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Thread: General Conjurer thoughts...

  1. #1

    Default General Conjurer thoughts...

    It seems like I am coming full circle. I started as an Ice Disciple, and couldn't cut it, went through SpiritD, Guardian, and now with Conjurer I am coming back to Ice spells as my most powerful casting ability hehe....

    Some general thoughts:

    I LOVE this class as a supplemental class.

    Spells:
    It's major spell categories are Ice, Summoning, and then to a lesser degree, flame. Since there are only 2 summoning spells, and those are generally LONG casting times, close range, and mediocre power for the casting times I think that those can be ignored. (I'm NOT an arcane caster so please let me know if I'm missing the 'ultimate combo' here).

    Ice has some useful general utility spells. For instance, it has 2 roots , one of which allows you to hit the monster at range while it stays rooted, though it DOES give THEM a fire buff , another is an evasion debuff which is nice for meleers. Main problem is I am generally a Mystic caster, so I only get ice Shackles and bolts that transfer.

    Flame, well.. it's flame. Bombs and DoTs. Nice for those long combats if the damage procs.

    Overall the bombing abilities for these two skills is impressive.

    Skills:
    The DOWNFALL, is that compared to Mage, the skills you get are NOT worth it. You get 10 Summon, 10 Ice, 9 flame.... Mages get 8 Summon, 9 ice, 10 flame, 10 energy, 8 mind, MUCH more flexible. Conj. SHOULD get 10 to each of the ones they can cast at least, if not 11 to Summon and Ice just to make up for the lack of Mind/Energy.

    To top it off, Mage also gets 10 Armour use (keeping you in the best of cloth armour), and also 10 Magic evasion. Conj definitely gets the short end of the stick here. So Mages get 3 Energy, Ice, and flame bombs so farming as a Mage is the way to go. In addition they get Mind's debuffs and crowd control , and energy's stun techs to add to the mix.

    Shining Blades... LOOKS great BUT have been hunting for over a week now for a set of bottle caps. It's horrible and frustrating enough I opened a ticket to make sure that it's 'as intended'. I have gained over 12 levels (65-77 and counting) at just 2000 xp a kill... that's a LOT of kills, thousands..... The problem will be when I get it since I think it only does around 200 damage, and probably 'as designed' or 'bugged' depending on how you think about it, to be physical Slash damage. Meaning all those melee mobs out there just shake it off. In action I have seen it do around 170-220 damage, but that might just be the mobs we smacked.

    If you are looking for damage, go with Ice bomb V Blades does have flash though. Shame too, I spent a LOT less effort (less than a week solid hehehe) and got more story/satisfaction out of the Dark Cyclone Quest, and that does around 300-350 damage a cast, which is significant.

    Abilities:

    Most are powered by Flame or Ice Elements, you get 8 every 15 minutes, then you have to resummon another 8. Don't die on your first pull or you'll end up waiting a while for it to become available again hehe.
    Dancing Rapiers: For me, my entire build is towards damage avoidance. So the dancing rapiers makes me darn near untouchable while it's up. The problem is if I get hit for 200 pts or so it goes away and needs to be recast. Doesn't transfer. Uses 1 ice element.

    Quills: A WEAK WEAK damage shield, Only lasts 20 hits. Takes 1 ice element. I think Quills IV against level 70 warrior types only does around 70-100 damage a hit. COmpare that to Pulsing spectrum at almost 200, there is no comparison, and then there is the recasting every 20 hits. Doesn't transfer. Has a class level restriction to cast it on others.

    Pheonix Rising, A moderate AoE bomb. Short recycle, doesn't transfer. Equivalent to about 2 bombs of the appropriate level.

    Pheonix Shield:
    I call this the Pheonix Hug, it's essentially a 'spirit walk' that negates the next attack. Doesn't transfer. Uses 1 flame element, so if you use this once a pull, better not kill more than say 5 monsters every 15 minutes hehe since you also have to power:

    INFIX FURY: DOES transfer, and really did make a difference. At level 1 it's like a +10 flame damage add to each hit. Pretty nice. Lasts around 25 attacks at level 1. +5 damage and +10 additional hits per 'tier' or so. One of my main reasons for taking this class. Uses a flame element

    Ice Barrier : Actually starts making a significant difference in my damage at around III or so. Does transfer, a nice little buff. Uses 1 Ice element.

    Multicast: It's the mage equivalent of MultiStrike. If you take Conjurer to 90 you transfer Multicast II out of it. VERY nice ability. Though, for some reason there's a 'hole' I would think that Multicast IV SHOULD fit in at around level 94-100 or so. Would give Conjurer a distinct advantage for a change over a Mage for the initial Alpha strike if the Summon spells were actually worth the time.

    Overall:
    An incredibly weak solo class, but the transferables make it useful for melee oriented multiclasses. Getting Flame/Ice gives you Ice/Flame Attacks which increases your flexibility in combat against mobs resistant against say, crush like golems. And increased damage against their vulnerable monsters. The Ice Bolts would be good for drawing and the shackles would give you a little crowd control.

    Also many of the monsters seem to not have a particular resistance to Ice which is nice. I think that there were so few ice casters since there were no bolts initially that they never went in and customized the Ice resists when they went through and gave all the mobs their 'buff' and Ethereal armour and Nature/Energy/Flame resists. (The 'rebalance'.) I think the addition of Ice Bolts makes it a bit easier to 'live' as a Conjurer main, but still comes a little short of the mark. I would feel like a mage 'lite'. The use of 'elementals' (you get 8 every 15 minutes) to power your abilities is unique, but ends up being more annoying than useful, since you have to keep recasting, especially during the longer combats.

    I will take away Infix II, Multicast 2, ice barrier I and the ice bolts from this multiclass. Since I deal with fast hits, the Damage ADD as opposed to a delay adjusted is a nice touch. Multi II is great for Dark Cyclones or the initial alpha strike on pulling a big scary mob.

    -HratLi
    (NOT a caster, but just a review from a Meleer's prospective.)
    Last edited by HratLi; July 24th, 2006 at 07:46 PM.

  2. #2

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    this is a wonderful and accurate summary. conjurors certainly have their place in a group. It's a shame they lack in personal offensive spells though.

    -fireflies needs a huge buff
    -more summoning spells
    -11 summon, 10 ice, and 8 flame per level
    -Multicast IV at level 95, as the progression suggests

    and conj has been fixed IMO.
    torvos: shadow to chaos shard

  3. #3

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    Thanks for your thoughts! In this time of flamage I welcome conversation on something different.

    Hahaha... I didn't even mention FireFlies... for some reason, it's so incredibly underwhelming I never even bothered to put it on. I use Engulf. Doing 21 damage a tick to something that has 3000 HP seems... silly. Whoo hoo. Fireflies VI... uhh... I now do...22 damage a tick? No thanks. If I wanted to go back to that sort of DoT I'd go back to straight Monk

    Definitely needs more summon spells, hopefully not cookie cutter ones. I like the idea of trading time for damage, and secondary damage, but it's not there yet for the existing spells. Also I disagree about the flame. I think that they should get 11 summon, and maybe 10/10 for fire/ice. If they can conjure and are masters of the elements as their abilities suggest, then they should be better at it than a general mage...

    By my estimates I think that Mage gets too many points, just like base Warrior. Conjs are also giving up the Mind/Energy skill, which is no small loss. The Stun Tech on an Energy spell is a force to be reconed with as is Daunting Mist/Disconcert.

    -HratLi

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjl
    this is a wonderful and accurate summary. conjurors certainly have their place in a group. It's a shame they lack in personal offensive spells though.

    -fireflies needs a huge buff
    -more summoning spells
    -11 summon, 10 ice, and 8 flame per level
    -Multicast IV at level 95, as the progression suggests

    and conj has been fixed IMO.
    I'm only at 26 conj so I can't really comment on the rest, but my experience from a KNOC/Mage has shown me that casting those summon spells is a waste of time. I can do equal if not more damage most the time with energy strike, which has 2x the range and half the casting time (no brainer there). There must be more summon spells!

    Personally I had hoped to see dancing rapier masterable

    Also, perhaps some of the buffs you cast on yourself (like quills) should be timers, not based on hits. Might make it easier to live as a conjurer.
    Hiko - Former Defender of Shadow
    100 Knight of Creation Hybrid
    -= Disciples =-
    BOYCOTTING THE SUMMONED SHIELD OF CREATION AS OF JULY 17TH, 2006

  5. #5

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    Welcome Hiko, Knight of Creation!

    Your experience on the spell side is welcome.

    Yes, I too would LOVE to see Rapier Masterable :: drool ::

    If they don't want to do timers to keep the Conjurer 'unique' then perhaps a nice autodebit to the available elements would be nice.

    Anyways, As a Meleer, Conjurer is a nice quilt patch. Just not up to par as a stand alone class.

    -HratLi

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by HratLi
    Also I disagree about the flame. I think that they should get 11 summon, and maybe 10/10 for fire/ice. If they can conjure and are masters of the elements as their abilities suggest, then they should be better at it than a general mage...
    Lore-wise this makes sense, but if you look at the abilities a mage gets (namely fusion burn, burnout, and the passive +dmg boosts), you can plainly see that they are the masters of flame, bar none. I think it's ok for base schools to actually have an advantage or "prestige" in something.

    As for conj, thier ability list would slightly hint at ice being thier forté, since they get the passive dmg boosts to ice. Since ice and flame are slightly mutually exclusive (from the +fire resis that binding crystals adds) I think conj should master in ice and have summoning as thier secondary focus.

    The flame points they are wasted IMO, because they really have nothing to support it (and in fact, one ice spell you will frequently use hurts it). Ice and summoning mixes much better, even with the terrible lack of spells.

    And you are prob right, mage just gets too many skills. Even though the gains in mind/summoning are terrible you can still use tier 3 and some tier 4. If they removed the whole need to take base schools for prestige, it would fix a lot of things.

    Mage should focus on flame, and support it w/ energy. Ice is the 3rd skill for utility. They fit this profile well (and have the added bonus of mind/summon, which I will concede they shouldn't)

    Wizards focus on energy and have flame for support. No 3rd spell line for utility. Don't really need it though w/ the dmg shield.

    Sorcs focus on mind, and support with ice. Flame for utility. They would fit this well if mind had any damage spells.

    And lastly, Conj should focus on Ice, and support with summoning. While they can manipulate flame to protect them, buff them, and do some damage... they lack the focus to use it as primary dmg. Flame for utility.

    Whew, I can go on forever about this stuff lol.
    torvos: shadow to chaos shard

  7. #7

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    One true problem is that the conjurer doesnt have a lot of abilities like fusion burn which add to its offensive firepower. Small dots, damage shields are like icing on a cake, but we're missing the cake!

    One idea I had was similar to the KNOC banish armor and mage fusion burn. Give an ability that allows the conjurer to ignore all armor on their next 20 seconds of spells (non masterable for sure!)

    Another ability would be one that significantly reduces slash/pierce/crush resistance - giving more reason to use IHammer, FSpear (always wondered why there was no slash attack).

    Finally - they should be given one type of ice nuke that matches firey strike (once again conj only).
    Hiko - Former Defender of Shadow
    100 Knight of Creation Hybrid
    -= Disciples =-
    BOYCOTTING THE SUMMONED SHIELD OF CREATION AS OF JULY 17TH, 2006

  8. #8

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    Just so you know Phoenix Rising is masterable. II is mastered at 96 I believe. Phoenix Rising is AOE and does about 150 damage per mob so it isn't too bad.

  9. #9

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    Don't ever expect anything more to become masterable. It isn't going to happen. The school is one of a few that needs a total overhaul, there are good ideas with the elements system but they are just not implemented correctly. Dancing Rapier to a school fades after 1-2 hits, in a school with almost no weapon school, it is only for the multiclassed/group buffs. There are many oversights in the whole school, and just general incompleteness.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by IvyMindFlayer
    Just so you know Phoenix Rising is masterable. II is mastered at 96 I believe. Phoenix Rising is AOE and does about 150 damage per mob so it isn't too bad.
    Eeek.. You're right! I typoed that
    It's a nice little AoE that transfers and will serve well.


    AAO, I don't think any of us are expecting it, but it would be nice hehe... It's a great little toy. It sounds like we are all in agreement about it.

    -HratLi

    HratLi SnowPelt : From Bounty to Chaos : Eyes of Istaria
    MultiCrafter, Spirit Disciple, Walking Bleed Attack.
    HratLi's Bucket of Fury : A Saris in cargo gear appears and beats on your foe.
    Damage :
    50-150 Attack Type: Bucket Duration: Until Dispelled Frequency: 0:02

  11. #11

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    Yes I never really expected to get anything new masterable either, but the focus is on the value of the class by itself (which is to say very little).

    They get a good deal of melee buffs for a class that does not do melee. I understand that their job is supposed to be a support role, but horizons never really marketed the grouping experience enough to warrent having support class. Too much of the game is based around the solo expeierence.

    I think another thing we can do to enhance the conjurer experience is to change the duration on their buffs. Instead of "Removed after 20 hits taken" give it a flat time duration. Personally I feel bad about having to constantly ask any conjurer that may be in my group to rebuff me after every fight.

    We could also add in addition tiers of summon elements that gives them more ice/fire elements, then add attacks that somre more attacks that work off these instead of buffs.

    Something along the lines of:
    Icy Soul:
    Recylce - 3 min
    Effect: When cast, the next ice spell you cast will do 200% damage, consumes 2 ice elements.
    Hiko - Former Defender of Shadow
    100 Knight of Creation Hybrid
    -= Disciples =-
    BOYCOTTING THE SUMMONED SHIELD OF CREATION AS OF JULY 17TH, 2006

  12. #12

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    Well, a major issue is they are a .. ok group support role, but their elements run out so incredibly fast if you have say 5 people that you are worthless. Neat idea, just never finished

  13. #13

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    I suspect that the thought might have been to have Summon Elements I, II, III, etc... Allowing you to maintain buffs on more people as you level. All hyponthesis and guessing on my part.

    Currently I can only keep myself fully buffed for MOST of the time, or me and one other person buffed for Ice Barrier. Infix lasts a good long time at higher levels and I use half as many of those as any other. 8/15 minutes doesn't cut it when you have 3 buffs /person that dissapear after 20 hits, or in the case of the rapiers ~200 damage. Oh well. It's fun for a SELF support class at any rate

    -HratLi

    HratLi SnowPelt : From Bounty to Chaos : Eyes of Istaria
    MultiCrafter, Spirit Disciple, Walking Bleed Attack.
    HratLi's Bucket of Fury : A Saris in cargo gear appears and beats on your foe.
    Damage :
    50-150 Attack Type: Bucket Duration: Until Dispelled Frequency: 0:02

  14. #14

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    Infix doesn't last so long if you use unarmed, due to being for a certain number of hits; in my case, my primary burst damage is flurry/gnomian as flame disciple, so infix is gone in a matter of seconds.
    I didn't take conjurer myself, but have been buffed by a guildie with Infix on a number of occasions.
    Since I'm not caster primary, and the masterable conjurer buffs wear off so fast, I don't plan on taking conjurer at all.
    -Grem

  15. #15

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    being an archer, infix lasts long enough, but don't count on buffing 2 people regularily.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremblthrg
    Since I'm not caster primary, and the masterable conjurer buffs wear off so fast, I don't plan on taking conjurer at all.
    -Grem
    Grem, Do you have any casting classes at all other than flame? If not I would highly suggest it! For you it would add a few more bombs to your arsenal as well as another few type of bolts other than flame. You already had flame attack that you could use along with say, Guardian's force to increase your damage, but that alone wouldn't be worth while as you said. The additional Power wouldn't hurt either!

    -HratLi

    HratLi SnowPelt : From Bounty to Chaos : Eyes of Istaria
    MultiCrafter, Spirit Disciple, Walking Bleed Attack.
    HratLi's Bucket of Fury : A Saris in cargo gear appears and beats on your foe.
    Damage :
    50-150 Attack Type: Bucket Duration: Until Dispelled Frequency: 0:02

  17. #17

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    I thought people took Conjurer to master MC II.
    Korth Koragan-

  18. #18

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    They DO But that's not the only reason, or if it is, then they're already a mage or missing a lot of opportunities.

    -HratLi

    HratLi SnowPelt : From Bounty to Chaos : Eyes of Istaria
    MultiCrafter, Spirit Disciple, Walking Bleed Attack.
    HratLi's Bucket of Fury : A Saris in cargo gear appears and beats on your foe.
    Damage :
    50-150 Attack Type: Bucket Duration: Until Dispelled Frequency: 0:02

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by HratLi
    Grem, Do you have any casting classes at all other than flame? If not I would highly suggest it! For you it would add a few more bombs to your arsenal as well as another few type of bolts other than flame. You already had flame attack that you could use along with say, Guardian's force to increase your damage, but that alone wouldn't be worth while as you said. The additional Power wouldn't hurt either!

    -HratLi
    100 mage.. mc1/ps/fb flame bomb V or Fiery Strike V as flame disc can be nice, though with melee TPs and gear, and not in a primary casting class for nonmasterables (mc3, burnout for mage) the damage is much lower.
    It's handy to have an AoE backup for those times when I'm fighting something a bit weaker for comps etc. Stun teched energy bolts are handy when I run as healer, but takes alot longer to kill things than as flame disc melee.
    And frankly, I'm not that interested in nuking stuff, or changing any of my setup to be less melee oriented. I like to punch things...
    Flame/Ice/Energy attack V are put to use regularly, with or without Guardian's Force depending on the damage type I want.
    Yay for damage spam! I can get close to 80 attack rounds in one minute burst, with flurry + fists of flame that's 600+ seperate hits. Total damage is less than what warriors and the like can burst, but it's alot of fun to spam that many times. But infix? With that flurry gnomie burst, ~8 melee hits per second.... yeah, infix goes too fast to be useful. Doing gnomie without flurry? Still roughly 2 rounds per second.
    For someone who casts alot, mastered MC2 would be useful, along with the higher ice and summon skill than mage gets. However, I agree with the general tone of posts in this thread that conjuror as a standalone is rather weak, and as a supplementary class doesn't offer very much.
    - Grem
    (sorry if I ramble disjointedly.. need sleep)

  20. #20

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    Hah... Yeah, for your build, would NOT be worthwhile. Yours would be the death of Dismemberment by 600 papercuts 2 seconds of additional boost to damage wouldn't help much.

    Also if you already have mage you are more than set, I didn't, so I went ahead and grabbed Conjurer. Being a mystic caster I wouldn't be able to cast most of the spells anyways, so I'm primarily after the Attacks, and MC2 for my dark cyclone. The added bonus is that I will now have a Fire/Ice bolt for specific situations.

    -HratLi

    HratLi SnowPelt : From Bounty to Chaos : Eyes of Istaria
    MultiCrafter, Spirit Disciple, Walking Bleed Attack.
    HratLi's Bucket of Fury : A Saris in cargo gear appears and beats on your foe.
    Damage :
    50-150 Attack Type: Bucket Duration: Until Dispelled Frequency: 0:02

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