Since we will not be getting the confectioner changes...

[Goriax]

As a coder myself, I know that when I inherit such projects it is *never* "clean, elegant or well-documented" enough for my purposes...

There are levels of clean. Sure, there's absolutely beautiful code which is rarely seen. Then there's the normal stuff. Then there's the truly horrible. After having to deal with the truly horrible a few times I'm just happy when I don't have to deal with it in a new project. I've gotten to where I can use all the tools I have at my disposal to drill down into most reasonably written code without taking particularly long to come up to speed.

I hadn't been thinking about any propriatary languages. Well, Smegler is gone and if he's smart he'll never come back. If there isn't any documentation I guess they'll just have to figure it out from the existing code and knowing what it does. Not a job I'd care to have.

If AE/TG implimented a propriatary language with NO documentation of that language then my opinion of their level of professionalism just took a nosedive. It's one thing to skimp on the documentation of a program written in a well known language like C++. That's a sin but a relatively minor one (or at least a common one). It's something else to impliment an entire propriatary language and never document it. If the language isn't straightforward or very similar to other languages, and if there's a lot of stuff written in that language I guess it might qualify as truly horrible.

Ironically, the more professional TG was and the better process they had, the easier it will be to take over from them. This is one of the reasons so many programmers write crappy code -- job security.

[LaughingOtter]

If AE/TG implimented a propriatary language with NO documentation of that language then my opinion of their level of professionalism just took a nosedive.

I suspect that anything short of "Xev for Dummies" is going to be considered "not documented", regardless of how much actual documentation there is. It's a very subjective area.

[AA0]

The people that orginally wrote that code are long fired, and going back to document the whole thing just isn't feasible. The original devs seemed to not know what they are doing at all (look at the client, almost everything is broken in it), no documentation. They didn't keep their jobs.
Smeglor was overburdened with work from what we hear, no way he could document what he knew.
One the plus side, the latest client changes, when they ripped out the loading and sound etc have been documented, but the rest isn't.

[Goriax]

So whoever was managing the development didn't even demand some sort of documentation of the language before they implimented it? Not even a two page e-mail summarizing it? Had they ever managed a development project before? Did this manager expect those developers to stick around for the rest of their lives? And then to compound the blunder, they fired those developers thus making sure it wouldn't be documented?

Never mind. If this happened many years ago during the blackout I can make a guess who that manager was and from other things I've heard I shouldn't be surprised at this blunder.

If there was truly no documentation of something that major that was a disaster waiting to happen even if the sale had never occurred. What if Smegler got another job or got run over by a crazed cabbie or something? Did they expect him to stay there forever?

This keeps getting better and better.

Surely this language can't be all that complicated and they ought to have enough examples of the code in front of them. I guess they'll have to just figure it out from that.

Maybe if they ask REAL nice they can convince Smegler to jot down a few notes on how to use this language which might help. Of course if they booted him out the door with cries of never darken this door again then they'll get what they deserve. Unfortunately, us players are caught in the middle.

[AA0]

Early development was run by David Allen, and we have heard the rants of how messy things were back before release numerous times in IRC by ex-devs. I'm sure smeglor will read the boards and comment when he has time.

[LaughingOtter]

If TG had lost Smeglor, yes, that would have been a serious blow; however, while TG may not have had someone ready to replace Smeglor at a moment's notice, they would have had programmers on-hand who knew the game systems already. I expect that training one of them would have been rough, but doable in a reasonable length of time.

EI does not have those knowledge resources. They have to start from scratch. Big difference.

[Dravatar]

Which kinda brings us full circle.

In 1999, when the big Y2K scare happened, you'd really have been surprised at how many companies were scrambling. Not only did they not have people that could change the code to legacy systems, they couldn't find the source code to do it. It literally had to be done at the executable code level in some cases.

Take an executable program and reverse engineer it into some kind of source, usually machine assembler. Change it, re-compile it and go.

Assembler is self-documenting. The code you see is exactly what the machine is doing.

See the machine. Feel the machine. Be the machine.

[Dravatar]

...This is one of the reasons so many programmers write crappy code -- job security.

I know it seems like that a lot, but I sincerely doubt that it really is ever intended as this from the start.

"Crappy code" comes about for a lot of reasons. Not knowing what your doing is one of them, but so are deadlines, and most importantly, maintainence. No two programmers program in the same "style." We are naturally creative people (shameless programmer plug, here) and that shows in our code. When someone other than the original programmer updates a program, chances are very good they won't do it like the original would have. Add to this the confusion of understanding whole systems of programs interacting with one another, multiple programmers each with their own style, and you can see how a specific program can quickly turn into a steaming pile of .....spaghetti.
This is especially true of systems over a period of time coupled with programmer turnover.

[AA0]

I remember asking a Dev once what if something randomly unfortunately happened to Smeglor? They said TG probably would have just closed.

[Dravatar]

That can be a big problem, especially in small companies. Larger ones usually have backup personnel, smaller ones sometimes just can't afford the extra salaries.

[Goriax]

I know it seems like that a lot, but I sincerely doubt that it really is ever intended as this from the start.

"Crappy code" comes about for a lot of reasons. Not knowing what your doing is one of them, but so are deadlines, and most importantly, maintainence. No two programmers program in the same "style." We are naturally creative people (shameless programmer plug, here) and that shows in our code. When someone other than the original programmer updates a program, chances are very good they won't do it like the original would have. Add to this the confusion of understanding whole systems of programs interacting with one another, multiple programmers each with their own style, and you can see how a specific program can quickly turn into a steaming pile of .....spaghetti.
This is especially true of systems over a period of time coupled with programmer turnover.

Oh I exaggerated it, but I do know specific programmers who don't go out of their way to make it easy for those who come after them just to make themselves hard to replace. Or make the code messier then need be.

I personally try to avoid that attitude. My feeling is that if I have to resort to that sort of crap to keep my job I either need to find another job anyway or I'm in the wrong business. However, there are those with that attitude.

And yes, horrible code has other reasons too. I sure see enough of it every day. Programmers also come in all sorts of ability levels. The C++ community is even worse because there's a lot of dinosaurs who got into it from C and still write C++ code as if it were C code. And yes, some programmers do indeed LOVE to write stuff which nobody else can understand. As one put it: "I had to work to write this, anyone who reads it should have to work too."

Programmers are just like any other people. Some are competant, some aren't, some are nice people, some are real jerks.

[Frith-Rae]

woo I helped hijack the thread *laugh*

But yea..to summarize..they ain't gonna be any fixin's or changins' coming for a pretty long time....

[JDavidC]

Well, I really think EI have just dropped the ball on the staff issues. Not keeping any of the original devs around (but just the odd maint person), especially if there's a proprietary programming language sounds very dangerous to me. Yes, I am a programmer myself, and there's no way I'd want to get rid of the dev team, especially if they use a programming language I know nothing about. EI programmers that do try to update HZ are in for a nasty uphill battle, the result of which may mean we never see an update for a long time, if ever, hence accounts may get cancelled. I'm seriously considering cancelling my account now because of this.

As far as comments go in source code, I consider them mandatory. I go for comment 'overkill' in my code (read, just about every line, or a set of very closely related lines will have a comment). Not to mention I use Javadoc comments for EVERY single method I write (I'd have to do something similar if I was not programming in Java).

[Guaran]

See the machine. Feel the machine. Be the machine.

lol.

... but I do know specific programmers who don't go out of their way to make it easy for those who come after them just to make themselves hard to replace...

I personally try to avoid that attitude. My feeling is that if I have to resort to that sort of crap to keep my job I either need to find another job anyway or I'm in the wrong business. However, there are those with that attitude.

Thats a good attitude.

Ok thread hijackers... back to my question.

EI any word on gettign EoB back on the blighted sandstone and copper-tin nodes? As well as blighted cedar trees if they exist anyplace.

[Frith-Rae]

in a round about way that did answer your question...

For to do what you're asking, doesn't that require code work? And with noone on staff who is an actual "developer"....

Noone be moving nothin' nohow...

Now if moving drops around doesn't take code knowledge, then continue with the question - I hope you get a response. (may want to try and ask that in the Q/A stickied thread in general)

[Dravatar]

I believe I remember TG discussing "loot tables." If that is all they are, updating a table isn't exactly coding.

That isn't the real time-killer, though. There are some other stabilization issues to be done before thinking about changes.

[Kulamata]

How difficult would a rollback to just before the Tier VI nerfs be?

Another problem about documentation/commenting, is that the writer and reviewing supervisor have a lot of background information. Someone without that background information can find that the commenting has sinkholes.

[MadDwarf]

Programmers are a dime a dozen. There is one on every street corner.

Good programmers that comment their code are exceptionally rare. Most do not comment because they do not want to give away what secrets they may have. I give full credit and salutes to those that picked up developing horizons after the AE thing. Still though EII must not really have any plans on developing this game further than what it is. If they had and they were smart about it they would have hired on 1 or 2 Tulga programmers to continue work they were familar with. To ask any new programmer to come in now and work on the beast that is horizons will be next to impossible. Anyone they do find will require at least 6 months before they know the code well enough to begin development on it. At least before there was David Bowman he knew where everything was and the programmers they hired had his help. EII has no such help.

[Amerelium]

See the machine. Feel the machine. Be the machine.

lol - u beginning to sound like that A.I. in Deus Ex...

[Abraxes]

EoB...and it's confirmed...does come from blighted thornwood trees, I've been trying to see if it comes from anything else but so far, have found nothing, still no luck coming from the sandstone in the Tazoon Crater (The Last Battle), but I still need to see about the blighted bronze and gems outside Parsinia/Sslanis.