To Exploit or Not to Exploit

[Jayne]

Hummm well I never knew you could change size of buildings nor do I know if you still can.

As far as the water exploit which is a cheat, that allows people to get out of harms way when in a battle they are losing. What puzzles me is why people want to cheat and make everything easy. I have always played games to play and have a challenge. As I have brought up many times if you want easy just buy a PS2 game and the cheat book at the same time. Then you can be done with the game in a weekend if not sooner and go buy another.

Truthfully the real exploit are those that the Dev's don't know about and people use and not tell anyone for there benefit. And yes as Aamer points out, use at your own risk because if you get caught then there maybe a rollback that you dont like.

The funny thing to is some of these people find these exploits and if they kept them to themselves probably would never have been caught, but these same cheaters are so arrogant that they have to brag and do these things in front of others thus drawing attention which gets them caught. Then they cry bloody murder when the powers at be take it away, Duh!

Personally, I dont believe in short cuts and cheats like that, only leads to doing it more and more and before you know it what other things are they cheating in in RL. I'd hate to know

[Bis Armida]

I agree that there is no reason to play a game if you are going to cheat. This is a lesson that my 8-year-old godson just learned. He used a cheat program to beat Diablo II, and now says there's no reason to play. Why play when all the goals have been met? Using exploits cheapens the game experience, in my opinion. I play for the satisfaction of getting my character (s) to the next ability or the next level of tools. Anyone who wants to play with cheated characters should play another game. Perhaps a Nintendo game with a game shark, so he/she can "win" without effort.

Bis Armida
Eglanor
Teren Armida
Devonee Wingfighter
Obsidian Order on Order

[Gremblthrg]

How do AFK macroers negatively affect others? Here's a few ways....

First, as has been mentioned, they often kill steal. A relatively minor point, and admittedly more of a nuisance, since they don't tend to move very far, and some active players KS as well. Even so, being KSed is irritating, annoying, etc.. hence is negatively affecting.

Second, they cheapen the game experience for others, by attaining levels and money with no effort, just leaving the macro to run 24/7. Casual or hard core gamer doesn't matter, either would be hard pressed to compete with an AFK macroer on exp. When a legit player who puts in hours and hours to accomplish something is trumped by someone who took a few minutes to set up a macro, particularly if they used a third party program to do so, it belittles all the effort legit players put in. That sort of thing encourages players to quit, reducing paying subscribers (and all that entails.. quite literally killing the game).

Third, for all that AFK levelling, they get access to new content more quickly and easily than players who try hard, in whatever spare time they have. Being higher level, they can take on new higher level mobs with better loot sooner, finish higher level events and quests, and win bids on new or rare items in the marketplace, or otherwise be able to buy them when people who have put in alot more of both time and effort cannot.

Fourth, making money with AFK macroing ruins the economy for everyone, by driving up prices on rares and semi rares, effectively making the regular items that most people can sell have less value. This in turn means that to get decent items, the legit players have to spend even more time than before.

Fifth, using scripting or macroing tools, etc is against the EULA (paragraph 12, go take a look), and when some players are seen as repeatedly breaking the rules without being punished, it makes the rules less effective and encourages others to break the rules, either in the same way or in other ways (such as offensive behavior, for example). This negatively affects the atmosphere of the game for many players.

Any of these happening can drive other people from playing, shrinking the community and the subscriptions. While I haven't seen much of a problem with people cheating via hacks and afk macroing/scripting in this game, I have played another game where it was much more rampant, and have seen all these effects firsthand.

Even AFK macroing on a smaller scale mostly only upsets some players, that in and of itself is negatively affecting others - and is against the EULA, so is a punishable offense. If it wasn't negatively affecting them, this thread wouldn't have come up in the first place.
- Grem

[Rhyssa]

I'm going to vilify myself here and now. I was one of the "water walking" 'exploiters', and to this day I'm still infuriated that this is considered an exploit. We did not walk on water. We walked out, we died. A healer rezzed us. We walked further before we drowned again. It got us to the island (Lerena) for the cost of a few death points.

I've heard that 'exploit' referred to many times, but never knew the details. I always assumed it was people taking advantage of an in-game bug of some sort. Now that I know how it was done, I have to say I don't see it as an exploit at all, but rather the result of clever thinking and being willing to pay the price of a few death points.

Although this thread has veered from the op's question of whether or not to exploit onto what exactly constitutes an exploit, it's very interesting reading other people's view points as to what makes an exploit.

[Rhyssa]

How do AFK macroers negatively affect others? Here's a few ways....
First.....

Here's an example of another, and one that not only applies to afk macroers, but to anyone who uses an exploit:

those with the gold rule, and usually those with the gold did it macroing (not all but a majority of them.)

If some players make a lot of gold (or levels) by exploiting, then other players tend to assume that *most* players with a lot of gold (or levels) did it by exploiting.

I'm currently working on getting all of my craft schools to 100 for the mastercraftsman emblem (if it ever goes live).
If other players exploit a bug and get all their crafts to 100 in a matter of hours, not only does it cheapen the emblem, but other players are going to assume that I also used said bug.

First, that hurts my reputation, which happens to be important to me. That can have one of two effects: either I'll quit playing, or I'll cheat to hell and back for a week and flaunt it in everyone's faces, and then I'll quit playing.

Second, it makes me think what's the point of my working hard to do something legitimately when others are getting the same result in a matter of hours - I might as well just not bother. So then I have nothing to do and I'll quit playing.

I don't think the majority of players got their gold by exploiting, but actually earned it. I think only a very small number got it by exploiting - but then we again come into the definition of exploit.

[Aamer Khan]

Fine points there Rhyssa.

Here is my final words on the matter of, "To Exploit or Not to Exploit"...

Those that exploit are self-correcting errors, so I'll just move along now.

[Theolaerynn]

First, as has been mentioned, they often kill steal. A relatively minor point, and admittedly more of a nuisance, since they don't tend to move very far, and some active players KS as well. Even so, being KSed is irritating, annoying, etc.. hence is negatively affecting.

Being KSed is annoying as hell, but again, it is much easier to avoid a macroer than an active player. Repeating the KS argument doesn't make it any more correct, it is simply not relevant to the conversation. If you choose to be in the area with a macroer dispite other places to hunt, then you have no room to complain. It would be different if there weren't plenty of critters to go around, but that simply isn't the case. And yet again, active players do this too.

Second, they cheapen the game experience for others, by attaining levels and money with no effort, just leaving the macro to run 24/7. Casual or hard core gamer doesn't matter, either would be hard pressed to compete with an AFK macroer on exp. When a legit player who puts in hours and hours to accomplish something is trumped by someone who took a few minutes to set up a macro, particularly if they used a third party program to do so, it belittles all the effort legit players put in. That sort of thing encourages players to quit, reducing paying subscribers (and all that entails.. quite literally killing the game).

This is a very common and very unreasonable argument. Basically this assumes that leveling is some kind of race that everyone must participate in, and that is absolutely not the case. Do you gripe about the folks that refuse to level because they are mostly social players? Of course not, because they do not challenge your perceived superiority. File AFK Macroers into this same category, because they too are not in the race. Sure they level faster than you, but they do not put the effort in that you do, and therefore disqualify themselves. Can't tell the difference between who macrod and who worked at it? Surprise! That is my point. This is nothing more than a fantasy, a perceived slight. This is not a problem with macroers, this is a problem for those who take it upon themselves to be offended by someone elses playing style.

Third, for all that AFK levelling, they get access to new content more quickly and easily than players who try hard, in whatever spare time they have. Being higher level, they can take on new higher level mobs with better loot sooner, finish higher level events and quests, and win bids on new or rare items in the marketplace, or otherwise be able to buy them when people who have put in alot more of both time and effort cannot.

You cannot seriously use this as an argument. Power gamers do the same thing, are you gonna be hacked at them too? See my comment to your second point.

Fourth, making money with AFK macroing ruins the economy for everyone, by driving up prices on rares and semi rares, effectively making the regular items that most people can sell have less value. This in turn means that to get decent items, the legit players have to spend even more time than before.

Is it just me, or is this getting repetative? Anyone can do this, regardless of macros. Some of the richest people in game did it the old fasioned way.

Fifth, using scripting or macroing tools, etc is against the EULA (paragraph 12, go take a look), and when some players are seen as repeatedly breaking the rules without being punished, it makes the rules less effective and encourages others to break the rules, either in the same way or in other ways (such as offensive behavior, for example). This negatively affects the atmosphere of the game for many players.

This does not show harm, it simply shows that doing it breaks rules that can only partially be enforced. Good macros can be very difficult to detect by players, and the WM's seem to think it isn't a big enough deal to actively seek them out. So you end up with a rule that is worth less than the time taken to read it. But hey, at least it is a valid argument of why you shouldn't macro, but there are plenty of those. Just no reasonable ones thus far that show a negetive impact to others.

Any of these happening can drive other people from playing, shrinking the community and the subscriptions. While I haven't seen much of a problem with people cheating via hacks and afk macroing/scripting in this game, I have played another game where it was much more rampant, and have seen all these effects firsthand.

Even AFK macroing on a smaller scale mostly only upsets some players, that in and of itself is negatively affecting others - and is against the EULA, so is a punishable offense. If it wasn't negatively affecting them, this thread wouldn't have come up in the first place.
- Grem

This thread came up because so many take it upon themselves to be offended by the playing style of other people. I call it the Martha Stewart Effect, because it sounds to me like a bunch of elitists looking down on someone because they happen to be wearing a coat that went out of style 5 minutes ago.

But at least in this one instance you have shown a negetive effect, albeit a grasping one. Things fall appart when a community made up of people who all feel others must play by their rules runs into enough players who do not. But this is a norm of society, and something I strongly feel is wrong with the world. If more people minded their own business rather than trying to force others to conform then things would be a lot nicer down here.

[Phillip]

I'm an elitist and ******** proud of it.

[Gremblthrg]

*chuckle*
I appreciate your willingness to play devil's advocate, Theolaerynn, but the crux of your arguments has been that many people are offended by these rule-breaking behaviors, and it is their fault for being offended. Methinks that's a slightly backwards approach, blaming those who are offended as opposed to those who are offending...

I agree with the OP, and have given my reasons in support of why in my previous post.

[Sharduk]

Aamer , you have asked a few times in this thread for an example of the water removal exploit giving an advantage. Here it is :

I have personally watched a player camp in the " invisible " water in a spot they 1. could not have gotten to without using the exploit, and 2. could not have held the camp had they been forced to stay on the beach. Said pc was pulling T V comp mobs indiscrimitily with out the associated danger that non exploiters would have to deal with.

Sharduk

[Theolaerynn]

*chuckle*
I appreciate your willingness to play devil's advocate, Theolaerynn, but the crux of your arguments has been that many people are offended by these rule-breaking behaviors, and it is their fault for being offended. Methinks that's a slightly backwards approach, blaming those who are offended as opposed to those who are offending...

I agree with the OP, and have given my reasons in support of why in my previous post.

It isn't Devil's Advocate, oddly, but a strong belief in individual freedom. And a belief that one should not make rules that cannot (or in this case, will not) be enforced.

If someone said that they are hacked at the macroers because they are breaking a rule, I could respect that. But it is hacking folks off because the macroer isn't participating in the race to whatever goal the 'victim' thinks should be important to everyone who plays.

One last thought on this, before I let it be. How many folks do you think would be outraged if I said I macroed all my adventure and craft levels? I bet a lot, if they thought I was telling the truth. It wouldn't mater if I was telling the truth either, just that they thought it would be enough to take on some perceived injury. Does that sound like rational thought to you? It doesn't to me.

Concerning the OP: As all who know me are well aware, I have known of many exploits but never used any one of them. Not because I think it is wrong, but because I do not think it is fun. Like Aamer said, it is self-regulating. The folks doing it either leave or finish leveling, it is a finite thing.

[Magnir]

I'm going to vilify myself here and now. I was one of the "water walking" 'exploiters', and to this day I'm still infuriated that this is considered an exploit. We did not walk on water. We walked out, we died. A healer rezzed us. We walked further before we drowned again. It got us to the island (Lerena) for the cost of a few death points. There were "water walking" exploits around then - things you could do to avoid drowning, that had been around since beta. And I reported them. In Beta. We didn't use those obvious "the game is broken" methods. What we used seemed to make sense to me, and still does. For those who weren't around then, that's why you are auto-teleported back home when you drown. Didn't used to be that way.

I don't care whether the developers "meant" for us to build the dang bridge first (Which, by the way, one of the two punished guilds built the majority of after this incident), I still see it as using the game mechanics on hand, that, for all we know, were supposed to work that way. There were two ways to get to that island and we opted for the clever, quicker way. Hell, we even asked a developer before doing it whether we were allowed to use that mechanic. He said yes. Only when the game world was in uproar did the devs reverse their stance to "Well, you're not allowed to use it to do that."

I guess I'm still very angry about the way the community and developers treated that one. Not that the developers didn't have the right to, just their handling of it. I'll tell you who it affected. Those of us who were punished and had our world "readjusted". Flame away, I'm sure there are dissenters.

To tie it back to the thread, opinions will vary, and tempers can flare.

I was there on Dawn, too when all of that went down. I don't know if you knew that you were exploiting, but the one who organized it sure did.

And it wasn't about building the bridge, it's that you used that exploit to get the plots there for yourselves before anyone who legitmately made it across could cross the bridge to buy them.

If you were meant to be able to cross that water we would be able to swim.

[Foxfire]

I was there on Dawn, too when all of that went down. I don't know if you knew that you were exploiting, but the one who organized it sure did.

And it wasn't about building the bridge, it's that you used that exploit to get the plots there for yourselves before anyone who legitmately made it across could cross the bridge to buy them.

If you were meant to be able to cross that water we would be able to swim.

This is what INFURIATES me.

First off, I was on Shadow, not Dawn. I was a guild officer (later GM), I helped organize it. I told the folks we'd figured out a clever way to get to Lerena and that I thought it was a legitimate way to get there, as far as I was concerned.

Of course we wanted the plots for ourselves, and whoever got their first got the plots. What's your point? Is it bad or something to want to get there first? Sour grapes.

If you were meant to be able to cross that water we would be able to swim.

And I'm supposed to know this how? If I had discovered a way across because the devs *mistakenly* left a shallow place that someone discovered, even though they *meant* for us to build the bridge first, you'd call that player an exploiter too, I suppose. If you'll recall, there was a spot in the river you had to cross (breath remaining dropped to less than1/4, if I remember correctly) just off the swamp to get to where the Lerena bridge was - and there was a bridge nearby waiting to be built. Noone bothered building that bridge first, it didn't get completed until ages after the Lerena settlement. I find your argument absurd.

[Justa Mirage]

I think what Foxfire is trying to say... relates to what happened to me and the "Buildings to Novians plot land rush" incident with Sanctuary Bay:

I was told by the player that did it in a private /tell:

"If our guild didn't buy the plot and remove the buildings, then someone else's guild would have..." (a direct quote I will never forget)

I do not deal with this player anymore... as I had plans on purchasing my neighboring plot with a vaultkeeper and tier1 guild house on it... and moving my woodshop over to it. (the way things SHOULD have happened before the land rapers came before I could get home from work on patch day.)

Foxfire is correct in saying "We did it because if we didn't use the "method" that dawn used (now it is termed an exploit, as the devs go OMG we didn't think players would be so resourceful and figure a way to get there without a bridge... NERF NERF FIX FIX NERF BAN BAN BAN) so in a way... they were using a method that was proven by another server to work, was successful at doing it... and the "you snooze you lose" guilds and players raised holy hell with the devs and WMs about it that the "disabling rez undewater" fix went into place and all of the plots were disabled for purchase on the island, and bans went into effect to guilds / players that utilized the "now called" exploit

Once the "method" for getting to an island without a bridge leaked out... it was a race to see which guild could corner the Lerena plot market with an entire guild.

[MadDwarf]

lol is that how it was all done ?

Thats not an exploit at all. I was led to believe as were many others that these people found a way to walk underwater with no reprecussions. Thats how it was presented to the rest of the community to us little people at least.

I say walking and dieing and then being rezzed was a bloody brilliant way of doing it. Was it an exploit ? Borderline perhaps but in this case that was just smart player thinking. Its also something the devs should have caught if they didn't want people doing this.

But as to the topic ? I do not see the point of playing a game if you are going to exploit game mechanics. Now I have my ideas of what is an exploit and what is not an exploit as exampled above. But for example whats the point in afk macro'ing ?? especially if you are going to just level up ?? Item exploits as well I can never figure out either. Whats the point if you do that it cheapens the game when you get something legit wise.

But I think you will never find a 100 percent consensus on this issue.

[Rocinante]

I say if its not breaking the EULA, then just do it. Don't tell anyone about your secret, just do it. Expolit all you can, while you can.

I say all the arguements against some one exploiting is rubbish.

Rocinante

[Jaraiden]

To me an exploit is grossly abusing a game mechanic to give the player, or group, an obviously unfair advantage. It is also contrary to the intent of the developers or "logic" of the game (as in contrary to its "reality"). Yeah, a bit of subjectiveness in that, so here are some past examples I remember:

* Building hoard with xGenerate Health spell
* Selling items to the player made blacksmith
* Flying cargo discs in mid 2005
* Perching (dragon on a tree, leaching xp w/o harm) . . . opps, wait, can still do that
* Purple necroflies (obviously underpowered)

That water thing above - where a group can "hide" in water from monsters - is certainly an exploit.

A current one is using consigners as storage (for a negligible fee) - make them deny all and, by definition, they are not consigners. Alas this has been debated back and forth by the players. And allowed by the, then, complacent developers at TulgAE.

As for the guild that got to Lorena while bypassing the intent of finishing the bridge? At first I thought that was smart thinking. WRONG! It is an exploit. When a character drowns they have no air left. A character resurrected underwater would have water filled lungs = instant death. Thus a game mechanic was abused - how can you have "Remaining air" when there was no air to begin with?

So, is the real message, "Whatever the game mechanics allow me to do"? I guess so. It is rather easy to blame poor design and designers with other priorities rather than players trying to find the easy way out.

Or is the real message, "Let me have fun, it is not affecting others"? However it does, game economics from combine farming those purple necroflies. Or the players that exploited their way to PL to 100th and then moan about lack of content. I don't care of you exploit your way to 100th . . . it just means you'll get bored and leave, unless you moan (and then it affects others). We'll put aside a mutual desire for game integrity and reputation (players and developers).

However, I plan to make a Deny all Consigner, for storage purposes. The intent of the developers, right? A bug that is now a feature. I need to move stuff out of my overstuffed vault (that Nov. 2004 Nova thing).

[Sigi]

A character resurrected underwater would have water filled lungs = instant death. Thus a game mechanic was abused - how can you have "Remaining air" when there was no air to begin with?

Ever heard of the "breath of life"? I mean please don't try to condemn this with logic otherwise you'd rule out the whole resurrection part of the game.

Or the players that exploited their way to PL to 100th and then moan about lack of content. I don't care of you exploit your way to 100th . . . it just means you'll get bored and leave, unless you moan (and then it affects others).

A good reason to just ignore the moaners.

[Casyle]

OO, the biggest and most damaging exploit that I've seen, in my opinion, has to be when the old Shamblers were bugged. *They've been re-named. They're the fat, baby-looking creatures*

The problem? They had practically 0 accuracy. A level 25 - 30 dragons could kill a level 50 shambler!

I remember very early on in HZ when I was basically in a dead heat with another dragon I won't name in the race to 100. In one night he somehow gained over 20 levels on me. A couple bi-ped warriors also mysteriously rocketed up in levels in just a day. I quickly found out why all this was happening when I had to go into the blight to do a quest and saw my ex-friend and a couple others slaughtering harmless level 50'ish Shamblers.

THAT, in my opinion, is an exploit. What Foxfire's guild did was a very intelligent use of abilities in my opinion, thought it's probably at the very least a border-line exploit. . Unfortunately, in that situation it wasn't just a rush to be the first to hunt on that island, but something a lot of people were eagerly awaiting, plots.

That's my worthless 2 cents.

[CallakDW]

There was once also what you might call an exploit with dragon hoard and the xGenerate spell that was never intended to be in game. Once apon a time it gave 999 hoard per spell. A guildee noticed this, and instead of reporting it, we increased our hoards majorly. This is the only exploit I ever participated in, however we gaine nothing from it bacause when the devs found out about it, they docked us all hoard points. At first they even took more hoard away than we originally had before we started, untill someone made a big stink, and they restored it.