What REALLY drove players away?

[Gralak-Ironbender]

AAMER!!

Havent forgotten the ol spear-chucker have you?

Good god. I figured I would not recognize anyone on these boards anymore. I regret that I find myself drawn back to these boards only because of interest in this billing issue with EI.

While I have not played horizons for nearly two and a half year, there were some definate good times I had while a part of EoI (eyes of istaria). I was one of several individuals who brough about the freeing of the dryads on our server. I was one of the first to explore and run lil dragons through their rites of passage to adulthood. In a way, Horizons will always have a special place in my heart.

Horizons was my first MMO. I have since graduated onto WoW and find the grind very tedious there. But what was it that drove me away from horizons in general?

1)Lag was the first issue. Lack of content was another. Horizons is still refered to as, by other wow-ers whom have played it, the crafters MMO.

2)Engine client problems in Tazoon proper. Beautiful city..laggy as all hell, however.

3)Lack of engaging quests and diversity of mobs. When I left, Horizons was using and abusing the various models of golems and whisps in order to provide us with 'new' creatures to fight.

4)When Horizons was still under the company Artifact Entertainment, it was promised to players that player-created content would be added into the game. Many amature artists and programmers wanted to improve and broaden the level of emersion that Horizons offered us at the time. New weapon models, new structures, new creatures. Some artistic players went as far as to remix existing Horizons ambient music and background noises to increase levels of realism. Unfortunatly, when I left, there was no real player-generated content officially in the game.

Unfortunatly, I dont think I will ever return to horizons. It's been too long, and I've quite a bit invested in WoW right now (end-game raiding. top guild on the server. that kinda thing) but I wish all of you who remain the best and I honestly hope that you see positive changes in the future for this game

Peace out.
Gralak Ironbender
Spearman of a forgotten age.

[Menkure]

I was there too.

Oh yes, I remember the thread on Tazoon by some beta tester. Something about how Miracle Build (tm) will make all your problems go away. Went on for quite awhile. Others picked up on it.

DB definately was making noises like they were working on the problems, but he never ever used the phrase Miracle Build and he never promised the problems would magically disappear.

You don't actually think a dev would say there was a "Miracle Build" coming would you? I happen to be a dev myself (not in games) and if I seriously said something like that I'd be laughed out of the room.

The Miracle Build Rumor was started by a certain female player.. one that was EXTREMELY WELL KNOWN during beta, for supposedly being very close to the devs... She bragged about even seeing the 'miracle build' in action at AE's offices during a visit.

This same player was a guildmaster on Dawn.. and she earned notoriety when her guild was accused of using the "water walking exploit" to gain access to the island of Felathien and taking all the plots before the bridge to it was built. She was quoted from her forums for not only turning a blind eye to the fact that it was an exploit, but openly encouraged its use and then defending her guild's use of it.

AE took their plots away from them then added in 'trenches' around the islands under the water, as well as adding new code to prevent players from being resurrected if they died in water. No accounts were suspended or any warnings were issued by AE, which aggrevated the community even further.

Anyone remember who that particular lady was? *smile*

-Menkure

[Uro]

EQII and WoW: Especially EQII caused a lot of my friends in the game to leave for greener pastures.

Lack of things to do: Known several dragons that once obtaining 100/100 in craft and adventure, simply ran out of things to do, also a couple of bipeds that after getting X number of schools to lvl 100 simply got tired of the same over and over again. End content is pretty much the same problem in any game though.

Missing friends: As people left it creates a negative network effect, reducing the reasons for staying.

Broken promises: That's a big one, so many promises haven't been met, have been delayed or been downrigth broken.

Client performance: That was one of the big reasons back at the excodus I beleive.

Lack of stability: The fact that HZ never really seemed 100% stable or entrenched, the turbulent times there's been with lay offs, takeovers and billing problems.

GN VS Tulga: The whole mess in EU with GN, lack of support, events, worldmaster, patches, and the uncertanty that exists has caused a lot of people I know to quit also, me amongst them.

[CallakDW]

I left once, I did come back after time, but the reasons I originally left were:
1) Bugs bugs bugs. This was the final draw. All highly visible bugs should allways be worked out on blight before they ever make it to chaos or order. The devs repeatedly fail to do this.

2) Boordom. There was very little reason to actually explore Ishtaria. No easter eggs, no suprises, it would actually be nice if the devs would throw a few crazy things into the game and not announce them. There was also very little creativity in the quests that do exist.

3) Frame rate. The game still falls well behind games like WoW, and if they can be compared, Oblivion. Granted Oblivian is single player, but graphics wise it blows HZ away and still achieves a better frame rate. Part of this problem is one primary problem the game still deals with, it's tendancy to gobble more memory every time one goes to a new place. It really should have a cleanup process to clear some of this out eventually.

4) Incomplete engine. No fall damage. Monsters still walk through obsticals. A paper masche(sp?) world.

[Bhalzamon]

it was three things that drove people away in my mind:

1) a long list of broken promises - particularly the promise of development. How was tier V implmented orginially? With the vielo - I'm sorry if I don't feel like paying over 1g for one of 50 forms when I was supposedly one of the richest on shadow shard with 20g. I can't imagine what that was like for normal levelers. What happened to the war with the WA? When did I stop leveling classes for character progression and started leveling them to kill time?

2) Bugs, bugs, more bugs. God this game is the absolute worst when it comes to performance. I've played betas and alphas that are more stable. It takes forever and a day to load up. Then repeat that process 8x for going through ports to find things. Then oh crap, Hz is taking up 750 mb of my 1gb ram and just crashed my computer.

3) Lack of potential for the future. There never was a lasting concept to keep people glued to their seats and playing this game. It was always just a hint at an increased tier. A little bit more of what you've already had, just with a different roman numeral. I know I may be in the minority of people here, but I am just not that excited about getting into tier VI items. What does that mean? Well just another long list of comps I've got to gather to replace everything I have with a "mithril" label to "Adamantium" The experience wont change much. I doubt there will be even a new monster model in tier Vi. just the same mobs, with more hp, and upgraded attack levels.

These are the reasons I quit back a few years ago, and why I'll be gone by the end of the year probably.

dont sugar coat it son , we can take it. Your probably scarin the lil uns Cap'n.
But I really think you hit the nail on the top. ya summed up well , but there is an opportunity for the new owners to get back alot of the old customers if they do well and listen and act accordingly . Right then , well gl with that , ill cya in the game. Oh yeah u told me to remind everyone that your givin away free shoulder pets to the first 30 peeps who give you a tell next time your on ... ... just this one time though i think ... ..

[Justa Mirage]

You know the sad thing I keep thinking and pondering is?

What if...

Let's say you are working at a company and a co-worker or supervisor violates your civil rights, but is also a brown noser. You know that if you make any waves, your complaints will fall on deaf ears, and could have reprocussions.

Now let's say you decide to bring the issue up, you get fired, and you "fight" for your job back in court and win. Would you WANT to work at this company again? The bosses / supervisors will make your job a living hell, forcing you to want to quit, and do it in such a fashion as not to violate any of the company rules... now put this in perspective with EI and Horizons...

Have you ever thought they had no intention of running the game, and without "breaking any rules" whittle the playerbase down by not providing updates, communication, and offering shoddy, if not mind boggling stupid billing solutions, just to force you to "quit" so the game somehow defaults either back to Tulga (sais players) or they can sell off the skeleton (technology / servers) minus the subs and then count it as a loss on next year's taxes?

I know... sounds like a conspiracy theory... but hey... dumber things have happened.

[Tantalyr]

And what possible motivation would EI have to do that, Justa? Just to lose the money they spent on acquiring Horizons???

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

And what possible motivation would EI have to do that, Justa? Just to lose the money they spent on acquiring Horizons???

/sarcasm on

Which is why they spent all that time to ensure a secure way to manage our accounts....

/sarcasm off

If they aren't interested in protecting my monetary security, why should I suppose they are interested in financial security of their own investments?

This company is REALLY starting to scare me.

[Sledge99]

Two weeks ago, EI purchased part of Horizons. This news came as a bit of a shock to the player base. No one knew anything about EI and so web searches were started, questions asked, and concerns mounted. This was all quite normal since an MMO is a living, changing entity and an external change had occurred that could have a great impact.

EI now had the opportunity to step up, introduce themselves, present information that would calm a lot of the concerns. I pretty much expected that it would take about a week to get things started.

It has now been 2 weeks and today the player base is almost in full revolt. Here are several things that happened or did not happen to put us where we are today.

1. Horizon Game. I would have liked to see the technical staff from Horizons transfer over to EI. Since that didn’t happen, I fully expect that it may be 2-3 months before the next patch. It is disappointing but not a disaster. It will take some time for a new group to be productive.

2. Communications. This is one area where EI has fallen flat on their face. The first point needed was 1 or 2 active Community Reps. I do mean active. Secondly, they needed to present information to the players. The use of IRC has to be one of the poorest methods of presenting information and answering questions. It is like a dozen people shooting at you at once. You are trying to dodge all, catch one, and answer it before the next one. A much better method would be to capture user questions and concerns every day, reach an answer or let us know there is not an answer yet, and post the questions/answers on the forums. The absence of a Community Rep is a serious issue and is way past needing to be resolved.

3. Short Term/Long Term plans for Horizons. Due to statements being made indicating that live events were going to be the main focus in the future of Horizons, the player base needs the full truth on this. If there is/will be development and the completion of developed/designed features, the players need to have a rough estimate as to when they can be expected.

4. Due Diligence. When purchasing anything, it is expected that you would have performed due diligence on what you were buying. Even though the purchase was quick, the indications are that this has been a process of several months. All of the questions should have been asked and answered from the game, cash processing, staff and transfer perspectives. Tulga may have been reaching bankruptcy, but mishandling the purchase may get EI into that very same situation. Just good business practices.

5. Billing. There is no other way to describe the billing change than it is a disaster. CC billing has been/is/will be the preferred method of billing for MMO games. To start in a secured area to log in and then switch to an unsecured open area for critical information just screams incompetence. While I do not expect expertise in all areas by EI, I DO expect that you will bring in someone that is competent to drive or assist in doing this type of process up to legal and ethical standards.

All of these missteps leads me to only one conclusion. I am forced to terminate my accounts and go elsewhere. I really do like Horizons, but I am having grave misgivings about the company now responsible for its future.

I will continue to check in and see if this disaster is fixed and EI turns into a company that can be trusted with this responsibility. Perhaps is 6 months I may return once again.

[Varangaard]

Anyone remember who that particular lady was? *smile*

I play on the EU side of the pond, but I remember the hell that got raised on Tazoon forums over this waterwalk exploit. It was one of her own guildies, I recall, that finally told about this to the developers. The idea of the 'waterwalk', I believe, was to have a group go underwater in phases, then keep walking and resurrecting each other when running out of air. You can thank this incident for the continued inability to rez anyone who has died underwater. The guild no doubt tried to leave their mark on the word - and they did but not in a manner they thought.

The GM did make a goodbye post some time back. If I cared one bit, I should be able to spelunk the name.

[LaughingOtter]

And what possible motivation would EI have to do that, Justa? Just to lose the money they spent on acquiring Horizons???

Maybe Horizons is too big for them and they figure they can still make a profit with minimal staff overhead, no development expenses, and a tiny player base (like, the size of Savage Eden's...) that consists of those last few die-hard players who are happy with a perpetual, unchanging sandbox game.

Maybe EI's terms with CP Baker are based on how many active subscriptions the game has as of a specific date and they are TRYING to tank them so they get a better price. See above for what happens next...

Maybe they are trying to set a world record for fastest self-destruction of an MMO.

Maybe EI wants the subscriber base to drop so much that they can shut the game down, hire a team to redevelop the game, and release the 'race wars' version of the game in a few years.

There are any number of possible scenarios that would explain their actions. Being committed to new development, new game features, and continuing to grow the game doesn't seem to be one of them.

[Helcat]

sometimes information you became privy to probably
should not be posted, LO...

[Jayne]

It looks like a bunch of maybe's Helcat. I dont think anyone has any information. Communication is the main issue and were not getting any. And I still dont see any acknowledgement of billing issues here.

[LaughingOtter]

sometimes information you became privy to probably
should not be posted, LO...

I posted a bunch of hypotheticals that I thought might answer Tant's question. I never claimed they were facts or "inside information", if that's what you are trying to say. The only source for facts on EI's motivations would be EI itself, and I can assure you they have told me exactly nothing.

However, if you have enough "inside information" from EI to know that one of those hypotheticals is close to the truth, I'd be delighted if you would prevail on your source to come forth and make an official statement of exactly what EI's intentions are.

[Helcat]

...

[Aamer Khan]

Must you 3 ( not you tant ) derail another thread?

Lots of strong feelings at the moment, and letting them run rampant is not helping anyone, even yourselves.

This thread is to show what DID happen before, WHY it happened, and hopefully HOW it can be prevented in the future.

It was not for idle supposition.

[LaughingOtter]

Quite correct, Aamer. My apologies.

[snickel]

I think this thread is fine because it is yet another answer to the important question 'what do players want'...

I left Unity because of my impression that GN had (to put it mildly) a serious communication problem with its customers. That included support and misleading statements given by some of its employees on the forum.

I had almost given up on the game at one time due to lag and crash problems.

Many people in my guild left because of the merge and all the upheaval it caused with the plot auctions. At the same time EQII and WOW appeared on the scene and those that were looking for a new challenge (mainly the adventurers) were attracted. And others followed in their tracks to be with their friends again.

Things that would cause me to leave:
If the option to become a multicrafter was weakened.
If I lost my plot for the third time.
If a serious exploit would happen and not be fixed.
If some bugs made playing impossible for weeks and weren't acknowledged, let alone fixed.

Next to the game mechanics the communication with game support and development is most important to me.

[Mordaris]

I left initially (after playing from early beta, through release, up to six months after - I followed the game from its earliest stages, the game I REALLY wanted to play, when David Allen and crew put out the original design document, and was ultimately forced out through Bowman's woefully unscrupulous tactics, but I digress..) because dragons, the one thing that they touted as being most unique about the game, were FAR from finished, and because they completely ignored the beta-testers' pleas not to release due to the unfinished nature of the thing.

I came back recently, and was enjoying it, despite the presence of some of the same bugs that infuriated me from beta(lag, long load times, memory leaks, crashes, mobs not loading until you find yourself in a crowd of them, signs showing up in Korean-wtf is THAT about?), that is until this new company silliness. I won't be renewing my subscription, alas. I do not want to take the chance of being double, triple, or quadruple-billed by these "people". Perhaps if they get their act together, I might consider a return, but for now, I am leaving Istaria..again.

[Kulamata]

I remember very little about the "Korean" signs except that it showed up very early, and that there is a simple fix. Perhaps someone whose memory is still functional can supply the answer.