there are some very agressive posters here at the board (good that they are a very small minority but they reply to all threads ^^)
i think similar minded people are everywhere and you had been lucky to get friendly responses from everyone
Some of you may remember me being very against irc when they first started using it as the main base for discussion. I have been an avid irc user but not with this community. Efnet is a great place and home to me. Some of my friends say I was on irc the day after it was created. Yes I am that old. It can be a strange place indeed and logs can be faked bullies can win every argument if they know how to control it. The famous irc wars of years back needed to have strong and well irc informed people to make them winners.
But to get back on the subject. I found and it is even posted in one of the threads that some people would get special help when they sent in support tickets. One even stated that every ticket he sent in was always taken care of by Amon and very speedy at that. Yet others would need to wait days if not weeks for theirs just to get read. This doesn't surprise me in the least. I stated it would happen way back when and it did.
DB's biggest mistake was listening to the people in irc and not making the forums the major disscussion area. Once you start listening to the few and ignore the bigger part of your game base bad things start to happen. We are starting to see this and the major irc users don't like it. Will I warned all of you and devs about irc now you must reap the spoils.
My biggest and most important advice I can give to all the devs of Tulga including DB is never use the irc like you did here it will only lead you back down the wrong track once again.
Stratics uses irc the right way, hold some controlled chats get the answers but don't just use the questions from people in the irc chat but compile questions from the forums then proceed with the chat.
In ending irc and Tulga was a bad thing I just hope lessons were learned from it and we all move on to the only right way a gaming site should be run.
BKB, this topic comes across to me as follows:
There's a new constable in town and you are one of the first running around and yelling, "Burn the Witch! Burn the Witch!" I've been in IRC about as many times as you, since that makes one an IRC Guru, I have this to say:
I disagree with nearly all of your assumptions and exagerations.
Sheesh
Bulgrim
Putter'er of Crafts and Near Miss-Adventurer on Chaos
Guild Leader - Council of War
C.O.W. : "Milking the WA Daily....fear the cow"
<Hal`cyon> This, my people, is our new owner.
Hal'cyon has been trashing EI in-game as well, encouraging people to quit, thereby sending a message to EI to retain 'all' of Tulga's staff.
His days in this game are numbered.
I am going to strongly side with BKB on this one. I would favor completly removing IRC as a comunication method between the players and the Devs. IRC is far too exclusive of a method of comunication. True, anyone can go there. But IRC is intimidating to non tech-savy players, and even some of thoes who do use it (like me) would rarely go there anyway, or simly didn't want to leave it running all the time so you can catch a tidbit of information or have the privlige of directly asking a question.
There has always been a pervasive negative attitude about IRC in game and on the forums. If the devs are going to be sharing info and soliciting ideas, it should be done from a place where the most players possible are. Idealy, in game. Too much information would go out in IRC and never reach the larger public. Too many times could you end up in a situation confused about changes that just happened in game, only to be told that "Oh yeah, they told us about that in IRC a few weeks ago." I would be glad to see this system abolished.
Lumineux Talar
In game would also be a bad place for new info. The forums are the best place to have it. It will reach all people including people wanting to understand everything going on with and in the game. It is the business way of helping to bring new blood into the game.
Plus once it is put in writing you can hold the developer to how the game will become.
On echoes....
Originally Posted by Ophelea
Ophelia Lady. My words are but the whisper of a forgotten wind, and it is meet that they be lost or found as suits the seeker. And if wisdom is found in but one, then know it is but the wisdom of the reader, misplaced and found once more.
I am the least of draku. Fell I did, Fallen I was found, Judged I was and by Oath Bound.
BUT THAT WHICH I AM, I AM.
Might it be the worlds we know have changed? It might indeed. Indeed, it must be so, new gods or old, for else we die the True Death. But does that mean that we must be else that we are? Have been?
It is a rare thing we bear, this manner we call Community. Must all agree with each word of the other? Not ever so. Is it that there is never word of ill or curse or woe cast between us? Pfah. The spirits we bear are as flawed as any and that is both trial and glory. But we have been, we may yet be a thing of life and growth and indeed of virtue.
I do not say this god is better or worse than that. I do not speak that this land's tomorrow is more of weal or woe than some other tide, or that there may come things that some find ill and some find of joy... I say WE ARE BETTER THAN WE SHOW OURSELVES TO BE.
And if we are not, then mayhap it may not be we are not who we were. Mayhap we never were so, and that would be sorrow beyond count.
If this land passes, if this dream is no more, then the greatest loss and the greatest gain would be those I have walked among and those who have suffered my walking. If ye must seek to take that thing away from me, thenn know this. Draku are not easily swayed, and that thing I take to me I hold with tooth and claw and word. And above all, spirit.
Ophelia Lady, if is farewell I must bid thee, then know that woe is made of worth by each second ye were not gone, and each manner of thy deeds and words. To those other gods, the David, the Semglor, the Amon, the Baela, the many others... If I have danced, it is because of the music ye caused to be played. To those gods new among us, know this. Ye take hold of a thing that was crafted by itself. It is both mighty and fragile, for it is of the spirits and the voices of those that are its blood. Ye set the mount in which it sits, but its care is its own.
In words part of mine and part of mine avatar...
WE ARE THE GIFTED. WE ARE THE HORIZONS COMMUNITY. THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN CHANGE OR DESTROY THAT, SAVE OUR OWN WHINING, CARPING, FAWNING, COMMITTED, PASSIONATE, GLORIOUS, PATHETIC SELVES.
That which we are, we are. Now, this tide, this day, let us find what that is.
My words are but the whisper of a forgotten wind. Let them be lost or found as suits the seeker.
I remain...
Sephiranoth, called by some ShadowSeeker
Drakonis of Order
Thunder to the Lightning
Nobody and Nothing ever, save the Five do Feast
When I spoke with DarkEnigmaa yesterday about IRC, I made it clear, as did others, that we did not desire IRC as the ONLY form of communication with the devs. I really don't care if the devs come into IRC for more than a meeting with the players or something, if that even.
But I do not want to see our IRC server taken away because of the suspicions of what the now PREVIOUS devs may or may not have done. (For the record, I do not believe that the things being stated in this thread actually happened...)
IF the new owners decide not to continue the IRC server for the players, so be it. I have no doubt we will find another IRC sever for our community to congregate outside of game. If I had never been to IRC, I would not have the Unity, Blight, or Order friends that I do.
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EI Interactive does not "own" the server where the #horizons channel is hosted, as I understand it. They have no control over it what so ever, in other words.
If they are smart, they will use IRC as one of many methods of communication between new developers and players. Not the only one, of course, but as a method. Implying that IRC is somehow a place for a few favorite fanbois for developers and players to communicate is no more accurate than saying that the guild which the character DANU belongs to on Chaos server will not have special treatment. (And yes, DANU does belong to a guild.)
In order to communicate with as many players as possible, they must use various avenues to be a presence in the community. Four people, which is what I understand the new development team to be, can only be in so many places at once. Should they attempt to gather all their communication from impromptu meetings in New Trismus on the live servers, they are no more collecting an valid survey of player opinions than they are by solely listening to those players who are in IRC. The sample sizes are too small to be statistically valid given the size of the community.
However, a combination of in game chats at random times in order to read a varied player base, IRC discussions, and forum posts should give them a broad perspective on players feelings in regards to various topics. If you truly feel that they should not use IRC as a means of communication with players, then you also feel they should not come in game and talk with them, they should not read forum posts, nor attempt any other single means of communication. All pull too small a sample size to be at all valid.
And (Ophelea's probably going to get mad at me for saying so, but here goes)... I have to agree with Hal'cyon that the official announcements made by the new owners to seem lacking in professionalism. If Mr. Andercheck is unable to write clearly and most basic rules of English grammar and spelling in his official posts, then he should request that someone from his marketing department proof read and make corrections for him. Doing so shows that he cares not just about what he is saying, but how he is saying it. That he has taken the time to present himself in the most professional manner he can. I proof read most everything I've ever posted on a public forum because I care about presenting myself at my best. And for the record, I have suggested this to Mr. Andercheck. And I am not at all suggesting that his impromptu communications with players such as in game or in IRC should be proofread, that is different. But his official communications to players... those are another matter, in my opinion.
As I recall, for persons in the Montana timezone, it was rather late in the evening when he concluded his IRC chat and then went on to draft and post his first letter to the "community".
It was also Friday evening, a time when most people are, hopefully, off work.
I think his letter was to try to get the word out, as quickly as possible, to a nervous community, that they had no intent to make sweeping changes to the game.
I very much doubt that gaming magazines frequent our boards.
As the new owner, and as a fellow gamer, he threw something together because of the widespread panic and concerns.
If you want to pick at professionalism, why not leave it at the fact that his company is profitable, the original owners ran Horizons into the ground. Subscriptions were lost in the droves as changes and performance issues alienated more and more people.
Why not examine Horizon's performance a few months from now and let that be your gauge for how professional someone is.
This is, again, members of the IRC crew speaking, criticizing and trying to undermine the new ownership--to the point of encouraging in game players to leave.
I think that comparing some of the posts in this thread to a witch hunt is fairly apt. Here are some other things that this 'elitist clique' has done:
Apprised the team of issues with the servers following maintenance or updates, often right after the servers came up.
Brought billing or gameplay issues mentioned on the forums or in game to the direct attention of the people who could solve the problem.
Relayed information between people in-game and the Tulga team on urgent issues and arranged real-time assistance for players who were stuck, had broken quests, needed technical support, or had other issues that required WM assistance, enabling the team to respond immediatly to those players issues.
Provided feedback on ideas and proposals, just as on the forums, only faster. Anyone who thinks the people who spent a lot of time in IRC were agreeing with everything suggested by the team is either ignorent or deluded. Yes, good ideas were met with agreement, just as in this forum. Bad ideas were met with arguments and alternative suggestions - just as in this forum.
IRC should not - nor has it ever been - the primary means of communication between the developers and the players. It served as the primary real-time means of communication since Horizons has never had an active, full-time, in-game GM presence.
If EI is indeed interested in player feedback, an active presence in a Horizons IRC channel will be a huge asset to that effort. In-game contact, forum presence, IRC, email - all of them have their place and should be used.
Klaus Wulfenbach
Mithril Council, Chaos
"Death is fleeting. Pride is forever."
"Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-- Abraham Lincoln
I have recently started using IRC because it was request by Reyem that I did so to resolve a problem I was having in game. I find most people in there to be rather helpful. Not rude and harsh. I'll most likely be sticking around in there. Its nice to be able to talk to players on other shards, since I play on Order.
I see far more negitivity on these boards than i have seen in IRC in the week i've been in there. Even WITH the devs dissapearing. This whole thread in my opinion is nothing but an attack. I can't believe it wasn't modded. It should have been. If you want to tattle tale on people, do it in PMs. Not in the forums.
This space for sale or rent. PST for pricing.
I find parts of this thread laughable and filled with innuendos and half truths
I agree there exists a small maybe even minute traces of truth it some of the wilder statements, To me I have seen overalll very little of the supposed favoritism that i read about what i do see is a lot of anger distrust and well lets be honest here hurt that results in lashing out at pervieved slights. Then again the vocal minority do not in any real fashion represent the majority of players. I find the wild and totally unsubstantiated "truths" that some people are stating as "proof positive" is simply not there if you want to win a battle its far better to have hard evidence and absolute proof rather then sly,vieled and, intentional mis statements or mis-quotes.Sadly what i am seeing for the most part in this entire thead amounts to a temper tantrum being thrown by a very small and immature child, because they didnt get what they want.
Honestly no one player or even smal group of players have the kind of power some people seem to think they do, the developers may act upon a suggestion by a player or group if they as developers see it in the best intrest of the game or that it is a valid idea and goes along with the current vision but to say the click is in control is not honest.
Last edited by Vandellia; July 22nd, 2006 at 04:25 PM.
Given enough time and the proper temperament anything doable in game is possible
Confectioner first last and always
Congrats BK i've finally broken down and created a forum account.
I've sat through IRC sessions for more days than i can count. Took a long break and came back to IRC last night for the new owner's "meeting" that I only heard of through word of mouth.
To those of you who state that the IRC chats are nothing but love... You're absolutely and 100% right. As long as you shut up and don't say anything, until you're name gets on "the list" or as long as you don't approach any touchy subjects OR as long as your nick doesn't happen to be one of the lesser liked names in Istaria.
If you come up with anything that opposes the status quo, then depending on the overall attitude in IRC at the time, you may very well be confronted with a barrage of put downs, snide remarks, etc.
The only 2 people that I can recall having "civil" disagreements with were PJ and Steelclaw. The rest, seemed to scared to even explore any dramatic suggestions or concerns. And if it was an issue that was brought up, there was the occasional "get a better computer".
To the topic of removing IRC ... it's not really an option, from what I can gather. Therefore, I'd urge the new dev team to seriously examine the possibilities of in game communications. This will sound tacky but, I don't pay a monthly fee to be told to go to an IRC chat if I want my issues to be looked at sooner.
IRC should never have circumvented the trouble ticket system.
For those worried about "Well what about the Order shard?": I'd encourage the Dev's to include this in examining in game communications. Perhaps a channel that bridges the shards for communication only (feel free to flame, but just an example suggestion).
This is a time to improve the system. All over. And if improving the system means taking close relations with the devs away from certain individuals ... I'm all for it. Close relations with devs (in my opinion) should never be public knowledge.
Some will say that close relations to devs is important for "the Community". My guess, though, is that the very same person probably HAS a close tie to a dev. Close ties to particular individuals will and has already, cause disention in among the playerbase.
Can't think of anyone else so I'm gonna go back to actually playing the game.
Uhm maybe this is a stupid question, but when I search the boards for the IRC details I get hundreds of results and cannot find the one I need.
Can somebody please give me the details of this IRC channel? When I use the stickied one by Entilzah from last year, I only always end up in an empty #Tazoon channel.
Susan - Lvl 85 Tink and many, many other crafting classes
Andarielle - Lvl 100 Adv / Lvl 100 Cra Dragoness
Former ICE
It's on the front page, not on the forum. Here:
http://community.istaria.com/pg.php/irc_connection
You're looking at now. Everything that happens now is happening now.
Incessantly prodding Gezsera while getting rid of hibernation hangover.
As a means of communicating with the devs, IRC should be shot down, burned, and thrown in the trash.
The forums work. Anyone, of any time zone, can communicate with the devs right here. Players can read dev info/ideas at their leisure, and the same with devs accessing player input (when they're not busy coding).
Make it accessible to everyone.
I will say this get gaim and join the irc its just an alternative and from my very long term view not the villan you seem to be making it out.
then again maybe you want to have an axe to grind to support your position
Given enough time and the proper temperament anything doable in game is possible
Confectioner first last and always
Trying to get this thread back on track re the discussion of IRC keep it or toss it... Here is some food for thought:
In my game development cycle we used IRC/MSN to communicate 24/7 but that was due to most of the team being spread all over NA and europe. HOWEVER: as soon as the game client was working with the servers we switched 80% of our dev work to ingame chat. Why? Lots of reasons but mostly because it gave us a chance to eliminate 2 pieces of software from our dev tools (we already usually had 5-6 memory intensive progs running including VC studio, 3D modelling apps, Scripting tools etc) and it allowed us to interact directly with testers actually IN the game. Rather than tabbing around and asking a question then tabbing back etc..
My 2 cents is that I found it far more effective to be in 1 place at one time rather than pretending I could be effectively in 2 places all the time.
IMO forums are the place to gather feedback and ingame is the place to have player discussions probably along the lines of in game house of commons sessions or council meetings..
Take it for what you will
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