, you would maybe have the same strength than a fitter ^^

if you have more time to invest then you could lvl further, becoming real strong

*******************

im fine with the multiclass from the bipeds (enjoying it self)
bipeds are more versatile, short lived are more hectic, try out all they want (good rp view)

but dragons should if they age get stronger in one thing (lunus melee and helians in magical usage), they teached the humans the kind of magic, hey but why do their bolts hurt more then the bolts of their teachers?

if a dragon would be not limited by a lvl restriction this could happen, or?

you can spin this further with dragon crafters, if they could gain for expample lvl 120 then they should choose what path they take (spellcrafter or scalecrafter) then get a bonus to all made Spells/Scales for dragons (only), all scales could give an additional +2 armor bonus orall spells could give an additional damage bonus...

what are your opinions of dragon power?

[Zais]

I think the big problem is that dragons are stuck being kinda good at everything and excelling in nothing. For bipeds each individual school usually is only good at one thing and pretty bad a the rest, but its because bipeds can multiclass and have the high parts of a bunch of school that they make dragons feel weak by comparison.

I think the dragon school by itself is a very powerful school already, but they just can't specialize in anything. If there were more schools for dragons this would be different, but then I think dragons would be just like bipeds but with a different look. I always liked how they were different than bipeds, and provided a very different game if you got tired of being a biped.

Not all the players multiclass and there is a lot more work in taking 3-4 biped schools to 100 without powerleveling than to play a dragon and have to just level adventure. Dragon adventure is slower, but there really isn't another school right now to switch to.

I would like to see dragons be able to specialize more in pickign either lunus or hellian and having a different school for each. Lunus would get lots of strength and armor, and hellian would get lots of power and maybe speed. The only problem is that alot of people didn't pick their faction because of how they wanted to play, they picked it because they liked one RoP over the other. If there was a way to switch factions or a big story about the lunus and hellians getting into a war and splitting into two new schools, that would be very interesting.

[CallakDW]

I think the only way you are going to see dragons on par with bipeds is if they are alloud to go to lvl 200, and thus matching biped's ability to reach a rating of 200 or so through multiclassing, since dragons are a multclass to begin with, and can't actually multiclass to achieve the rating.

[Dhalin]

I think they should add another Dragon Adventurer School or two to give old dragons something to do, and the new hatchies more room to pick and choose what kind of dragon they want to play. Personally, the way I'd do it is this:

DRAG: The "All-purpose" school. Leave this as it is.
DRGM: Dragon Mage. This school adds more offensive magic to the dragon's spell list. Note, that they would have to level DRGM to get the benefits it would bring, just like a Biped has to level multiple classes. I'd say give dragons access to DRGM at Lv20 DRAG.
DRGH: Dragon Healer. This school would add some honest-to-god Gift spells and buffs more than just True Grit and Promote Vitality. It would also add a Res in the higher levels, maybe at Lv50 and then a 2nd one at Lv100. Right now, only having 1 Res per hour at Lv100 is barely even worth mentioning. This school would also add *gasp* Heals to a dragon's repertoire(sp) as well.

Dragons can craft Any biped spell around. Dragons are supposed to be creatures of Magic.. and yet they have No Instant Heal spells? No Buffs other than Promote Vitality and True Grit? No Gift spells other than Dragon's Gift? Currently dragons always have to hunt down a biped and beg him/her for gifts. The few buffs a dragon does have (Spiked Scales, etc) pale in comparison to what a Biped can do. People say its because "Dragons only have one school".

I never asked for One and Only One school. Heck, if I could, I'd gladly Multiclass to get rid of some of these huge crutches dragons have in comparison to bipeds. Yes, dragons have gold rage. Yes, dragons have shield of gold. These abilities are powerful. But just about everything ELSE a dragon has, a Biped can do better. And to top it all off, our Adventure Rating caps at Lv100. Meanwhile, there are Lv180+ bipeds running around... combine that with the "mobs seek out lowest level member in the party" thing and....

Heck, if you think having Offensive Magic and/or Healing being too powerful when combined with Gold Rage, then weaken Gold Rage when its used by anyone but a DRAG. If a DRGM or DRGH uses Gold Rage, maybe it does a lot less damage to compensate for the extra spells?

--Dhalin

[pevil2000]

Please bear in mind my dragon is only lvl 58, and my biped is only 6 so i may not have enough experience here. But these are my thoughts.

Yes, Dragons should be stronger. Everyone knows in old myth that Dragons are hard to slay (unless you're a lone knight on a shining charger...) Of course we have to consider making it hard to get the power; no point having hundreds of dragons flying the skies and only 3 bipeds on each shard. Few possible ways:

1. As suggested, let us level up further. Dragons live longer than bipeds, so we have more time to develop. Add in further upgrades to our abilities (maybe only every 20 levels instead of every 10)

2. Leave us as we are but give us some better heals. One instant heal and a few breezes are ok, but not enough to truly help keep us alive against the really tough mobs

3. Give us more schools. Basically, have Dragon, Helian and Lunus. Dragon would pretty much be what we have now, good at everything but not great. Then you can EITHER join Helian OR Lunus. I'd say base this on RoP but dragons already at adult would probably not be happy. Perhaps give them the choice on first log-in to choose which they'd prefer and change their rop bonuses, dunno. They would certainly be prestige classes, available to adults only (maybe even only ancients?)

Anyhoo, Helian would basically get boosts to power and their magic abilities. These dragons would rely mainly on magic, gain more healing/damaging spells, maybe even some more buffs. Since the Helian breath is Ice, perhaps introduce a range of icy spells.

Lunus would of course be the opposite. boosts to TnC and melee abilities. Many more melee abilities, perhaps put in some Lightning based claw attacks and instead of more heals, give buffs that increase damage and maybe even a berserker type of mode.

These multiclasses would keep dragons busy for an extra 100 levels, and possibly even encourage more grouping (who wouldn't want a Helian if they can heal and vice versa)

[Gremblthrg]

I think the only way you are going to see dragons on par with bipeds is if they are alloud to go to lvl 200, and thus matching biped's ability to reach a rating of 200 or so through multiclassing, since dragons are a multclass to begin with, and can't actually multiclass to achieve the rating.

On par with? Most level 100 bipeds can't even kill as much as a level 100 dragon can already, and that's with multiclassing, unless they spend tons and tons of time levelling many support classes, and choose one of the most powerful main classes. Dragon armor is nearly on par with plate armor, they get more HP, and because hoard attacks recycle so fast, dragons have the highest DPS over time - bipeds CAN have higher burst damage, but have to wait several minutes for those attacks to recycle. On top of all that, if a dragon lands a Primal Vengeance on most mobs, the mob will do minimal damage at best, if not hit for 0 damage.

For example, I am a level 100 / rating 144, and can only kill one blight hound every 15 mins (with Iron Body up), and can barely scratch kwellen berserkers and the like. Funny how many dragons I've heard call the hounds easy, and many have been able to kill the berserkers.

And to get to the point I'm at, I have 600+ adventure levels, and get less xp per kill due to higher rating. If you really think the grass is that much greener as a biped, then try it yourself.

I realize this leads to a bigger issue of overall class balances, but that is an issue for another day; the devs have mentioned an adventure class review down the line, but there are higher priority things for them to work on first.

- Grem

[madrain]

I don't like the idea of lunus and helian being classes, because I'd like that to remain more of an RP choice (not sure I like the differences already, really), but I wouldn't mind seeing some specialization occur at older stages of Dragon life, to let adults specialize a bit, and then ancients specialize even further. I've never even had an adult dragon, so I'm just speaking hypothetically, but I am planning on playing a dragon once I'm back from vacation and it would be nice to have something a little nicer to look forward to. Dragons are love, but it would be nice to have some differences between dragons themselves besides crafting or not.

[pevil2000]

i can see that madrain, and understand it; I chose Lunus for mine based on the fact I'm melee-ing with her, rather than using spells, but she's still biped-friendly. I just kinda think that apart from the minor boosts you get to the different attributes, having two different rops for the factions are pretty pointless if theres going to be no difference.

Of course people choose the rops for different reasons (some coz 1 is easier, some for the combat type, some for the faction beliefs etc) but right now, if faction is only an rp thing (come on, theres not even any outward sign to other dragons that you're a Lunus or Helian) then the stat boosts are pointless as well.

Either way, even if it was Dhalins take on the classes that would be cool. I agree there need to be differences; another guildie of mine is fed up with his lvl 20something dragon because "why bother, all the rest of the guild are already ahead of me and i'll only be playing catchup", whereas with his biped he feels like he can fill a slot that is missing in the guild as we only have a few 'slaves' I also would like it; i intend to have my Lunus warrior (focusing on evasion and dex) a helian spellcaster (only using other abilities if necessary - probably wont work) and then *maybe* another Lunus who doesn't care if he gets hit but just charges in and does as much damage as he can. But i dont think they're gonna play very differently at all

[Dhalin]

They don't play very differently. Just about Every Single Dragon is but one of 3 carbon copies and 1 'extra':

1). The dragon who dumps everything into Strength/T&C. The "Warrior". He Gold Rages everything to death, uses only buff spells and breezes.

2). The dragon who dumps everything into Primal/Focus/Power/etc. They spam Improved Prime Bolts that are tech'd out the wazoo, along with their other spells.

3). The dragon who tries to get a happy medium but figures out, endgame, that they can't hit jack crap with their Gold Rages and their spells are missing like crazy, and probably will end up becoming #1 or #2.

4). The dragon who never bothered to get advice to what to point into training points, and dumps a lot of stuff into things like magic evasion, etc that don't help much.

If you are a dragon, you are probably one of those 4 things. Note that once you scribe spells and obtain claws/scales, the only thing that allows you to change between #1 and #4 is Training Point Distribution (this is what buy back points are for) and changing types of scales (Strength vs. Power/Focus scales, for instance).

Dragons are too much alike. Even the Path of the Lunus vs Path of the Helian is not going to make that much difference between two dragons...

--Dhalin

[Seranthor]

Show me a single classed L100 biped that can take out Umyarr, or show me a rating 100 biped that can do it then I MIGHT believe that dragons are underpowered.

Show me a biped of L95, or 95 rating that can take a dozen mith golems at the same time, defeat them all and survive and I MIGHT believe that dragons are underpowered.

Show me biped of L50, or a 50 rating that can solo a mith golem successfully and live, and I MIGHT believe that dragons are underpowered.

Dragons being underpowered is a myth, pure, plain and simple. As for those that continue this mantra of 'gimme gimme gimme' Gimme left the building, its not your turn anymore, let others have the dev focus that they deserve.

[Deth]

I have to pipe up here. What most people do not take into account is the really power dragons are the melee dragons with a Dragon tech scale. I choose not to use it and to be a more caster dragon and I am not as nearly powerful power as some seem to belive all dragons are. It is my personal choice to spec/gear up the way I do.

I may get flamed for this. If it would get people and TG to look at dragons again I would wish every Dragon tech scale and primal flashed spell, as that is the only tech I have, to decay to nothing and all the dragons with the tech to go away, I would. Those few Dragon tech scales are the most unbalancing things I have seen and balancing a class off a tech some have is not fair I thinlk.

[Vlisson]

Show me a single classed L100 biped that can take out Umyarr, or show me a rating 100 biped that can do it then I MIGHT believe that dragons are underpowered.

i never said that a lvl 100 biped is equal to a lvl 100 dragon ^^

but the advantage from a biped is that he CAN multiclass

i dont ask for more power for a lvl 100 dragon!

i ask that dragons can lvl unlimited and then earn more power

a biped who lvl up 3 schools to 100 need X exp

a dragon who lvls up his (only) school up to 120 will need X+Y exp so a dragon would have to invest more time/effort to get his power in comparison to a versatile biped

its a fact of power and a fact of boredom. I havent counted the month since im 100/100 without getting the amusement for earning a lvl or a new ability/power

would you say its unfair if a dragon would have to invest 3times of your effort to gain 5% more power then a biped?

edit: show me a dragon who is able to solo Umyarr without biped buffs, without anti umyarr scales (resistances/wards) with a good chance!!! 10:1?

[Seranthor]

i never said that a lvl 100 biped is equal to a lvl 100 dragon ^^

but the advantage from a biped is that he CAN multiclass

i dont ask for more power for a lvl 100 dragon!

i ask that dragons can lvl unlimited and then earn more power

a biped who lvl up 3 schools to 100 need X exp

a dragon who lvls up his (only) school up to 120 will need X+Y exp so a dragon would have to invest more time/effort to get his power in comparison to a versatile biped

its a fact of power and a fact of boredom. I havent counted the month since im 100/100 without getting the amusement for earning a lvl or a new ability/power

would you say its unfair if a dragon would have to invest 3times of your effort to gain 5% more power then a biped?

edit: show me a dragon who is able to solo Umyarr without biped buffs, without anti umyarr scales (resistances/wards) with a good chance!!! 10:1?

Thats good, because a L100 dragon far outshines a L100 biped.

And you get lots of 'free' skills from doing your ARoP... there is NO single class that has damage shield, the res, the insane amt of armor, and the other skills all bestowed for doing Arop. I'm not jealous of them, I'm saying you cant discount them as blithly as you do.

Thats right, a biped has to level multiple schools to get their skills and thusly their rating suffers for it. YOU can do as a single L100 class with a 100 rating far more than a biped with 1, 2 or maybe even 3 L100 classes, and oh, they get that AR penalty not to forget... a 3x100 biped has a rating of over 120.

your claim that a dragon that would go to 120 invests more time to get there than a 3x100 biped is bull... 1-100 is about 35M exp... so a 3x100 biped has invested 105M exp, where as you get the same or better for an investment of 35M.

As far as the Umy solo it doesn't matter how the L100 dragon does it he CAN do it. there is no way in the game a biped has a chance, not 10:1, not 100:1. its not possible.

[Vlisson]

why is this bull... that you have to invest more time to get lvl 101-120 than to lvl 3 times to 100?

if im correct than you need 2 millions of exp to get from 99 to 100

is this true?

if yes then you need at least 2,5 millions for lvl 101? if my insufficient mathematics estimates it correct then you need for lvl 101-120 more exp than for several lvl 100s (35 mill each)

i never said that dragons are weak :-) im really amazed what fights go easy for an ancient (with all the upgrades since release)

i would be happy if dragons wouldnt have changed since release and this powers would be divided between adults and ancients. hatchlings shall be weak, adults shall be stronger ^^

and i think an ancient should have the chance to get power (without multiclassing)

[Kulamata]

I have no problem at all with dragon capabilities; from a lore/RP standpoint, it is appropriate because they ARE dragons.

It has seemed fair to me that there might be a little compensation for the long, dark night of dragon weakness.... it takes quite a bit to "repay" the hoard leak, and increased hoard leak fiascos.

If dragons are nerfed, you just continue the cycle of leveling the table by cutting one leg at a time. I don't think that's a good game OR business strategy.

[Vlisson]

hmm if dragons will get more power than a biped then all call it unfair (me too ^^ )

so dragons should pay a price for this enhanced power

so my original question has been: should dragons own more power than a biped? compared in game time and effort (my dragon for example would be (if i could lvl up or multiclass) at least lvl 110 ^^

and if dragons would get more power (due to this effort) how should this be outwighted?

[Drakarr]

As a Lunus, who is one of your "carbon copies". iI would beg to differ. I put most into T&C, STR, and DEX, with enough into primal to cast all t5 spells (980). I've fought pretty much everything and, disregarding named event mobs, there is not much i cant obliterate, and quite handily too. GR hits most of the time, and between that and the other T&C T6 mobs die 1v1 so fast as to be laughable. As for primal, my spells dont miss too often, for being one who didn't chose the spell casting path. I can still kill groups of t6 mobs quite easily,(as long as said group dosnt have a shaman but uberpeds have problems with groups that have them too) thanks to breath of flame burst, which i think hugely closed the gap between dragons and caster peds in the way of multi mob killing.
IMHO, if dragons were much more powerful, they would bore me. Current mobs would provide no challenge (once again barring named event mobs). Then there would be nothing for me to do ingame but sit on my pile of hoard in my nearly finnished lair and whine in MP about innanities.

[Vlisson]

hehe you are true

but if you could lvl then you would have something to do

as lvl 100/100/100 with a built up lair there is no goal anymore!
a biped can lvl up every school having some time of fun

edit: and i dont talk about how powerfull a dragon shall become, only how

i think it would be ok if dragons can have the same health and maybe the same armor, maybe a bit more ^^

[Seranthor]

why is this bull... that you have to invest more time to get lvl 101-120 than to lvl 3 times to 100?

if im correct than you need 2 millions of exp to get from 99 to 100

is this true?

if yes then you need at least 2,5 millions for lvl 101? if my insufficient mathematics estimates it correct then you need for lvl 101-120 more exp than for several lvl 100s (35 mill each)

i never said that dragons are weak :-) im really amazed what fights go easy for an ancient (with all the upgrades since release)

i would be happy if dragons wouldnt have changed since release and this powers would be divided between adults and ancients. hatchlings shall be weak, adults shall be stronger ^^

and i think an ancient should have the chance to get power (without multiclassing)

99 to 100 is 1.25M exp sir. please, for your own sake run the numbers BEFORE you ask folks to take your side in an arguement.

You've also failed to explain why dragons alone should have their level cap raised.

[Valornyx]

I don't think the issue is that dragons are underpowered - we're not. With teched scales (as an ancient with flame burst) I could take out a field of fire opal golems using dragon AoE spells - back when there was a field of fire opal golems. I can solo Umyaar without biped buffs. In short - I can do an awful lot that a single L100 biped cannot.

I think the point is more that once you reach this point, there is next to nothing more to do from and adventure side as a dragon - in terms of progressing.

Yes we can make more sets of scales, and amass more money, but that gets old after a while, and I have 9 sets of T5 scales now. We can spend time building our lairs - but that does not appeal to everyone. We can sit back and wait to be called into service in RoP or ARoP or to fight an event mob - but that's what it is - waiting.

I combat this by playing my multiple bipeds and starting new little hatchlings and building my lair and plots, and spending time helping new players and lots of other things. I'm not saying that I have nothing to do - but there is nowhere much to go once you reach ancient - and I think that perhaps that is the problem which is behind this issue.