To those that think the worried are troll.

[Deth]

I just wanted to pst this here as I did not want to hijack another thread any more then then it already was.

Every where I see the Wait and see and Your just trolling if you speak up with the least bit worried. Or lately if your not having fun leave. Well myself I am paid up till Jan so if I just leave because I am not having fun I I loose out on a 1/3 of my investest ment. So no I am not just going to leave. Just like any other game I have every right to raise concerns that I feel are important to me just like any other paying customer, more so as I am locked in as said costomer unlike some others that are paying on a monthly bases. I am not here to bring the game down and I want to see the game go one and grow but if some of the worry and issues seen here and a lot more so on other boards then the game can not grow. First impresstion are a very hard thing to over come and not to be mean or anything EI is earning it's self a bad rep. I am sorry if that seems negative but that is how it looks from the boards I follow and that can not help the game nor the compony.

I understand that things are going to take time, but thier are issues that they need to fix. Having every one come down on those that are worried on one board is not going to do any thing but hide the issue from a few, foster bad blood between the community of the game and just cause the worrys to be brought up again and again and again as those that are worried feel that they are being unjustly ignored or suppressed.

[Kulamata]

We're all worried; we simply don't know yet how things will turn out.

But a kajillion posts (to be technical about it) saying the same thing ova anda ova anda ova again will bring about a reaction. Especially when stating, restating, and overstating the obvious.

EI's community relations have smoothed out somewhat now, and I don't expect to see any more over-reactions like closing the forums. And if EI has not heard yet, they never will; but I suspect they have.

EI said that the state of the game is being studied; what they decide to do will depend heavily on the results of that study. So until then...

[Chioxin]

[This became a long post, my apologies]

To head this long thing off, I'm stating my thoughts and I'm really honestly not pointing at anyone. I tried to make this as objective as possible. If you feel you are being pointed at then my appologies. I'm merely defining what a "Troll" is and a "concerned player" is. That, and that this is a game and nothing to lose sleep over.

How I determine "Troll" from "Concerned" posters...

Trolls are there to stir the pot and cause trouble. They never if RARELY have anything good to say EVER. They will act in one of two ways, either through a short jab in the side comment that is negative in all aspects, or through a long winded post about how something is so stupid and far fetched it will never succeed, work, or is ... stupid. Their tactic is usually to knock a post out of wack and turn it into a flame war rather than the topic it was created for in the first place. Often they can't say one good thing, because they don't want to and that's not their purpose in being here. They have time to burn for some reason and they feel it's well spent grabbing the flame pack and letting forum fires roast. If you ASK them to point out one thing they like as well as the bad things they see, they will usually come up with some overly sarcastic way of saying they like something then immediately slam that thing they like with a negative, and it's in a condescending joke like manner.

Concerned posters are those who worry and they post threads and comments that both show they are quite concerned with what is to come and point out their concerns in constructive ways that do not actually comment on how horrible another is. They usually offer what they can as insight to the problem and then comment on their observations. Their comments are well thought out and rational. They tend to stick to the topics Main Point and enhance it and the threads content with their feedback. I'd say Fridlehk [sorry for mispellng it if i did,] and Steel Claw would be very concerned poster and very constructive poster whom I value their opinions due to how present the issues.

There's also something to be said about "Constructive Critique"

I've already heard trolls claiming they are "constructively critiqueing" EII, and I've been told that they must do so as there needs to be a counter point. I personally understand there must be counter points but I call Bull on a few who claim they are constructively critiqueing. I've been through a slew of art courses and a slew of creative writing courses to know what is "constructive" and what is just "slamming."

Constructive Example
"Your story was pretty good and I liked the main character. He needs a little work by adding a bit of dialogue for him to really fleshen him out. I loved the way you played on his bully side a bit, the way you presented his mind set really brought that out, but you might have over done it by having two scenes where he steals a boys lunch money. Either make one scene different to prove Johny is learning how to hide his lunch money better or... Remove a scene. I think by doing so you will hold the readers attention a bit better and they won't feel as though they are re-reading the same thing."

Slamming Example
"Your writing is very poor and why you even decided to write this story in the first place is flawed. You dont' have a strong character design and frankly the fact the bully is a thin prick is a really poor choice. Only a moron would consider such an odd twist. You really need to either put down the pencil because you don't have any writing skills or just pick up a new hobby. This one obviously isn't for you, you're inadequate to even think up a proper plot."

DISCLAIMER::The above EXAMPLES are just that, EXAMPLES and they mean nothing more or nothing less than to serve the purpose of explaining my point.

Now, with that being said, the one being constructive must understand that they may not get their answer. That there may be an unknown that prevents the answer from being told. You have to accept this, that's part of the game. Business relations and personal things... Things that really aren't for public knowledge... Just might not be available for public knowledge.

If you are truely upset, and you don't pay to play anymore, and have given up hope entirely... Then put down your concerns and post them in a WELL spoken manner like I've seen Steel Claw do, send them VIA PM and VIA E-Mail if you're that concerned, and then sign off for good. You must put it behind you at that point as you've done EVERYTHING you could. Don't be peeved if others are playing strong and still enjoying the game you now don't enjoy. Take a break, you've said your piece and if others feel the same they will follow the same path. Come back and check in to see if maybe the game has taken a different direction in a few months. I know, people are going to say "Well we can't get on the forums if we don't have an account." Well... You have FRIENDS right, and you can log into IRC right? You do have contacts in game, right? Perhaps they aren't leaving? There are those of us who will probably stay for a while. Get their E-mail and hang onto it so you can ask them how things are going every now and then.

When it gets down to it...

You can either look at the glass half full, or you can look at it half empty. I chose to see it half full and hope that it fills up a little more as time progresses. I don't see the game as Peachy Awesome Hunky Dorry let's go paint Dryad Rainbows all over the Istaria forums [and I haven't seen it as such for 2.5 years] but I don't see it as going down the drain either and we should all be digging bomb shelters and hiding in them spouting off useless negative hate filled comments. Why should I bother bashing down the doors and blaring out the negativity, that's damned STRESSFUL and to much work... It's not worth it.... FURTHER MORE this is a freaking VIDEO GAME! If you're losing sleep over this, heh, you honestly need to sit yourself down and grab a piece of paper and write out your priorities. I know it sucks to think of it that way and there are those of us who HAVE dumped out life and soul into the game but you MUST MOVE ON... Make your point, constructively critique and do prod EII when it's appropriate and not a snipe. These things are welcome!!! That and give them proper time to react!

However, walking around with a permanent storm cloud over your head doesn't bode well either and is a great way to earn an ulcer or two. Doing so will also taint those around you who may be enjoying the game and not in a way you want, which is to get them to leave too. They proably find you annoying and try to avoid you at all cost when once you were the beam of sunshine in their time in Istaria.

If someone is truely your friend, they will find ways to get a hold of you out side of a game. Don't let a game be the only way you communicate with someone you consider a friend.

Just my thoughts, and 2 coppers.

[Kulamata]

Better check those coppers out, they have a bit of a glint...

[snickel]

Great post, Chioxin.

Many thanks.

[Kwinn]

Chioxin awesome job really it is. The constructive, concerned and open-minded salute you. The close-minded are probably trying to figure out what it all means

[Phillip]

Now that DB is out, I'm not so worried.

[MadDwarf]

Well said chioxin

but by your definition I challenge anyone to find a true trolling post made on this boards since horizons buy out. Cause I really haven't seen very many disrespecful posts made about the game and EII. Rather I have seen very obvious issues pointed out.

[AA0]

Trolls are there to stir the pot and cause trouble. They never if RARELY have anything good to say EVER. They will act in one of two ways, either through a short jab in the side comment that is negative in all aspects, or through a long winded post about how something is so stupid and far fetched it will never succeed, work, or is ... stupid. Their tactic is usually to knock a post out of wack and turn it into a flame war rather than the topic it was created for in the first place.

Well MadDwarf, the post above you seems to fit perfectly.

[MadDwarf]

Well MadDwarf, the post above you seems to fit perfectly.

Not according to his definition

Slamming Example
"Your writing is very poor and why you even decided to write this story in the first place is flawed. You dont' have a strong character design and frankly the fact the bully is a thin prick is a really poor choice. Only a moron would consider such an odd twist. You really need to either put down the pencil because you don't have any writing skills or just pick up a new hobby. This one obviously isn't for you, you're inadequate to even think up a proper plot."

I was commenting that I really haven't seen this. But I should amend I haven't seen to much of it.

But if you want to find out why this happens I will quote the following two facts for you all to consider

December 8th 2006 is Horizons 3rd anniversary. Yup thats 3 years... is the game in good shape ?

3 companies 1 bankruptcy and 1 forced sell later. Why has this happened ? Surely it can't be because of the trolls....

If you do not learn from history you are doomed to repeat it. This is an undeniable fact of life.

Your point again was what ?

[Deth]

Chioxin I agree good post and well thought out. I think my main point is that those that are "happy" are either to tired of all the troll and slam anyone that bring up the slightest problem or just to afraid to let a problem be posted about because it will mean the down fall of the game.

I feel This is a place issues should be allowed to brought up and be seen. If EI feels they are to negative go in and mod the post down to a more safe level but leave the basics of the problem there for all to see, with a Mod not of "Modded to a more respectful level." or what ever is needed. This is the main feedback boards, I know that only a small part use boards and such but it is still a viable litmus test for how the community in GENERAL feels.

I think my main point is I would like to see more of a balance of views allowed on the boards. I feel that there are problems out there that are not wanted to be seen and there for they are suppressing them in hopes that they can be made to go away and I feel it is wrong to suppress those problems.

But that is just my 2 coppers and I try to keep it as middle of the road as I can but just like any other human I serve from one side of the road to the other from time to time.

[Garfonso]

Maybe some people are tired of discussing the same issues all over again and again?

[Dremora]

I think alot of the "trolling" comes from frustration of not seeing any real progress..

[Chioxin]

Deth::
I'd like to agree with you and I've seen it happening too; I've seen it happening on both sides and it makes me a bit sad to be seeing it. I think it's because the trolling has become so bad that those of us trying to hold an optomistic point of view [me included I know I've stepped the line now and then and I'll be the first to admit it,] are just getting tired of the cheap shots some people make. We're getting tired of even coming to the boards because of such.

Forums to me are a horrible medium, as I tend to view it like a wheel and it keeps spinning round and round and round for those of us who visit it on a daily basis. An example would be that I'd have to repost this about once a month for people to see it as in a month, as it will be lost somewhere and ... trolls will abound... and your concern above will be stated by someone new. Round and round we go =(

AAO::
I think you know who I speak of, there are several. I don't wish to name names to tell you the truth because that would be ... in my opinion ... Trolling. It would be looking to call people out and make them react, something I'm not going to do. Now listen AAO... I wouldn't point out just the negative people either, there are those on my side of the fence who have commited the same offense I speak of above.

Please read the post again, I think you'll see I wasn't stirring the pot but I was thoughtfully writing out the difference between the two types of posters. I even pointed out thoughtful folks who are on your side of the fence who I listen to and enjoy hearing their side of it because it's stated in a way that doesn't belittle anyone. If you didn't notice that, read again, it's there.

MadDwarf::
I think a portion of my comments to AAO also answer your challenge, but like I said I don't want to point out names as it would just be taking a flame thrower to the issue.

Secondly... You're right, HZ isn't a game in good shape and I don't believe it to be, and I don't believe it really has ever been. I don't believe it's going anywhere right now and it has some major issues that EI needs to fix, a few issues that EI caused as well [billing] need fixing faster. All I can do right now is believe they will fix it and hope they current owners will do such as I've been doing for the past 2.5 years. I'll be honest, does it matter to me that much if they fix the game I love or not? Yes it matters, but if it fails then so be it and life goes on, it was just a game.

Yes, I understand and know the whole history thing. They've stated they are trying not to repeat it. Anyway, that would be derailing the point of the thread. There are threads out there for this discussion.

My point... was lost wasn't it... My point was the difference between Trolls and Concerned Posters.

[AA0]

Chioxin, I wasn't referring to you at all.

[Rhyssa]

Well MadDwarf, the post above you seems to fit perfectly.

Not according to his definition

MadDwarf, I think you missed the word "above" in AAO's post - it wasn't aimed at you. The specific part of Chioxin's post that AAO was referring to in this case was "They will act in one of two ways, either through a short jab in the side comment that is negative in all aspects....."

Well written post Chioxin

[Jayne]

No it was the jab mentioning DB. Yes it wasn't said to totally slam but it is a comment that needs not be said and if not there would be no flair ups. And no I am not bothered by it, but i can see many that would be.

The sad thing is so many are just....well you call them fanbois. If tomorrow we got a notice saying DB bought the game back their would be those ready to jump back over the fence, lol. Quite humorous in my opinion.

Anyway the truth is some people have concerns and there asking the questions. And there are no dumb questions just dumb answers. And if some get upset because these folks are asking those questions repeatedly, then they should get just as upset to see someone say over and over in every post that there having fun and willing to wait and will give them all the time you need.

Niether circumstance really changes anything in the posts at this point. Its just the same reinforcement over and over. But to all whom don't like it, get used to it, we're all human and I don't see either case stopping.

In the mean time I will go in and have fun and play my game. I will also ask the questions that need be asked.

Jayne

[Chioxin]

Ah, then my appologies AAO, and I agree with you to on the example *winks*

[Nagafen]

This transition has been a rocky one, to say the least, and we've made our share of mistakes. However, not all of the problems were our doing. There were circumstances that greatly complicated the cross-over that were beyond our control. It would be unfair for us to chastise you for not having blind faith in us. It is equally unfair, however, for you to assume that we're the only reason that something has gone wrong.

We encourage you to voice your concerns to us. Feedback is essential to measuring our progress. We realize that we've not been as communicative as Tulga was and we're working towards finding a happy medium between their communication style and ours. We will not be discussing the inner workings of the company nearly as much as Tulga did. This is not meant to be a form of deception or disrespect. It is simply an effort, on our part, to keep things running quickly and efficiently.

I, personally, agree with the sentiment of Chioxin's post. I think that constructive criticism is an important and vital part of these forums. However, I think that passive aggressive attacks and mean-spirited jabs only do harm to this community. I think that it's important that we communicate our disagreements in a way that not only articulates our points of view, but also works towards a solution.

[MadDwarf]

ahh Nagafen it is not easy being in the trenches of customer relations is it ?

the transition has been a rocky one. One in which ya'll probably could have avoided but thats water under the troll bridge so to speak . Now you guys have a hard road ahead of ya to establish some client confidence in your company and product.

it can be done. I'm sure you guys will figure it out.