To the New Owners re: IRC and the boards

[BKBanzai]

Very true Kalamata and Spartikus. Kalamata's insight on the IRC circle of feeding back to the devs what they wanted to hear, and them belitting the people that came into IRC opposing their opinions is one of the reasons that a good number of players refuse to go into IRC.

There were some few objective players in there, or there just because that was the ONLY source of information of upcoming changes, however, for the most part, it was a mob of pro-TG supporters who basically fed the devs their view of how the game should be, and vice versa.

There NEVER was any attempt to get widespread feedback or suggestions on game direction. Rather a "focus group" largely of players that lived in IRC and already had similar view points were the ones that "spoke" for the player base as a whole.

As far as special favors, I recall a member of IRC that had a rather remote plot, get a "personal" landing pad, right next to her plot, when far larger communities didn't. I believe she "kissed David" for giving her her own pad in IRC.

I also know of a player that said she could get IP addresses from a dev to verify someone's identity. This player also had "knowledge" of the contents of a plot up for auction that she bid on. She also mentioned she could find out what alts a particular character had.

That sounds pretty much like special treatment to me, and I, for one, am relieved that the ownership has changed hands and really hope that this type of behavior is no longer condoned and/or allowed.

[Ankua Daru]

I am speaking to the original poster and thier ilk who complain about irc. Sorry, I should have been clearer with my statements. Irc is in no means perfect and for that matter niether am I. I just felt I had to speak up with all the accusations about people in irc. I am only commenting about the times I was in irc. They may have been abused by someone there when I was not logged in. If so, I am sorry you had to go through that experience. When something was not working or had a problem the staff was always professional and treated me with respect. Of course I always wait and see if a conversation is going before I speak up with my concerns. Most people in irc want to help it is not an elite group of people getting favors from staff. I hope this clears up any questions of my last post.

[BKBanzai]

What makes me sad is the tone of this thread and many others.

This is not the Horizons Community I spent the last 3 months supporting.

This is not the Horizons Community I was proud of.

And I am ashamed.

But read back and ignore the content of this thread and many others and pay attention to the tone and then ask yourself: Is this what Horizons is about?

Then you spent too much time in IRC and on the boards and never realized how much the majority of the people in IRC acted like they were the sole voice of Horizons.

As a member of the TG staff, how could you not have realized the disatisfaction over the control the IRC base had over the direction of the game? That theirs were the only voices heard? That they "spoke" for all the subscribers.

Perhaps you were misled, or never looked outside of IRC to find the rest of the community of Horizons.

[Amadan]

Then you spent too much time in IRC and on the boards and never realized how much the majority of the people in IRC acted like they were the sole voice of Horizons.

As a member of the TG staff, how could you not have realized the disatisfaction over the control the IRC base had over the direction of the game? That theirs were the only voices heard? That they "spoke" for all the subscribers.

Perhaps you were misled, or never looked outside of IRC to find the rest of the community of Horizons.

IRC was by no means the only 'voice' I know for fact Amon reads every single post on these forums and listens to everyone.... Amon is pretty awesome, I wish he could be cloned.

[BKBanzai]

I lurk in irc at times and I see the people complaing actually are the most abusive posters in irc. Thats just my personal observation. I am sorry you felt like an outcast but please look how you behave while you were there. You attacked the people in irc in your post just as you do in irc and then complain when they differ with your opinion. Please look at what you say and ten to one you will see why you get the response you do. Irc is not perfect but it is a useful communication tool. Thats just my two cents sorry if I offended you.

I've been in IRC perhaps a total of 5 times. Tonight was a rare occasion as I had heard that the new owners were speaking there and I wanted to hear their plans for the game (as do most players).

I wanted to give a glimpse of the nature of what transpires in IRC, and used to with the development team and the moderators allowing this behavior. This time it happened AFTER the new ownership left the channel, whereas before, it would have occurred blatantly in front of TG and been allowed, perhaps even laughed at and agreed with.

[Menkure]

waitaminute.. you have been throwing around blatant accusations around here in this thread, accusing the developers of showing favoritism to others, giving special privelages.. all of this happening on their IRC server.

And now you just state you have only been in IRC "perhaps a total of 5 times"...



5 times, out of.. what.. almost two years it's been up?



And you talk about other people's credibility...



Sheesh.

[LexDivinia]

As far as special favors, I recall a member of IRC that had a rather remote plot, get a "personal" landing pad, right next to her plot, when far larger communities didn't. I believe she "kissed David" for giving her her own pad in IRC.

ROFLMAO!!!
I find it amazing how you honestly believe that.
I wonder how many times I "kissed" David in IRC? As well as other devs and players... And for things much less and much greater than a landing pad.
(And if I remember correctly, that wasn't the ONLY landing pad placed in game during that patch, but if I am wrong, please PM and let me know. This thread isn't about me or the gifts YOU think were bestowed on players... so I shall not continue it here. But will be more than happy to rehash this AGAIN, just as we did in Marketplace oh so long ago.)

[Senkeleron Fell]

For a week I've had to sit and watch speculation, and not say anything.

Since I entered IRC - after the news was sent to the press - to let the players there know what was going on and posted here in the forums, I've watched these boards, and not said anything.

I've read forums on other sites; I've received emails.


And I am truly and honestly sad.

Not because of the sale of the game; not because of the loss of the team; not because my team may no longer work with this player base - though all of those items do sadden me.

What makes me sad is the tone of this thread and many others.

This is not the Horizons Community I spent the last 3 months supporting.

This is not the Horizons Community I was proud of.

And I am ashamed.

Perhaps that's harsh. Perhaps I have no right to say it. Perhaps I'm being unprofesssional.

Perhaps none of the above is true and I do have the right, it isn't harsh and of all the people I am in a unique position to make this statement.

But read back and ignore the content of this thread and many others and pay attention to the tone and then ask yourself: Is this what Horizons is about?

I am also very embarassed by most of the behavior on the forum reguarding this sale, the knee-jerk reactions and name calling, wild speculations with no facts, throwing blame here and there. I guess we may not have been the patient, well behaved community that you thought we were :-)

[Steelclaw]

I'd like you to substantiate your claims.

(1) oppose their game suggestions
(2) complain about in game issues, such as performance, bugs while instead focusing on the interests and changes driven by their core fan-base (in irc).

Furthermore, complaints and opposition are very healthy. Devs are people. People make mistakes. These mistakes need to be pointed out and a resolution created.

The discussions that go on in realtime about the game can often explore dynamics, hidden side effects and alternatives that a single mind or even a team would overlook. Forums are too slow for this sort of phenomenon,
and it can not by any means be captured in an in-game poll.

You also neglect that there are well known members of the in-game community who hang out there, share news and provide feedback.

Furthermore, you seem to be misled that devs were doing personal favors for players who frequented irc. What were these favors? Consider, for a moment, that maybe suggestions were discussed in a rational manner and implemented because they could stand on their own merit.

[BKBanzai]

IRC was by no means the only 'voice' I know for fact Amon reads every single post on these forums and listens to everyone.... Amon is pretty awesome, I wish he could be cloned.

I have always respected Amon and I liked Manga too, good sense of humor on him. I also liked a number of his ideas, in fact, the more positive changes came out of Manga as I recall; he wasn't so into nerfing and increasing grind.

I do not exclude you from this Amadan, only that I do not know much of your ideas regarding the future of the game, and therefore I cannot say anything one way or another.

Amon was frequently the ONLY person on the team that seemed to make an effort to resolve bugs and performance issues (on the boards). I'm sure others worked hard to fix things, but he was the only one that took a personal interest and responded (99% of the time).

I will say that on the shards and in IRC, frequently if anyone complained about performance, or increased lag from a patch, the "circle" would start ragging on that person's computer. I've heard comments like, "well that's cause you have a POS Dell, etc." To me, it was an attempt to deflect attention away from bugs and performance issues introduced by some patch or other and keep making the devs feel like divine beings.

The mutual flattery that went on in IRC was quite over the top and hindered progress.

[LexDivinia]

And how many times have you been in IRC to witness this?

[Menkure]

he said earlier he was in IRC a total of maybe 5 times, Lex..

*rolls eyes*

[BKBanzai]

Only enough times to realize that TG had it's fanbase in IRC and that anyone that spoke out about game issues got quickly shut down in there.

As far as the jibes about people's computers, that happens in the public channels and has occurred in IRC the few times I've gone in there.

Those few times was enough to show me that trying to have a voice in IRC was futile with the wall of avid TG supporters.

This thread is starting to look like IRC, only with delay, instead of 25 people jumping on you all at once.

[Guaran]

What a bunch of complaints.

And really pointless if the new owners live up to their words.

BEFORE they answered questions in IRC, they were IN GAME in new trismus, interviewing players, asking questions, looking for feedback.

After that, they did the same for IRC.

I don't see anyone being left out, favored, or anything like has been suggested here. This whole argument sounds just like the complaints about a 'focus group' that used to be used in the same way. If there was a focus group in IRC, I never saw it. There was a bouncing of ideas sometimes. That's about it. There's no evidence of this causing harm to the game. Contrary it could have helped. Only the dev's will know that, not some speculative rumour.

Give it some time to see what becomes of things. I'll admit I'm uneasy myself regarding recent developments. Time will tell.

[Menkure]

You know, that's really funny.. because I had a lot of issues with monks/disciples... major bugs and issues, that I did take to IRC...

And you know, I did get yelled at by a few.. a couple of them were dragon players (Kumu comes to mind)..

And it was pointed out many times that, because monks and disciples were the absolute least played classes, that their issues should be at the bottom of the list.. with dragons way way on top.. After all, you prioritize and fix those things that affect the most players before you fix things that only affect maybe one or two.. right?

And yet, with the stuff I brought up.... and getting cut down by a couple of players.. the devs did listen to me, and there were a lot of fixes that went into the game that centered around the monk schools.

Why? Because I handled myself very professionally.. I didn't attack or harrass the devs.. I didn't insist that this get fixed or that get fixed or I would take me and my guild of 1000+ people and leave..

I approached the devs as people.. real people.. because that was what they are.

And they did listen.


And I read your thread.. listen to your accusations here.. and I'm beginning to see why you weren't taken seriously...

Oh.. wait.. since I'm the only Flame Disciple.. I guess that because the devs fixed many of the bugs belonging to my school.. that I was shown favoritism..

*rolls eyes*

[Steelclaw]

[QUOTE:BKBanzai] I've been in IRC perhaps a total of 5 times[/QUOTE]

That would explain why you are misinformed and very vague in your descriptions.

Don't dump out the punch bowl just because you spilled some on yourself.

[Ankua Daru]

I just reread the conversation after Danu_EI left irc. If you are referring to the conversation with Tagal he was not jumped on. Actually you said nothing during this time period. People were just disagreeing with Tagal. Yes both sides were animate in thier opinion but in no way abusive. If disagreeing with you is abusive then yes I am guilty as charged. Is it alright to voice my opinion if you don't agree with it? I think you are blowing this out of poportion. Sorry if I disagree with you offends you.

[Kulamata]

I think there's been a misunderstanding Guaran. The comments about IRC refer to the previous way in which it was run, not tonight. The comments about the way IRC was in the past were to illustrate why it might be preferable to take opinions from other sources as well.

Incidentally, my comments about the closed loop were not intended to refer only to IRC, as it occurred on the boards as well.

And finally, in this little grab bag, I agree completely about Amon. He did indeed seek out a wide range of opinions, and listened to them with an open mind.

[Spartikus]

He even braved the VNBoards *shudder* on many occasions and had his toes in the fire.

The way I look at it is this.. If you want to REALLY know how good or bad somethign is your best bet is to take it to your worst critic. Get the worst possible views of your proposals and such and if you can streamline all the concerns from your worst critics then there is no question your results cant be anything but stellar =)

Going to a group of your biggest fanatics and asking them if your idea is any good... well that wont has the same results in my books =)

[madrain]

Eh..

I went on IRC for a few nights in a row, some months ago. Full nights every night. I have no idea who the regulars were, not being a regular myself.. but..

I basically did nothing but complain. I complained about the SCUD missiles that dryads shoot when they use their tiny bows. I complained about Satyrs having missing chain armor, so it looks like a face running about with legs and arms.

Noone jumped on my throat or accused me of being a troll. People did their best to explain to me what (though little) discussion had been done in the past months on the issues I brought up, and a few told me about other fixes they were giving priority to at the moment.

Maybe I was just extremely lucky, but I doubt it. I would imagine there is a fair bit of exaggeration present in whatshisname's post.

All that aside, I like the presence of both IRC and these forums, and hope that the new devs will keep checking in here. Try to get a dev respond to something on the WoW or Sony forums - it won't happen. I've seen tons of posts by devs here, and I love it. Holding small in-game meetings is nice, but they did say "small" in their chat last night. Not every player is going to be able to fit into a tiny area of New Trismus and have their voice heard, especially with the lag of the game as well as other technical issues like draw distancing.

IRC and the Forums are places where EVERY player can have a voice. If they choose not to, they can hardly harp and crow about it.