Ease/Grind/Risk/Reward

[Aamer Khan]

A post by Justa got me to thinking...

How to walk the tightrope between making things easy or be a grind, coupled with risk vs. reward.

The goal, is to get our daring tightrope walker to the middle of the highwire. There, they must turn flips, balance chairs, or whaterver they can do to hold our attention.

The risk of course, is that they could fall... be we don't really expect that though.
The reward, it that of entertaining us for a period of time.

Now, if you only goto the show one time, everything is new and bright. But, go to this show 20 times, and watching him balance a chair on his chin, will become a boring grind. If however, he balanced something new each show, you would come back over and over to see what he would balance next.

Take this analogy, and apply it to a MMORPG like Horizons.

Grind does not have to be bad, as long as there is some new aspect introduced as we move forwards. Hiding grind ( since grinding to some degree is a prerequisite ) is often commented on as vital in a game like HZ. However, what if there were new things introduced as we went along?

Like bonus resources that were actually worth something to crafters... "while out mining cobalt today, Smitty Gindalot found a long lost piece of what appears to be a gnome contraption. What it's purpose or function is is unknown, but Smitty says he will keep looking for more pieces" Now, the mindless grind is replaced with anticipation. Once a new piece is found, all memory of the 10 disk loads of ore to find it are forgotten.

Or for adventurers, as they fight certain very hard mobs, they have the potential to drop reklar pieces or forms? ALL persons that fight a mob get a chance at looting and getting a drop. No more camping, no more bickering over who did he most damage, or who tagged the mob first.

If the loot was worth having, and was not attuned, then players would be very busy collecting parts and whatnots, and would have little time to complain. A market would develop for the parts, and they would be sold or traded. By all means, attune the final product of multiple parts, just not the pieces. As the months pass, add new parts to the mobs and retire previous parts. Now you have a constant addition of new items that add the most important element... FUN!

Reward for risk is another aspect that needs attention. If a players takes a big risk, and pulls it off, then they should get a good reward. When a player solos a named mob like Mhedon, they sould not get junk for loot. However, if 5 multilcassed AR 140+ players take down Mhedon, then why would they get good loot, when there was no risk? To make this work, the number of players attacking a mob must be considered. Then, the greater the risk, the higher the percentage should be for drops or good loot. One player attacking, should be the highest percentage, with it falling to zero when there is no risk.
Realize I'm ONLY speaking about loot. This should NOT affect exp or comp drop rates.

Reward should ONLY come from taking a risk. I have been here since release, and sure don't think I deserve anything simply be being here a long time. If I'm not willing to take chances and risk, I don't deserve anything.

Perhaps you agree with all this, or only part, or not at all. These are just my views.

[Anima]

<Waves!>

Yummy ideas there Aamer, one thing that sticks out as odd though. Mhedon's loot changing to fit a "risk vs. Reward" senario. A single person defeating Mhedon will get better loot than several people taking it down? Seems a little heavy handed <shrugs>.

How else will a non multi-schooled person take down Mhedon?
Also, Some Multi-schooled people like myself are at a distinct disadvantage against this particular creature. Mhedon is immune to crowd control (roots, mezes, snares and stuns), this being my only mode of damage mitigation, because I'm a soft squishy caster type with wet paper bag armor. Mhedon will kill me in 1 or 2 hits, period. The only effective strategy I have is to run.

Sorry to pick on that example, just offering a different viewpoint.

The other groovy stuff you mentioned sounds great, I'd love to have a reason to hunt big bad critters above and beyond coin and component collecting. Fun, unexpected, constantly changing loot would keep me hunting. That sounds like so much fun... It just might make me forget about post 100th levels.

<waves!>

[Aamer Khan]

You have a good point there Anima, and perhaps the Mhedon example is a bit corse yet, but let's discuss it a bit...

The key to Killing Mhedon is speed of the kill. Even caster types can kill him by kiting him, even if they have poor armor. Trust and I have killed Mhedon in under 30 second before. Of course it took planning and flurry on both our parts to do it. Alone I too have a very hard time killing him, even though I have over 4k HP fully buffed and fully teched mithril armor.

But that is exactly what I mean by risk. If it takes upping certain skills to kill a certain mob because of it's natural immunities, then those that are willing to put forth the effort, and are willing to gain many DP's learning how to kill said beastie, SHOULD be given the best rewards. Not all mobs can be, ( nor should be ) killable by every player. We all have various skills that we bring to any group, that can be leveraged to kill any mob in game.

I just feel personally that the rewards should scale with the level of risk. Now, if YOU solo Mhedon, then I think a Reklar Sash of fury, or Chakram should be your loot.

"With great risk, comes great rewards"

[Anima]

<Waves!>

Hmm...the current experience system is all about this particular style of risk vs. reward. Taking on things higher than yourself results in more experience reward, also for taking on multiple creatures. Perhaps linking percentage chances of loot drops and frequencys, catagorys with the experience system.
IE. Better chance of getting something nice if you take on creatures with a higher rating than yourself.

Ehh.. but this really is just a boost to solo adventuring. Grouping up to take down a creature would reduce the chance of getting something really nice. Less risk = less reward. Great for me, I like to solo. Not so hot for those that enjoy grouping up to accomplish something as a team.

Ehh... fixed loot catagorys and precentages sound better to me. Instead of modifying the creature to suit the situation, Modify the situation to suit the creature. IE. A boss creature will have AMAZING loot, stick that boss at the end of a network of tunnels crawling with henchmen and other nasties.

Bundle all this up into an instant with a timer for reaching the boss... and there you go. Risk vs. reward at it's finest. You'd need a team of competent adventurers able to work together to get to the boss before the timer runs out.

Ya, I know... horizons dosent have dungeons because of some world model issue or something. Big problem there, we're missing out on alot of spiffy opportunities.

<Waves!>

[Jayne]

Yea solo him in under 15-20 sec. I just solo'd Surithiem I think it is, the fire golem in the cave.

[Tantalyr]

I very much like your ideas here, Aamer, particularly the resource gathering ideas.

I've always thought that at least with digging ore or slabs you should have a chance to dredge up a crystal of equal tier. It would be even better if you had a chance when gathering any type of resource to fetch a part to something.

[Ulkesh]

wasnt there an idea in the past about adding tech components (same tier) as randoms while harvesting? maybe they could add those and some appropriate elemental trophies

i also like the idea of a random piece of such and such that would make you want to find more, stick it all together and have a shiny new item.

[BKBanzai]

Second or thirded or forthed on the surprise bonus "resource". Very interesting idea, and would take a bit out of the grind of crafting...given, of course, that salt rock bonus isn't considered a surprise bonus. That idea even fits the idea. How many people have found unexpected "treasures" while out in the fields, or mucking through hills, etc? Indian arrowheads come to mind, old pieces of pottery, broken weapons.

[Kulamata]

It would be nice if the idea of node drops of crystals or whatever has finally found its time; it's an old idea, floated early in the time of the first craft nerfs. I guess the Essence of Blight drops from blighted resource nodes was a partial implementation, but the devs never showed the slightest interest in real node drops.

I do like the idea, so would suggest amending "reward for risk" to "reward for risk and/or grind". (Catchy, no?) Maybe halve the drop rate for unguarded fields.

[Dhalin]

I tried to post something along this idea in Rants, and I was flamed for it....

I said:

"Why does crafting have to be so dang monotonous?"

And wouldn't you know it, I got blasted for wanting an "easy" button. *rolls eyes* Crafting already IS easy. Too easy! All you do is walk up to node, click it, hit backspace key, wait until done, walk over to machine, craft, rinse, repeat x1000 times.

And yet, I got flamed in the Rants forum for posting it. I think they need to add more variety to the game. Grinding I don't mind, but when its the same exact thing x1000 times, then it gets on my nerves. Pre-Lodestone, I was crafting Slate scales. Load after Load after Load after Load of slate I dug to drag my full disks up the hill to the stonework machine in Snowfall on Order. A level would take me hundreds of bricks, dozens of scales. It was the Same. Old. Thing. One. Million. Times. Over.

Its a little better now with the Lodestones, but the previous devs wanted to nerf it. I wonder just ho wmuch they intended to nerf it. yes, maybe its a little too fast, but I like doing Lodestones by themselves. You're working with 2 sometimes 3 different ingredients and its not the same exact thing over and over again, so its not Quite as monotonous as say, scales.

--Dhalin

[Kulamata]

You were flamed because some players see no grey. Great tedium or silver platter, nothing in between. Which of course is where the issue actually is.

With the last round of nerfs, even some of those who in the past had spoken approvingly of the greater "achievement" and "challenge" of doing something 2,000 times instead of only 1,500 (clearly silver platter ease ) have started to see that the continuing greying of the game with monotony and tedium was a bad idea.

[Dhalin]

Yeah, I do not see where doing the same thing 1,000 times, or 1,100 times changes the Challenge Level any. It just.. doesn't. The only Challenge that exists in it, is how much it tests your patience to continue doing the same thing that many times over.

That's the point I attempted to make in that thread:

It doesn't matter if I haul a full Tarbash Disk of Slate to make into Scales 20 times for a levelup, or 10 times for a level up, therein exists the Exact Same Amount of Challenge, the Exact Same Amount of Risk, the Exact Same Amount of Effort, with but one change -- how much TIME it takes, and how much GRIND is present, and how much patience it requires to do so.

If I stand here and say "Hey, could you make it so that it takes 500 diskloads for me to get this done instead of 1,000 diskloads?" Ooo, you'd see some people screaming at me for wanting an "easy button".... but therein lies the problem. There already is no challenge in crafting.

Look at other MMORPGs.

Where's the Challenge in WoW's Crafting? The fact that almost ALL crafting nodes are near mobs, the appropiate level mobs. That's the challenge in WoW's crafting. You can buy the crafting ingredients from the AH, the challenge is getting the money to do it.

Where's the challenge in FFXI's crafting? Money. Knowledge. Where to get your ingredients. Do NPCs currently sell it (sometimes they don't!)? Is there any on an Auction House? Can you afford it? Can you go and gather it yourself?

Where's the Challenge in Horizon's Crafting? Patience and Time, purely until, what, T5, then you start running into mobs.

--Dhalin

[Seranthor]

I tried to post something along this idea in Rants, and I was flamed for it....

I said:

"Why does crafting have to be so dang monotonous?"

And wouldn't you know it, I got blasted for wanting an "easy" button. *rolls eyes* Crafting already IS easy. Too easy! All you do is walk up to node, click it, hit backspace key, wait until done, walk over to machine, craft, rinse, repeat x1000 times.

And yet, I got flamed in the Rants forum for posting it. I think they need to add more variety to the game. Grinding I don't mind, but when its the same exact thing x1000 times, then it gets on my nerves. Pre-Lodestone, I was crafting Slate scales. Load after Load after Load after Load of slate I dug to drag my full disks up the hill to the stonework machine in Snowfall on Order. A level would take me hundreds of bricks, dozens of scales. It was the Same. Old. Thing. One. Million. Times. Over.

Its a little better now with the Lodestones, but the previous devs wanted to nerf it. I wonder just ho wmuch they intended to nerf it. yes, maybe its a little too fast, but I like doing Lodestones by themselves. You're working with 2 sometimes 3 different ingredients and its not the same exact thing over and over again, so its not Quite as monotonous as say, scales.

--Dhalin

No sir, what Aamer has posted and what YOU posted are not even remotely alike, as I read both of them yet again. At least the way I read your post again, it was 'Boo hoo, I have to do this soooo many times to level' and I personally rather doubt that you've made a million scales...

But, hey, if your logic allows you to say your suggestion and Aamer's are the same then by all means raise your hands to the sky and shout 'I believe'.

[Svayvti]

I find there is no way to eliminate "the grind" in a RPG unless you get rid of all leveling, something Horizons can't really do.

What you can, and should do is camoflage the grind. Give the players something else to work on other than just leveling, that gives them exp along the way. The grind sets in when people do something repetitively over a long period of time for one result, instead of a series of small results or rewards.

I honestly think that if you add special loot to gathering craft supplies, it will just end up like the higher tier stuff you get now as a special reward. People will complain about getting it when they don't want it, and they'll complain about the rarity of it when they do want it. When you're working towards something other than the levels themselves, something which isn't days and days away from success then the grind disappears in the excitement to achieve the short term goal. Myself I find story quests to be a great motivator.

I'll agree risk vs reward needs serious rebalancing. But I've come to realize that critically teaming in Horizons needs to be rebalanced first. You're penalized to heavily in this game for teaming both exp wise and 'strategically' (as you can't control aggro very well and the most fragile usually gets it). Teaming needs to be revamped, and then risk vs reward for adventuring.

I always want to be careful to avoid the "Have" and "Have not" societies in horizons with risk vs. reward. An example of which is Warcraft and the difference between solo advancement at endgame and raid advancement at endgame. I hope that if Horizons develops that uber endgame which only a rarity of people can achieve and many strive for... that it doesn't involve statistically uber loot. The best reward I've found isn't to have twice the stats and capabilities of those who haven't taken down big-baddie, but to have twice the fluff and recognition. A special plot "statue" that drops off a monster only a full raid group can take down on a good day will have everyone salivating at the opportunity, without creating the stratification of players that the "uber sword of bling bling" causes as loot.

[Crazyfingers]

Nice ideas Aamer, one has a problem thou. The risk of killing Mhedon by yourself or with a group= more or less reward. Human nature is greedy. Most people would want to kill it by themselves for the bigger reward. Can you imagine all the conflicts?

The whole hunting thing needs to be rethought. I kind of look at it this way.

Big bear hunting by a mountain man and a tribe of indians hunting buffalo.
Both hunts are very different and rewarding in totally different ways.

Mountain man is risking his life fighting a bear by himself, possibly for food or trade or just the thrill.

An Tribe of Indians are hunting buffalo for survival. Its rewarding in a totally different way. Teaching younger tribesman, etc etc.

Both forms of hunting take strategies. But switch the mountain man with the Indians and the hunting would make no sense.

Why would 50 indians waiste time tracking and killing one bear? When they could be tracking a herd of buffalo with more suitable rewards.

What purpose would a mountain man have in tracking and killing 50 buffalo? He cant carry them all with him, and the grizzly bear is more rewarding for his needs.

I like both types of hunting, solo and group. But these hunts must be distinctively different and for totally different rewards.

Im not stoned. But I used to be....

NimK

[Aamer Khan]

Svayvti, that is exactly why I mention that these findable items be rotated like ever month or so... imagine, the regal weapon parts being found while mining cobalt. This month it's crudgels, long swords, and mauls, next month its bows, sashes, and expert backpack pieces... etc...

Multiclassing will cause a bit of an issue, but if the items are just fun without being overbalancing, then sure some might get more items, but it really won't matter since there will be a limited supply in the first place.

Groups could be made better, by having named mobs have VERY nice loot, and not be soloable anymore alone. Mhedon, Arboreon, Umyaar, and their buddies like reklar, would require a group to kill, and ALL fighting him, would have a chance to get a nice drop from him. not just the group that tagged him. But to be fair, those that have done good damage to him, would first off have to be their primary targets, ( risk ) and thus have a higher percent chance at the drops ( rewards ).

This ONLY applies to Named mobs of any tier. Named mobs should have a limited range in which you can damage them. If you're 20 levels above a named mob, you cannot damage it at all. So, if you're a lvl 100 fighting a lvl 140, then no prob. But, if your a level 100 fighting a lvl 80 named mob No more damage from you. No more high level ganking of low level named mobs. Remember this applies to NAMED mobs only.

These are just further ideas... they need more work, and would require lots of testing. But the bottom line is to add fun back in and help us all forget the grind.

[Hiko]

I find there is no way to eliminate "the grind" in a RPG unless you get rid of all leveling, something Horizons can't really do.

What you can, and should do is camoflage the grind. Give the players something else to work on other than just leveling, that gives them exp along the way. The grind sets in when people do something repetitively over a long period of time for one result, instead of a series of small results or rewards.

I honestly think that if you add special loot to gathering craft supplies, it will just end up like the higher tier stuff you get now as a special reward. People will complain about getting it when they don't want it, and they'll complain about the rarity of it when they do want it. When you're working towards something other than the levels themselves, something which isn't days and days away from success then the grind disappears in the excitement to achieve the short term goal. Myself I find story quests to be a great motivator.

I'll agree risk vs reward needs serious rebalancing. But I've come to realize that critically teaming in Horizons needs to be rebalanced first. You're penalized to heavily in this game for teaming both exp wise and 'strategically' (as you can't control aggro very well and the most fragile usually gets it). Teaming needs to be revamped, and then risk vs reward for adventuring.

I always want to be careful to avoid the "Have" and "Have not" societies in horizons with risk vs. reward. An example of which is Warcraft and the difference between solo advancement at endgame and raid advancement at endgame. I hope that if Horizons develops that uber endgame which only a rarity of people can achieve and many strive for... that it doesn't involve statistically uber loot. The best reward I've found isn't to have twice the stats and capabilities of those who haven't taken down big-baddie, but to have twice the fluff and recognition. A special plot "statue" that drops off a monster only a full raid group can take down on a good day will have everyone salivating at the opportunity, without creating the stratification of players that the "uber sword of bling bling" causes as loot.

I agree with so many things you hve said here.
1) aggro control in groups is horrible. I want to tank - that means a shield, but aggro bounces purely by dmg. Defend other is unreliable.

2) There is practically NO risk in crafting. As soon as you put even remote danger in, crafters complain "oh, so I have to be a high level adventurer to be a high level crafter? But high level adventurers don't have to be high level crafters to hunt!" - Perhaps they should realize that adding in danger will allow you to charge higher prices, and that will balance it out.

3) Yes, crafting in this game is COMPLETELY based on patiance; At least in adventuring, you can change the type of mobs you fight etc, however in crafting, you're forced to work the same fields for 20 levels pretty much. Making and deconing thousands of items for seemingly no purpose or reward besides Xp.

[Dha'Vol]

Tonight marks the first time I have been able to take down Mhedon all by myself. The score now is Mhedon 50 something, DhaVol 1.

I'm not an "uberped" as you would consider. I am 100 Warrior and 99 Healer. Thats it. I have half a dozen other lesser schools like Scout to 3 or something and Mage to 8, but none of that really does much to help you when fighting something that does 450-800+ a hit on you.

I have to say the risk taking down something like that should be more than 8 mithril ore and 2 IBMs. But then you run into the problem we had when Alkemnon was spawning South of Tazoon in the desert by the pyramids. People camping him because he always dropped tons of crystals and bounties. As of right now Mhedon has 672 items in his loot table. (From horizons.gameinformer.net) 9 Ironsilk pouches, Mithril Ore and Frags, Soul Frags, Trophies, 5 different types of hoard, 509 expert forms, and 145 T5 techs. There is nothing in there worth risking my neck over. I can fight a level 81 Marble Golem for the same stuff.

I say rework the loot tables on names mobs. Put something in there worth fighting for. But at the same time there would have to be some safeguard so a level 100 didnt go around farming all the low level named mobs just to collect the stuff to sell.

[Aria]

Groups could be made better, by having named mobs have VERY nice loot, and not be soloable anymore alone. Mhedon, Arboreon, Umyaar, and their buddies like reklar, would require a group to kill, and ALL fighting him, would have a chance to get a nice drop from him. not just the group that tagged him. But to be fair, those that have done good damage to him, would first off have to be their primary targets, ( risk ) and thus have a higher percent chance at the drops ( rewards ).

I'm a bit confused on this ...are you speaking of multiple groups targeting the same boss, or members within a group?

[snickel]

I do not like the notion of making crafting riskier -- there are other ways to keep it interesting. I like the idea that while patiently collecting a resource I might have a little surprise (not a mob jumping me, but a little curiosity, a knicknack, treasure or whatever that was hidden in the resource). It doesn't have to be something of significant value (remember the other notion of adding collectibles to the game)? Its fluff, it doesn't have to make me stronger or a better crafter or fighter. Just something I can ponder on, show to others and grin about.

Yes I'd like that very much. I do not find crafting tedious (or monotonous), for whenever a product starts to begin to look uninteresting I switch to something else. And there is enough to switch to in this game, thank heavens. Maybe I would find grinding a bore if my thoughts were just on how to gain levels fast. But I don't see a reason for that -- this is not a race, after all.

So I'd like to have introduced a little reward into grinding, but no risk. There's risk enough when you get bitten by spiders collecting fabric or hit over the head by treants when logging. I find no fault at all with the notion that a crafter should not be forced to become a great adventurer as well.