IRC log: discussion of the billing issues with Danu

[Khargu Wildeye]

In matters of the game, I urged paitience, as I am paitient. In matters of my finaces, I am not willing to demostrate either paitience, nor understanding for proceedures that put them at risk.

I assume my trial did not roll over to the new system, whereas billing would commence.

The only option seems Paypal, and that isn't one I wish to use on a recurring basis.

On that note, verification is not necessary for personal CC usage, though your first purchase is severely limited until it actually pays. As I recalll, there is also a limit around $250 for usage afterwards until you do verify.

I have used paypal for other things since 2001, and have yet to verify. I also have never responded to the Pay-Pal, E-bay, or fake bank phising schemes, and it that time never had any issues with my card or security.

I only wish my Bank was so careful.

I will sit back and watch for now.

[Leviathan]

After having read that IRC chat, I have to say DANU was grilled a little too hard. I would have had far less patients than he did.

Yes they made a big mistake in not having secure CC site up, but like DANU said, Horizons didnt have the time that he would have liked to prepare before the sale; I'm assuming because Tulga was out of money. By taking it on before he wanted, he may have saved the game. Has anyone considered that?

We have a great community in game, and I honestly believe that DANU and the other EI associates want to be a part of that community. In order for that to happen, they have to feel accepted.

We would have a far better chance of EI going the extra mile to accomodate us, if they feel appreciated and a part of the Horizons community. Im not trying to be an apologist for anyone, but they are human beings with feelings (there are some sociologists that believe Devs do indeed have feelings, but it is currently conjecture).

You can criticize me, because I haven't always been so understanding in the past myself :P , but Im trying to change for the better.

my 2cp.

Thanks


btw, Im waiting for the secure CC site myself :P

[Helcat]

LMAO... love the straight-shootin, Kwinn ol Boy

[Nynelyves]

I think he admitted they screwed up Gopher but he was thinking more in the lines of statements made by players in IRC....this is just for instance and not saying just you but taking it in context

(20:31:26) gopher: Frankly, I think you just screwed yourself out of a future playerbase though ignorance and incompetence


How is this constructive?

[Ardel]

Well this has already cost me $15 bucks, due to having a new card issued. I am one of the players that inadvertantly keyed in my details, only to find out that it wasn't secure.
Sure, the onus is on me to always check if any site is secure. But quite frankly, I didn't think about being secure, whilst on a Horizon's site, as I've always thought of it as secure.
The fact that the company has been so tight-lipped about this fiasco is completely unprofessional and atrocious.
I really hope that all you players havn't had your security compromised, and wish you luck with sorting it out.
Some might 'sugar-coat' this incident, but this is nothing short of unacceptable.

[Gale]

One of the first things you learn in a customer driven company is to not go out of your way to piss off the customer. Should you break this rule, you go out of your way to own up to it and try to rectify the situation. In my previous role with Artifact, I had to do this on more then one occasion for those who can remember that far back ;-)

I would HIGHLY recommend to EI to post a public statement, ideally on both the Community Site news page and the login page, saying "Hey, look, we're having some issues with the billing. Please be patient."

As is demonstrated by a number of posts, the customer is feeling ignored. An ignored customer, quickly turns into an angry customer which quickly turns into a former customer. This is all, seemingly, something that would be common sense, but it apparently bears voicing.

(And hi to everyone who may or may not remember this old-timer! *grin*)

[Khoal]

.... An ignored customer, quickly turns into an angry customer which quickly turns into a former customer. This is all, seemingly, something that would be common sense, but it apparently bears voicing.

(And hi to everyone who may or may not remember this old-timer! *grin*)

Don't forget the social aspect. Angry customer / former customer talks to potential customer.

Hey, Gale! Long time no see. Was but a wee hatchie in your time, but I do remember!

[Magnir]

I certainly remember ya **waves at Gale**

[Menkure]

One of the first things you learn in a customer driven company is to not go out of your way to piss off the customer. Should you break this rule, you go out of your way to own up to it and try to rectify the situation. In my previous role with Artifact, I had to do this on more then one occasion for those who can remember that far back ;-)

I would HIGHLY recommend to EI to post a public statement, ideally on both the Community Site news page and the login page, saying "Hey, look, we're having some issues with the billing. Please be patient."

As is demonstrated by a number of posts, the customer is feeling ignored. An ignored customer, quickly turns into an angry customer which quickly turns into a former customer. This is all, seemingly, something that would be common sense, but it apparently bears voicing.

(And hi to everyone who may or may not remember this old-timer! *grin*)

*jaw drops* WOW!!!

Oh yes.. I do remember...


Hey Gale.. remember the Vault Upgrade Bug(TM) and the monk that lost all his armor when he upgraded? *smiles*

-Menkure

[Helcat]

*jaw drop* wow! Gale! I haven't seen you since the tazoon boards were still up and running. How have things been going?

aka Kipeo...

[Leviathan]

OMG OMG OMG! It's Gale

DANU, meet Gale. By far and away the bestestest customer service person in da whole of Istaria.

Gale was the only voice for us in a sea of indifference during the turbulent early days of Horizons.

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

Heya Gale - long time no see - glad to see you still have the desire to support/communicate with the community.

[Helcat]

lol.. um.. guys? He's been posting here for months

[LexDivinia]

(20:23:34) DANU_EI: Seranthor at the risk of being snape like I suggest Horizons didn't have 3 months for me to authenticate servers before we closed the purchae!

What does this mean?

[TheHaunt]

My interpretation is... that he doesn't want to snap at people but he didn't get 3 months to verify things before he finalized the purchase...

Now, to me what that means is that he bought Horizons fast because it was (apparently) not able to withstand a 3 month wait for them to verify things.

IF MY INTERPRETATION IS CORRECT... (and I am aware that it may not be)
There are 2 problems here... First- I wasn't aware that Horizons was in that bad a shape, financially, if my interpretation is correct... and that's not a good thing... What information I had read about them led me to believe they weren't RICH, but also saw nothing from you all in the forums about another potential bankruptcy... at least not until AFTER the sale...

and second- who buys anything that they don't have a chance to inspect, or have inspected? If you buy a car or a house and don't have it inspected, you're just asking for heartaches with "hidden" issues you weren't prepared to look for or are not competent to seek out (and would then pay someone trained and competent to do it for you)...

The entire things smells more and more of a herring left out in the rain and sun for a week... fishy... TOO darned fishy...

Issues, issues, issues.

[LexDivinia]

I took a moment to go through and narrow things down... A lot.
The following is everything that DANU had to say during the conversation.
And when you take away everything the players said, there wasn't a whole lot left.

(20:12:40) DANU_EI [[email protected]] entered the room.
(20:13:15) DANU_EI: Hi all
(20:13:20) DANU_EI: Howdy Gopher
(20:13:27) DANU_EI: I read your posts
(20:13:41) DANU_EI: Billing is always a challenge
(20:14:25) DANU_EI: The first issue is security, then accuracy and convenience follows pretty quickly on the tail of it
(20:14:32) DANU_EI: Hi Steve
(20:14:57) DANU_EI: Dark has made some comemnts and is going to run a post
(20:15:25) DANU_EI: Let me say we have had many reports of duplicate and erroneous trial billings under the old provider
(20:16:18) DANU_EI: The new hybrid system will allow secure entry via paypal, which if you ues prudently apperas very safe.
(20:16:40) DANU_EI: In news and on forums later this evening whilst trolls sleep
(20:18:04) DANU_EI: AAO send me a pm i love to listen
(20:19:29) DANU_EI: Abus if you particpate in a scam email request from chase bank or paypal that is the problem not your data being left unsecure at paypal
(20:20:04) DANU_EI: I have received dozens a week from many institutions
(20:21:09) DANU_EI: we are planning a new set of options including direct pay and secure entry, these will take time to go through verification
(20:22:38) DANU_EI: I encourage anyone who is concerned to PM myself and I will figure out a way to accept your form of payment , I could use bronze bars on my hatchling in order
(20:23:34) DANU_EI: Seranthor at the risk of being snape like I suggest Horizons didn't have 3 months for me to authenticate servers before we closed the purchae!
(20:25:47) DANU_EI: seranthor please PM me I will get dates and
(20:25:57) DANU_EI: respond
(20:26:58) DANU_EI: we are working on linked accounts to make this easier for you all
(20:29:19) DANU_EI: I think the simple solution is if you are uncomfortable with paypal we will have customer service help you through it with direct pay
(20:29:57) DANU_EI: paypal accounts are able to be established by a customer immediately'
(20:30:49) DANU_EI: I s there anone who has a specific question for me?
(20:31:31) DANU_EI: No you can log into paypal and use your credit card immediately!
(20:32:15) DANU_EI: secure cc transactionsa re available thru a paypal screen thie minute
(20:32:53) DANU_EI: We have a large number of international accounts at Savage eden
(20:33:06) AA0: they will only sub until the bank shuts them down
(20:33:08) DANU_EI: Using the same billing system
(20:34:03) DANU_EI: Can I suggest the paypal system is easy and secure?
(20:35:06) DANU_EI: OK so if someone wants to play and doesn't trust paypal we will provide a direct bill option.
(20:39:46) DANU_EI: ok i think I have heard desires of these troops
(20:41:19) DANU_EI: we will turn off cc entry and allow the form to become printable in next several hours and use snail mail to carry that information to EI office.the f
(20:44:34) DANU_EI: Well if someone wishes to continue playing we will accept a check in the mail as well....\
(20:45:46) DANU_EI: Understood
(20:47:31) DANU_EI: We will accept paypal as a secure form of entering creit card payments and direct billing outside of web environment
(20:48:37) DANU_EI: We are willing to have a customer service rep post your account manually and receive your check
(20:49:16) DANU_EI: we will add secure credit card in future, Paypal is here now
(20:49:34) DANU_EI: Verification of system and site is under way.
(20:49:45) DANU_EI: and takes weeks
(20:50:43) DANU_EI: I believe a credit card is minimum requirement for paypal not a bank account
(20:51:21) DANU_EI: your bank account information is not entered into a server.....your payment is poted as received
(20:51:38) DANU_EI: posted
(20:52:03) DANU_EI: So moo... send me an email as to how yo wish to pay.
(20:55:46) DANU_EI: Information is purged from server into site
(20:55:54) DANU_EI: into on site fiel
(20:56:39) DANU_EI: What is your question
(20:57:13) DANU_EI: Plink you can ask CTO any question you wish
(21:00:30) DANU_EI: The page is down and will be edited then brought back up and changes announced
(21:00:46) DANU_EI: Please consider paypal
(21:01:07) DANU_EI: we have accepted many forms of payment for Savage eden and kept mcustomers happy
(21:01:57) DANU_EI: he is pulling it down now
(21:02:16) DANU_EI: plink lying is not a good choiice of words
(21:02:50) DANU_EI: I believe you can listen and make your own calls
(21:03:10) DANU_EI: So people play asherons call , savage eden and Horizons
(21:03:29) DANU_EI: some people are slow typists like me
(21:03:37) DANU_EI: most people are reasonable
(21:04:10) DANU_EI: we try real hard to take care of people
(21:08:23) DANU_EI: Is the site downnow/
(21:09:04) DANU_EI: Ok I apologize for speaking 60 seconds too qucikly
(21:09:31) DANU_EI: Will be abck up shortly
(21:11:55) DANU_EI: We have a team being built and plan to add new content and in game live events
(21:12:57) DANU_EI: The team still needs an artist and an additional programmer
(21:13:15) DANU_EI: server and client team is in place
(21:14:27) DANU_EI: Simulation programming is going to be a combination of old tulga and new EI for a period of time
(21:15:50) DANU_EI: Abus can you mail me a money order?
(21:17:10) DANU_EI: Plink which announcement?
(21:21:05) DANU_EI: The details of how anyones information is being sotred can be directed through Darka nd admin suport will answer directly.omething that
(21:21:25) DANU_EI: We are not communicating throught hte game only
(21:22:07) DANU_EI: we use the news page and the forums as well as game manager
(21:22:40) DANU_EI: Plink are you interestred in a dialogie or further ranting
(21:23:04) DANU_EI: We try to reach the players for their input in game as many do not go to the forums
(21:23:27) DANU_EI: no tathar info is not my in box pm me
(21:24:28) DANU_EI: Ok I am not signing off but would like a
(21:24:54) DANU_EI: Ok well our CTO will read it at info and get it to me
(21:25:18) DANU_EI: sure
(21:27:41) DANU_EI: LOL
(21:28:10) DANU_EI: Guys I am patient and understand stress, i have apologized for any inconvenience
(21:28:56) DANU_EI: Plink send an email to info address CTO and he will correspond with you.
(21:30:08) DANU_EI: Plink please feel free to dialogue with me directly I listen to Gopher as well
(21:34:03) DANU_EI: tathar it is working fine but send one to zack he is in line not me
(21:36:02) DANU_EI: Ty Dark
(21:36:09) DANU_EI: Ty dark
(21:36:53) DANU_EI: Anyone have any other questions
(21:38:11) DANU_EI: Plink I think we have given you a number of avenues to dialogue Dark has an email adr and will get your questions up to our company president
(21:38:30) DANU_EI: Lex pm dark
(21:38:42) DANU_EI: he will answer questions directly
(21:39:03) DANU_EI: we are accepting paypal fro secure credit card payment
(21:39:26) DANU_EI: If you dont trust paypal we will take a check or a money order
(21:39:52) DANU_EI: We are going to charge on anniversary sates
(21:39:58) DANU_EI: dates
(21:40:12) DANU_EI: renewal
(21:41:04) DANU_EI: Plink maybe you should find a nother game
(21:45:12) DANU_EI: Plink I truly hope you will play Horizons and will some day be willing to send a money order to EI
(21:45:43) DANU_EI: I am going to chaos unless someone has another question
(21:46:10) DANU_EI: I repeat I need bronze bars in order
(21:46:38) DANU_EI: LO we are trying to get to all avenues

[Landowyn]

Are we at "Savage Eden" yet?

[Varangaard]

Well, since they have fixed a certain thing and moved the data away, I'll mention what I heard. The data on the account upgrade page was saved into a .txt file. Yes, we know that already. But the real fun begins here: the directory and file the info were saved into were accessible via a browser and the data was there for all to see. Perhaps someone didn't understand the concept of Apache directories that get accessed from outside, and those that do not?

[Seranthor]

(And hi to everyone who may or may not remember this old-timer! *grin*)

I do remember you, and I miss your contributions.

[Menkure]

Well, since they have fixed a certain thing and moved the data away, I'll mention what I heard. The data on the account upgrade page was saved into a .txt file. Yes, we know that already. But the real fun begins here: the directory and file the info were saved into were accessible via a browser and the data was there for all to see. Perhaps someone didn't understand the concept of Apache directories that get accessed from outside, and those that do not?

Their server admins don't even know how to set up a simple .htaccess file

*boggle*