To Exploit or Not to Exploit

[Aamer Khan]

Good points Phillip.

There are still many things that can be done, that really cannot be fixed until the client is totally rebuilt. Now that all the money making exploits have been removed, there is little that will affect anyone but the player doing them.

Does turning off water really hurt anyone?
( Not directly, but those that can fly over water may feel that a class defining aspect of their character is made cheap by bipeds doing things they should not be able to )

Does climbing steep cliffs or hills as a biped hurt anyone?
( No, but can cause jealousy and the same reaction as the first item I mentioned )

Does afk macroing to get to a rating of 250 hurt anyone?
( only if the person doing it steals mobs from other hunters, or causes others in the area hunting DP's )

Does afk crafting hurt anyone?
( can't see how. So what they get 19 classes to 100? its not like that will affect the economy or the game play of others )

We all like the idea of rules when it comes to controling others actions. We really hate rules when they can affect OUR actions. The truth of all this is, that AE and later TG did not bear in mind the effects of allowing these things to exist, nor were they quick to apply the "rules" evenly across the board. In reacting to the outcry about these exploits, they often made things worse, by acting way to late.

The ONLY party you can rightly blame for exploits existing is the developer that allowed them to exist. You can say that those that take advantage of them are bad, but that a bit disengenuous, when we all have wished we could offset the grind or tedium in some manner. Shoot, some things that have been mentioned here, were things players thought were ok, even getting the ok from a dev. So, before we go and villify anyone, make sure YOU have not tried even ONE of these yourself, even by accident.

[Nalrach]

It depends on what the "Exploit" is, as there are many opinions of what exactly is an exploit.

I tend toward peaches definition of exploit, but their is exploit (in my book) that were dev short sigth and that it was mention then and the dev never bother rectified (ie: guild plot are not really own by the guild). These are in my view the case .. here is a potential exploit, the devs were told, no attempt by the devs to rectify, then is it really an exploit since the devs permits it to be a permanent feature of the game.

So if the devs are told and nothing done (even a plublic announcement this is an official recognized exploit and dower will be banned) .. can the small folks, be more catholic then the pope (or sommething like that).

[Tantalyr]

Does turning off water really hurt anyone?
( Not directly, but those that can fly over water may feel that a class defining aspect of their character is made cheap by bipeds doing things they should not be able to )

While I cannot think of any direct game-playing affect "water-walking" may have presently (other than the rather intangible cheapening of the value of dragon flight you mentioned), there certainly were detrimental affects back during the Land Rush of 2004 as many, many players were shut out of a fair chance at picking up plots on Lerena Island. Though I certainly sympathize with FoxFire's plight--whatever developer okayed the "walk-but-die" routine had to have been an idiot--it certainly negatively affected the rest of the community.

Does afk macroing to get to a rating of 250 hurt anyone?
( only if the person doing it steals mobs from other hunters, or causes others in the area hunting DP's )

Actually, afk adventure macroing potentially negatively affects the community in several ways.

First, of course, as you mentioned afk adventurers had this nasty habit of kill-stealing just about every mob in the spawn field in which they stationed their character just from the way in which they set up their macros. Back in '04 these exploiters were rampant on the Dawn server, so several of us formed "anti-macroer" hunting groups whenever we ran across one. We'd lead some significantly higher beastie into the hunting ground, watch it slay the afk macroer, rez him, lead the beastie back, and rinse and repeat as necessary.

Second, afk macroers (as well as completely power-leveled characters) almost always had no clue at all how to adventure with their characters, and that was invariably deadly to group hunting. I remember joining a pickup group in the Eastern Deadlands with a level 98 Cleric who, as it turned out, possessed only Tier II healing spells because he'd been power-leveled for all but about 5 of his levels. He was utterly useless in the group. I stopped joining groups with folks I didn't know and trust after that. A LOT of folks have had the same experience, and stopped joining groups as well.

Finally, in the long term the folks who afk macro will, in all probability, leave the game once they achieve however many levels in however many adventure schools they want. They have no intention of actually PLAYING the game, just achieving "uberhood." And when they accomplish that, they leave. And that lowers game population. And that's not good for any game.

[Phillip]

afk macroers should be banned for a long time. no excuses.

on water. man, i don't know what to say. btw if they can get the physique to work, are there any swimming animations?

though i rather the crafting animations come first, like that smithie on back of the box.

[Theolaerynn]

afk macroers should be banned for a long time. no excuses.

I still have not heard anyone say why. Personally I can't imagine paying to play a game and then walking away from it to let a macro play for you, but hey, whatever. If that is how they choose to play, and it does not affect me, then what right do I have to say that it is incorrect?

In other words, if you don't like that method then don't use it. Until someone can give reasonable evidence that they are negetively impacted by this then I must assume it is the stance of a bunch of elitist players who don't have a leg to stand on.

[Phillip]

Look at Tant's post, your ticket to the cluebus.

[Nalrach]

"Intended" to work that way.... yes since we were always so informed of what the devs where doing?

ROTFL ... I spilled my coffee.

Well ... we can't. So untill a dev's tell me, I play the best and the fairest I can.

And yes, dev's are always silent an things, but all we can hope is that EII politics will allow them to be "more open".

[Jayne]

Actually I can think of one reason in interfers with others.

If you try and win an item up for auction with your hard earned 5G and this marcoer has 100G...you lose. You worked hard for yuor money and they didn't.

[Sigi]

OK, so you loose. Since when is working hard for (fake)money better than being clever and get it that way? Whole economies are build on clever behaviour. Hard work doesn't pay off and in game you "work hard" because you enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, you quit and go on with something else.
BTW I don't have a clue how to set up such a macro but if that's someones favorite thing to do, be my guest.

[Justa Mirage]

Exploiting in general, which the ticket implies covers a great many things

I loved Tant's post, very to the point of why people ruin the game doing what they do.

UCM (unattended Combat Macroers) aren't really an exploit, but an annoyance, and one that can be dealt with as I and Tant have done to them. They don't exist much anymore as the changes in the hotkey system will stop macros as soon as your health goes up/down, but there are ways to perch and macro a healer / buffer to assist you without putting them in harm's way. (aka a bridge or other "world model" as you fight underneath)

Jayne is absolutely right: How do macroers affect us... by being able to afford things a casual player can't. Nadia means nothing to them if they can replace the gold they spent in a day, after they buy that hard-2-get formula they have been searching for. As for Marketplace bartering / auctions... those with the gold rule, and usually those with the gold did it macroing (not all but a majority of them.)

none of the above are exploits though, just how the person wants to play the game. Unethical and dumb, yes... interrupting other's fun... yes... but not the topic of discussion.

That fine line of interpretation of what an exploit is, also depends on if the developers think so too and then changes come to a patch near you (nerf).

Elars: Found an in-game feature that ended up being not-intended-to work-that-way.
Reavers: Found that Melee Flurry worked with special attacks and a "triple - Double damage max damage attack" from you did wonders on the mobs... since removed. (and took ranged flurry from archers as well)
Everyone: moving causes spellcasting / attacks to be negated (archers especially, but now special attacks allow movement when used)

Most of what we called "exploits" were actually allowed as originally part of the game design. Devs probably didn't anticipate a lot of things that "made their work harder" like players gathering huge amounts of gems and pawning them off for cash. It was like "No one would use their game time for hours on end collecting gems just for cash!!!" now this has been taken care of. Same with the fungus for weavers.

I remember a database entry error in Asheron's Call... a certain weapon, when hand crafted and then sold in bundles, was worth 50 times more than comparable items... you betcha there were 100's of hand clapping macroed crafters standing next to the "archer supply vendors" so they could mass-produce / sell back the darts they made. This is what is (to me) defined as a true exploit... to capitalize on the mistake of a developer (either clerical / unforseen manipulation of in-game abilities) to gain coin / experience / levels / items.

[Jayne]

True, what I mentioned is not a exploit. As far as exploits. If they are in game and all can use then so be it. Wether its right or wrong is up to each of us to decide and play accordingly

[Aamer Khan]

Ok, since we are heading this direction...

Let me ask you guys opinions on a few of the ones you can still do.

1. Remove all water from the game, allowing you to never drown... Exploit or not?

2. Climb up steep hills and almost vertical cliffs... Exploit or not?

3. Run straight through walls or crack in buildings... Exploit or not?

4. Shrinking buildings then re-enlarging them to bypass doors... Exploit or not?

[Theolaerynn]

Look at Tant's post, your ticket to the cluebus.

I think you mean the short bus. Those reasons were not specific to afk macroers, and could be easily avoided in either case. Thus, a rationalization but not rational.

Kill stealing has existed independantly of macroing, as have players who do not know the least bit about how to play in a group setting. There are other places to hunt, and have been even back in the days where you could only really level up by wolves. And if you don't like the person you are hunting with, well, no one is holding a gun to your head. Leave the team or kick them out of it.

So again I say, what reasonable evidence is there of a problem? This has been asked over the years and all folks seem to be able to do is hem and haw and mumble about how they basically hate to see others do something easier than they themselves had to do it.

I can honestly say that in all the time I have been playing Horizons and the EQ's, I have never been impacted by afk macroers. I may not understand that method of game play, but until I see a good enough reason then it is not my place to judge.

[Justa Mirage]

Ok, since we are heading this direction...

Let me ask you guys opinions on a few of the ones you can still do.

1. Remove all water from the game, allowing you to never drown... Exploit or not?

2. Climb up steep hills and almost vertical cliffs... Exploit or not?

3. Run straight through walls or crack in buildings... Exploit or not?

4. Shrinking buildings then re-enlarging them to bypass doors... Exploit or not?

1: yes
2: Maybe but why would you want to?
3: Again maybe, but what advantage does running through a wall have?
4: yes

[Phillip]

1. Remove all water from the game, allowing you to never drown... Exploit or not?

2. Climb up steep hills and almost vertical cliffs... Exploit or not?

3. Run straight through walls or crack in buildings... Exploit or not?

4. Shrinking buildings then re-enlarging them to bypass doors... Exploit or not?

All exploits.

We shouldn't lower our standard because of the dev's inability to fix. They didn't seem to mind "fixing" the stuff we enjoyed that didn't need fixing. Yet the stuff broken since the beginning are still here.

[Jayne]

1. Remove all water from the game, allowing you to never drown... Exploit or not?

2. Climb up steep hills and almost vertical cliffs... Exploit or not?

3. Run straight through walls or crack in buildings... Exploit or not?

4. Shrinking buildings then re-enlarging them to bypass doors... Exploit or not?

1) The removal of water is a cheat as far as I know

2) Setscale, no (was left in by hz for the positive uses)

3) Setscale, no (Justa you can harvest a resource on one side of wall and shrink down and go thru wall to a closer machine)

4) Don't think setscale can shrink buildings anymore, and not sure it ever could. If someone can do this then thats a cheat.


To me an exploit is something in game that anyone can do just by playing the game. For instance Aamer's example of getting to much xp for doing weaver and such. Really I dont know how anyone knows how much is to much?

As far as being able to modify a folder on your pc and get results like jumping super high. I'm not sure if you call that sort of thing an exploit or a cheat. By the way I am the one who apparently complained and got that fixed so I am told ROFL. Even though that was a complaint when I first got on HZ and was already reported. To funny . Oh well guess the grievers have to blame someone and not themselves for using it

[Phillip]

I think you mean the short bus. Those reasons were not specific to afk macroers, and could be easily avoided in either case. Thus, a rationalization but not rational.

Kill stealing has existed independantly of macroing, as have players who do not know the least bit about how to play in a group setting. There are other places to hunt, and have been even back in the days where you could only really level up by wolves. And if you don't like the person you are hunting with, well, no one is holding a gun to your head. Leave the team or kick them out of it.

So again I say, what reasonable evidence is there of a problem? This has been asked over the years and all folks seem to be able to do is hem and haw and mumble about how they basically hate to see others do something easier than they themselves had to do it.

I can honestly say that in all the time I have been playing Horizons and the EQ's, I have never been impacted by afk macroers. I may not understand that method of game play, but until I see a good enough reason then it is not my place to judge.

So when there was this one afk macroer KS-ing all over the gollem area by Aug that didn't affect anyone? or by the wolves? dude there were macroers all over the place. They Xp, they KS, they get a plenty of loot without being there but hey, I'm suppose to respect that playstyle?

Screw that, man. Grow a spine.

You can call me elitist all you want. Dang straight compare to these lame f-tards. They don't even deserve to shine my cargo disk.

[Aamer Khan]

Interesting responses.

I will say that setscale does account for 2, 3, and 4. Number 1 is more of a hack.

However, setscale was allowed to remain for the reasons Jayne mentions, and as such, how can they be considered exploits if sanctioned by the DEVS?

We all have seen the bug with the water that many have currently, and yes to remove water totally is exploiting the way the client files are handled. But I ask you seriously, how this could either give a player an advantage or allow them to level any faster? About the only thing I can see it doing is allowing a player to get from one satyr island a bit faster than having to recall and port around. They will still have to level exactly as before.

All that having been said, am I saying that we all should remove our water?

NO. ( My water is not removed and yes I do use setscale extensively. )

What I am saying is that to exploit or not, is partly the responibility of the devs to control and partly controled by our own personal morals and perspective. Should I point my finger at anyone and call them morally corupt if they choose to use an exploit? I don't believe so. I cannot apply my moral perspective to them any more than they should apply theirs to me. If the Devs decide to punish a player for using an exploit, then we all should learn the lesson that if WE do it too, and get caught, we will get punished. Those that desire to have a good reputation in the eyes of others will not fall for that trap.

[Theolaerynn]

So when there was this one afk macroer KS-ing all over the gollem area by Aug that didn't affect anyone? or by the wolves? dude there were macroers all over the place. They Xp, they KS, they get a plenty of loot without being there but hey, I'm suppose to respect that playstyle?

Screw that, man. Grow a spine.

You can call me elitist all you want. Dang straight compare to these lame f-tards. They don't even deserve to shine my cargo disk.

First, I didn't say I respected that play style, I simply said that it is none of my business. Nothing was done by a macroer that could not be done by hand. What do you do when someone else is hunting in the spot you wanted to hunt in? You either move on, agree to share, or be an ******. This is no different than for a macroer, except some of the basic macros do not have a share clause. But then, neither do rude players. So again, the slight by XP macroers is perceived, not real.

Second, growing a spine does not mean using Might Makes Right tactics to impinge upon someone else just because you feel they should play differently.

Elitist would be far too nice of a term for one who demands that other paying customers play by your rules. That is arrogant to the point of being ludicrous. Good luck with that.

[Theolaerynn]

Interesting responses.

I will say that setscale does account for 2, 3, and 4. Number 1 is more of a hack.

However, setscale was allowed to remain for the reasons Jayne mentions, and as such, how can they be considered exploits if sanctioned by the DEVS?

We all have seen the bug with the water that many have currently, and yes to remove water totally is exploiting the way the client files are handled. But I ask you seriously, how this could either give a player an advantage or allow them to level any faster? About the only thing I can see it doing is allowing a player to get from one satyr island a bit faster than having to recall and port around. They will still have to level exactly as before.

All that having been said, am I saying that we all should remove our water?

NO. ( My water is not removed and yes I do use setscale extensively. )

What I am saying is that to exploit or not, is partly the responibility of the devs to control and partly controled by our own personal morals and perspective. Should I point my finger at anyone and call them morally corupt if they choose to use an exploit? I don't believe so. I cannot apply my moral perspective to them any more than they should apply theirs to me. If the Devs decide to punish a player for using an exploit, then we all should learn the lesson that if WE do it too, and get caught, we will get punished. Those that desire to have a good reputation in the eyes of others will not fall for that trap.

Well said, Aamer. Just because something annoys us does not inherantly make it wrong.