I'm sorry, I feel like I'm trolling here and if I am, I don't mean to. But you say that every bug you have seen on blight was fixed before it went live, then how come there are so many OBVIOUS flaws on the production servers? I'm not talking about little things deep in the works of the game that you have to dig at to notice they are there, but things I see allmost every day in plain sight.Originally Posted by MarshDog
Well i dont consider it trolling but yes i would venture to guess every bug that I have seen has been fixed with the excpetions of all the current ones.
I mean simple things spelling errors and things I have caught, I can only play so many alts (32 and counting and so many schools that i cant/ could not have caught them all and with only 3 ancient dragons i would imagine there is stuff that I missed, like going thru a intersection and thinking gee what that ligth green , it usally is when i go thru there , you just dont notice glearing things as much as the small things , im a nit picker and so much attention to detail that I tend to miss the big things , ie whats my bday , where i park.
OK the old sig was too long , this one is better.
I am going to have to say with most others this is a bad ideal but we will probly not be paid tomuch notice. And you will do it. To bad.
Nothing But Love! That's what makes Dragons Fly!
Here is my two coppers token ...
Back in the days of the original AC (Before MSoft bought it), The advocate, sentinel, dispatcher & world manager, program worked verry well. Somemay disagree depending on their playing experience. Each role had limited power's and some player never accepted that we would not cross certain limit. Yes it was more a newcommer service and a un-stuck service or a overall monitor services for the player behaviours. But it was a fair system and people could have access to a review board if disciplinary action was taken. We never understood why EQ program went hay-wired, and when the lawsuit scared MSoft to cancel the program, we immediately saw the language and improper gaming (ie kill stealing) happening immediately. Another aspect was that the advocate & sentinel had dirrect access to the world manager and at the end of a duty tour the would report what type of call they had and had to filled report on all bugs reported to them. The program worked well (on the two world I was assigned to that is) before the purchase by MSoft.
True their role needs to be define clerer then the initial statement, but I quess that is what they will do when they see the folks they have to work with. From experience with the AC group, you don't necessarely need power gamers to make a good team. It all going to depend how the people have the welfare of the game versus their own welfare. The big issue will be to have a all around coverage of the time zone (and our EU friends will quickly ask does this cover their world).
I will not condem the effort EII (some does that too well as soon as a new idea or action is proposed) and start with the negative point a lot seems to bring forward, I would say give them a chance. At least they trying to go forward.
Nalrach, Healer & Guardian, Member of the "Iron Circle" guild
Ramti, Friendly draggy trying to wake-up from long nap.
Bravo DarkEnigmaa.
Advocates are good idea to provide another feedback channel to EII.
Hi ho,
Now that a few more of the details of this notion have been spelled out, I believe it could work out to be a good thing.
Here's the concern / suggestion I have with it now: While I know a lot of folks (myself included) do their best to help when a question is asked in MarketPlace or New Player, I can only come up with a handful that would actually meet all the requirements that Dark spelled out in the OP. How about making multiple advocate titles, or areas of expertise, if you will? I'm thinking of something along the lines of:
"Dragon Advocate" - Might make sense for their title to display "Helien Advocate" or "Lunus Advocate", since that seems more appropriate to the world of Istaria. Anyway - this obviously would apply to dragons that know the factions strength and weaknesses, horde use, and questing needs relative to their advancement.
"Adventure Advocate" - This would be for bipeds that deal with adventuring / character build and quest questions.
"Craft Advocate" - This would be for bipeds that deal with crafting school and quest questions.
Sure, these titles aren't stellar - hopefully someone more creative than myself can come up with a better naming system, but you get the idea here.
Just speaking from personal experience - I would enjoy helping out as an advocate, however I don't have any alts so know nothing about the life of dragons. I've been involved in community projects since early in the game, and generally spent my time in construction work and ensuring folks have the proper gear for adventuring in a timely manner. In other words, I'm not much of an adventurer. On the other hand, I know of plenty of very skilled, multi-classed adventurers who spend their time helping folks with tactical questions, as well as keeping a steady supply of tech comps available to the community, however they don't know much of crafting. By requiring the advocate to have an in depth knowledge of both adventure and craft for bipeds and dragons, it seems to me you're limiting the field to only a handful of players that fit that mold.
Just a thought.
Finn's Player
Just my opinion here
1. It's now been stated they'll have no special powers. It's literally gonna be a "yeah you do it like this" or a "whoops thats a bug, lemme tell EII" situation 9 times out of 10. Ok, we can email EII or send in support tickets, or post on here, but if they have a direct link to GMs and EII, surely thats better than just a static post that they *might* get round to reading
2. People seem to think that an Advocate is going to be walking round showing off his/her title and laughing at all the 'mortals'. In reality, they'll probably be forced to play x hours each day/week, when they'd rather be relaxing after a hard day at work playing their own char/watching tv/wahtever and not answering a ton of questions, going back and forth between players and gms, or submitting bugs.
3. On the in-game events, I think this is best left to the devs. Special events may be ok to have input from, but ideally I think that the main world events should be thought up by devs since they're story-advancing.
4. I think some are upset that the new Advocates would get all the thanks, and those who have been helping for years will be ignored and forgotten, but you know you are all very much appreciated and will be until you stop helping!
I see it as a good idea. If it were on Unity, I'd be pleased since GN are never to be seen and support tickets are NEVER answered, any extra help would be good. Shame it isn't.
Advocates would be a good thing if for no other reason than the near instant feedback that EII could get from them.
And to all those concerned about abuse or having others presume to speak fro them, All I can say is how can anyone speak for you if your involved as an advocate? How better to watch for abuse than become an advocate and make sure it does not happen.
Fear and distrust, hidden behind words of caution, still reveal the intent.
As a new dawn rises over Istaria, may we all band together to meet the challenges!
Continuing Development of Horizons... SWEET!
We're still evaluating the advocate program and I assure you that we won't be moving forward with anything, until we've thoroughly examined both the pros and cons of the system we choose. Our goal is to further support what's working in the community, not to change everything for the sake of changing it. Creating a system that left players vulnerable to bullying wouldn't be good for anybody.
I'm sorry, Aamer, but that proverb (if it is one) is simply nonsense. While it is true that sometimes we fear what we secretly wish to do onto others, one of the most important ways to learn about life is to profit from other people's experience, including negative experience. I do not have to be burglarized to take precautions and lock my door -- and the locking of doors does not signify that I secretly wish to become a successful burglar myself.
Not everyone who warns of potential abuse is a potential abuser -- to imply such is a very unfair way to see things.
Most of those who have advised caution do miss one or more of the qualifications to apply for the ingame advocates job, so they would have no chance to become one and do ingame supervision. To point out the fallacies of the concept in advance is actually all most of us can do.
snickel wigglsniff (retired) Twilight Crusaders on Unity
poggle wigglsniff (gnomish crafter and mage) semi-retired on Order
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A gnomish house should not just sit there, it should definitely DO something!
Really bad choice of words. As Snickel put it so well... Just because I lock my door at night doesn't mean I secretly wish to be a burgular. Yeah, the reason I wear my seat belt while driving is because I would like to be in Jetta commercial or actually be thrown around in a real life accident.
I've learned from other game experiences, what it is to have in game advocates. I'm not totally against it - I was against the "non-defined; give them powers; lets make some one special because they apply for it rather than just using those that have done the same thing (new player help) since day one; I'm not going to define the program - I'll just let you guess what it will intail..." starter conversation/introduction that EI began.
Putter'er of Crafts and Near Miss-Adventurer on Chaos
Guild Leader - Council of War
C.O.W. : "Milking the WA Daily....fear the cow"
Intent is the key word in that sentence.
I don't think those that spread fear and distrust hidden behind words of caution are intending on becoming abusers...
I beleive they are intending on preventing the feared idea from happening.
The key, is that they are defining consequences before the idea is even tried or the details of how it would even be done have been decided.
This happens all the time with people.
That sentence is an acknowledgement that I understand their intent. But your two takes are interesting too.
That is my opinion.
As a new dawn rises over Istaria, may we all band together to meet the challenges!
Continuing Development of Horizons... SWEET!
Here's another truth for you...
"The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior...."
Please, EI, I implore you to go read back a few pages in the Order Forum and see what "past behavior" has predicted as road bumps for this new idea.
And then everyone can ask themselves...
What will you do if a player you know to be a jackbutt gets an Advocate position?
What will you do if someone you've seen harassing and insulting others gets an Advocate position?
How will you (EI) handle this? Chat logs from players? Number of people complaining? Who's word against who's will you take? What would it take to "take an advocate" out of their position?
Now for all those answers, what if it is an Advocate who is targeted unfairly just because someone or a group of someone's just has never liked them?
All this and more has and will happen. How do any of you propose it gets handled?
The "last straw" on the Order Council that brought down the whole business was because a select group of people didn't like that another player got "voted in" to be *organizing* the HELP in New Player Channel. (for all that it entailed just making sure they and others in the group were in there and being helpful...). When that player won the vote, they cried Shennanigans and bad mouthed the work in the community until the whole thing self-imploded. And then they were so pleased that what they had "predicted" had come true.
Please, analyze the past behavior and before this goes forward - have plans and backup plans in place to keep this from being the future.
*sighs sadly*
Frith-Rae BridgeSol
Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
Iea has returned.
Thank you, Nagafen. I hope what you have expressed is shared by (other) decision-makers there at EII. I think introducing a concept to the community for feedback may introduce ideas and possible roadblocks that are not immediately obvious to everyone... it's always good to get several sets of eyes looking at an issue, because someone else will see things (due to their different perspective) than you do...
http://horizons.gamersinfo.net
The first responsibility of a leader is to define reality. The last is to say thank you. In between, the leader is a servant.
Max DePree
What we anticipate seldom occurs; what we least expect generally happens.
Benjamin Disrael
Everything that a person does intentionally (like writing a post) is based on some intent. But to define which specific intent this was usually can not be established without asking the person about it.
Someone voices fear and apprehension -- here is just a small portion of possible intents:
- to get attention
- to avoid negative consequences
- to keep the saftey of the status quo
- to see if others see it the same way
- to find comfort and consolation
- to understand better what is happening
- to further a discussion....
And if that intent should indeed have been 'to prevent a feared idea from happening' then that is exactly the nature of a warning. Warnings are good, warnings are necessary, warnings are valuable.
It is an advantage of human rationality that we can think about consequences ahead of time and shape our decisions accordingly.
snickel wigglsniff (retired) Twilight Crusaders on Unity
poggle wigglsniff (gnomish crafter and mage) semi-retired on Order
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A gnomish house should not just sit there, it should definitely DO something!
Snickle..
Warnings are of course valuable. Please try not to impute what is not there.
First off, that sentence was never directed at you. It was directed to those that still, in the guise of providing service to the community, spread F.U.D. in an effort to keep any good idea from being tried.
As has already been stated by EII, the Advocate program is still in the design stage, and what is known about it is that members will have NO WM powers. For this reason, any other abuses you may wish to warn against are things we as players deal with everyday.
What we see on Chaos is that players CAN respect others very well in NPA, and as a rule, ALL those in that channel are promoted to admins. I have yet to see anyone abuse that, and kick out people they don't like. Sure, it could happen... but hasn't.
The evidence so far does not support the level of fear that is being spread for a program that has not even been put it, nor does it validate worries about rampant abuse, because it has been stated that advocates will not get powers to abuse.
What is often posted by players on the boards, does not accurately reflect what players experience in game. But, new players do come here to try and find out info to help them play the game. I gotta ask, you are interested in helping new players learn the game and stick around right? If so, then why would we NOT want an avenue that improves response time for issues? Why would we not want players that could be expected to help and respond?
As a new dawn rises over Istaria, may we all band together to meet the challenges!
Continuing Development of Horizons... SWEET!
My apologies if that discussion turns partly into a discussion about the use of words instead of about ideas.
But may I remind you of what it was you wrote:
Fear and distrust, hidden behind words of caution, still reveal the intent.
I think it was the term 'revealed' that got me riled, for I consider it very impolite to assume to have determined correctly a hidden intent (and only what was hidden can be revealed). But maybe I'm too sensitive here and the fact that I'm no native speaker plays a part.
In the original advertisement that players should send in their resume to apply for the job the measures taken to avoid abuse were not specified, not even mentioned. People stated examples of abuse they had encountered in other games. I still hold that these intances of 'fear-spreading' were necessary for this discussion. It is what could happen, not what has already happened in horizons that needs to be taken into account.
But never mind -- you yourself hinted that there are certain people who seem to have their own agenda, who want to spread F.U.D. in an effort to keep any good idea from being tried.
Well, here is the test for you: How would you yourself feel if these players were made ingame-advocates?
snickel wigglsniff (retired) Twilight Crusaders on Unity
poggle wigglsniff (gnomish crafter and mage) semi-retired on Order
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A gnomish house should not just sit there, it should definitely DO something!
I would have to agree with this. I for one vote no to in-game advocates in any form sponsored or backed by EI in the form of a free account.I think its a bad idea.
**someone say why?**Ok, I'll tell ya why ...
Because, HZ has plenty of players that already does all these things (and more!) that an Advocate would do, and they don't ask for a special titles, any special status what so ever, they don't ask for in-game rewards, or free subscriptions .. nada.
They do it because they love this game and this community! Thats what makes this community so great!
Cheers!
Kelrie (spelled it wrong when I registerd... Doh!)
Last edited by Kelri; September 3rd, 2006 at 01:38 PM.
Snickle, thanks for that reply.
To respond to your question, I would not believe that anyone trying to prevent the idea from being tried would want to get involved.
However, so that we explore that concept too, let's say they did become advocates. Since all would be equal in standing and would be bound by whatever guidlines are implemented, any possible abuses would be delt with by EII. IF, their agenda is accepted by the entire group of advocates and EII, then who am I to say they are wrong? But if their agenda is not accepted, and they abuse others or the system, then it will become obvious, and will be delt with accordingly. Who are they to stand in the way of progress.
So...
I think that if done right, and advocates are made no better than players in power, but are given opportunity to interact with the devs in behalf of the playerbase, any possible problems will be easy to solve.
As a new dawn rises over Istaria, may we all band together to meet the challenges!
Continuing Development of Horizons... SWEET!
Many of you on Order can remember the re-birth of the Community meetings that occured not so long ago. I'm sure you can also remember team elections, how well it worked in the beginning, before people started using it as a political pissing ground, and popularity contest. To me this advocate deal seems to have the same good intentions, with the possiblity of severe negitive outcome.
Just because someone looks great on an application, doesn't mean they are fit for the job. I can think of several examples. If you are going to go through with this, talk to other players about who you are considering. Often times those who are truely dedicated to helping others will not apply for such a thing.
I keep sitting here thinking that nominations would be an excellent idea, but again I keep returning to the thoughts of cliques and guilds nominating and voting in their own just because they could. It was the downfall of the community meetings. So unless EI wants to go into the game, really get to know people in depth before they choose who to make these "Advocates" I think its a really rotten idea. One bad apple spoils the barrel, and will ruin the good intentions behind the idea in a heartbeat.
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