To those that think the worried are troll.

[LaughingOtter]

I think that it's important that we communicate our disagreements in a way that not only articulates our points of view, but also works towards a solution.

That's an excellent position to take when the issue at hand is a disagreement as to a given game feature being good or bad, but it does not work when the issue is a matter of objective fact.

For example: it is a fact that EI is still having issues with the Horizons billing system. A person who has been charged incorrectly has a right to be angry and to express that anger. Handled properly, openly, and with all due courtesy and speed, such posts can be turned into examples of good customer service which will actually improve EI's image and reputation. Deleting such posts, even if the issue is solved immediatly, only damages EI's image because the service recovery portion is never seen.

As consumers, we all have the right to a reasonable expectation of reliability from our service providers. The billing system is a critical componant of the game and billing issues are very visible to potential new subscribers. I can think of no reason that EI (or any other company) would be trying to REDUCE subscriber numbers; nor is it in the best interests of the game or the company to do so.

There is no constructive suggestion that can be offered by the player base, as this issue can only be resolved by EI on the corporate level. However, it impacts every player directly and is a matter of legitimate concern. Asking for an update on the issue is not trolling or attacking; "why can't you (insert derogatory phrase here) fix this?" is.

Communities such as this one are fluid, and as with any fluid, if you try to hold on to it with a fist, it will slip through your fingers and leave you with nothing. If you want to hold it, your hands must be open.

[Nagafen]

That's an excellent position to take when the issue at hand is a disagreement as to a given game feature being good or bad, but it does not work when the issue is a matter of objective fact.

For example: it is a fact that EI is still having issues with the Horizons billing system. A person who has been charged incorrectly has a right to be angry and to express that anger. Handled properly, openly, and with all due courtesy and speed, such posts can be turned into examples of good customer service which will actually improve EI's image and reputation. Deleting such posts, even if the issue is solved immediatly, only damages EI's image because the service recovery portion is never seen.

As consumers, we all have the right to a reasonable expectation of reliability from our service providers. The billing system is a critical componant of the game and billing issues are very visible to potential new subscribers. I can think of no reason that EI (or any other company) would be trying to REDUCE subscriber numbers; nor is it in the best interests of the game or the company to do so.

There is no constructive suggestion that can be offered by the player base, as this issue can only be resolved by EI on the corporate level. However, it impacts every player directly and is a matter of legitimate concern. Asking for an update on the issue is not trolling or attacking; "why can't you (insert derogatory phrase here) fix this?" is.

Communities such as this one are fluid, and as with any fluid, if you try to hold on to it with a fist, it will slip through your fingers and leave you with nothing. If you want to hold it, your hands must be open.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Billing is a matter of legitimate concern and attacking EI about the issue does not expidite a resolution. Repairs to the billing system are our top priority and we're continuing to work towards effective and long-term solutions to the problems at hand.

I must say that I am encouraged by reasonable discussions, like the one happening in this thread. I believe that the Horizons community benefits most from calm rational discourse. Thank you for your response LO, and thank you for your helpful criticism, in this and other forums.

[Frith-Rae]

The Billing Issue is my main number one concern right now. My three month payment is up Oct. 19th, and quite frankly if they aren't worked out by then I will not be renewing.

Not because I hate EI, or I don't have faith that the game may be going somewhere, or that I am not having fun or love this community. But because I simply refuse to give my confidential credit information to a system in flux and borked. Oct. 19th will literally be three months, as amazingly enough my account renewed like three days before the sale. If billing is borked for three months..well that's just *not good*.

Anyway the truth is some people have concerns and there asking the questions. And there are no dumb questions just dumb answers. And if some get upset because these folks are asking those questions repeatedly, then they should get just as upset to see someone say over and over in every post that there having fun and willing to wait and will give them all the time you need.

Amen 100% - to me both are "trolling", one may be a negative troller, but the other is a positive troller. Greeting substantial and valid questions with "don't worry just go play and give them time" is NOT a response, its a trolling response. It adds nothing but anger and bitterness than the original person is feeling ignored and "fanboi" beaten so to speak.

I am playing, I am having at least a little bit of fun (wee...lairs..lol), and there are at least one or two friends left that I enjoy logging in to see. But am I worried about the future of the game? YES. Do I lose sleep over it? No Do I dred Oct. 19th because I'm afraid that the billing issue wont' be fixed? Absolutely I do.

And telling me to "STFU quit whining and go play" doesn't solve that, it makes it a bigger issue.

So please, don't read the names of those who post, dont prejudge based on a forum heading. I just want more people to READ the concerns of posters, even if they aren't said in the "perfect" or "correct" way, read into the true meaning of those postings their concerns and worries and maybe we can all come to a great understanding - a give and take.

Because obviously if they truly didn't care, they wouldn't post - on both sides.

[Peaches]

Amen 100% - to me both are "trolling", one may be a negative troller, but the other is a positive troller. Greeting substantial and valid questions with "don't worry just go play and give them time" is NOT a response, its a trolling response. It adds nothing but anger and bitterness than the original person is feeling ignored and "fanboi" beaten so to speak.


I am really sorry that you see my statement as a troll. I guess the only thing I can say, is when we are under stress, we all react differently. My way of dealing with stress, is simply logging into the game. I do my utmost best to not worry over things that I simply do not have control over. I understand how this is impacting the players , that are having problems. But, in all honesty, there is nothing I can do. My statement is never meant to belittle anyone, but just stating that this is how I handle my stress on my end. I apologize for not communicating that as well.

[Jodokai]

...or through a long winded post about how something is so stupid and far fetched it will never succeed, work, or is ... stupid. Their tactic is usually to knock a post out of wack and turn it into a flame war rather than the topic it was created for in the first place...

Yikes why does this statement remind me of pretty much every post in the "In Game Advocate" thread?

[Phillip]

Whatever it is I don't see bringing the exact same issue on the boards daily knowing very well that EI already admit to its existance and working to solve it. I also don't see the mass assumptions, accusations & predictions as helping.

[MadDwarf]

Whatever it is I don't see bringing the exact same issue on the boards daily knowing very well that EI already admit to its existance and working to solve it. I also don't see the mass assumptions, accusations & predictions as helping.

ahhh but isn't this situation the same situation as under Tulga ? A developer people aren't sure about and a situation that isn't healthy ?

People will talk about anything it seems huh ?

Nagafen I suggest you tally the feedback from the first and 2nd thread. Thats all you really need anyway since everything that can be asked has been asked. Post a synopsis of all the questions and your answers. Make it a sticky and lock it.

[Screech]

In response to the billing...

My accounts renewed just fine.
A friend of mine who mistakenly got charged was reimbursed without any trouble.

That - to me - looks like things are heading in the right direction as like EII is addressing the problem every which way they can.
I appreciate that, hence I thought I'll mention it here, since it was all smooth and no hassle for me.
Obviously some people still have problems, and I realize that I might have just been lucky, but it seems that EII is determined to fix things that are not working, and they seem to try to stay away from making promises they can't keep.
I prefer them not making a promise, to being lied to.

There were many people who were screaming at the top of their lungs when the buyout happened. Most of it was due to the surprise it gave us all and most of it can be put down to people having a knee-jerk reaction to not knowing what's going to happen.
Some of EII's knee-jerk reactions can likely be put down the the rude surprise they had at the reaction of the players to the news. It couldn't have been easy.
In fact, I'd wager it was harder on them than it was on us. Players just ranted - EII actually needed to run a business, learn a new product, fix issues that were beyond their control, and deal with irate players at the same time - without alienating even more of them.
Constructive criticism was rare. Most of what I saw were downright rude posts, worried posts, puzzled posts and very few "Hey, they're new. Give em a chance to get themselves sorted out."
Saying that, I sort of - to a small degree - see where Nagafen is coming from when he says not all of it was their doing. That's true. Part of the strife was caused by the players themselves, though mostly not intentionally I'd bet.
It takes two to tango.
Neither side is completely blameless, but I'd say put all of it behind us, and build on what we have. And that too goes for both sides.

[vahrokh_the_ancient]

Now that DB is out, I'm not so worried.

Me too, he had a role in keeping the game "somehow afloat" despite how rotten the foundations by DA were made.

We reached the bottom, hopefully, so it should just go better from now on, with a "regular" company (and not a Chapter 11 prevention ethernally in emergency team) which probably care for income.

It's probably even better, as DB could see the game as "creature" to keep afloat at all costs, while the new owners see it as "business" and so they will make all the efforts needed to make it profitable (which implies improvement).

[Phillip]

ahhh but isn't this situation the same situation as under Tulga ? A developer people aren't sure about and a situation that isn't healthy ?

People will talk about anything it seems huh ?

Nagafen I suggest you tally the feedback from the first and 2nd thread. Thats all you really need anyway since everything that can be asked has been asked. Post a synopsis of all the questions and your answers. Make it a sticky and lock it.

How's this: Da Bogus isn't handling this situation.

[MadDwarf]

How's this: Da Bogus isn't handling this situation.

*deleted personal insult*

As far as Bowman and Tulga being the problem. Maybe at one time Bowman was the problem. But Horizons was screwed from the moment it was released without another year of testing and another couple million dollars of development.

Now EII walks into this mess ill prepared and no where even close to ready. This is not an easy task and improvements take money a lot of money. In a market that is tough as nails and ripe with competition. If they can pull it off EII will be miracle workers that we all should bow down before.

be that as it may I believe they can make this game enjoyable and worth while to a small number. But its days of a large playerbase are long gone.

[Frith-Rae]

I am really sorry that you see my statement as a troll. I guess the only thing I can say, is when we are under stress, we all react differently. My way of dealing with stress, is simply logging into the game. I do my utmost best to not worry over things that I simply do not have control over. I understand how this is impacting the players , that are having problems. But, in all honesty, there is nothing I can do. My statement is never meant to belittle anyone, but just stating that this is how I handle my stress on my end. I apologize for not communicating that as well.

Please understand Peaches, I used that example because it was teh most recent one I read - and you used it at least twice in one post after another - and I felt it was equally as "unhelpful" as anything a 'negative' troller would post.

I did not mean to imply I feel you're a troller. Cuz I don't.

But I feel that one time or another, we've all probably been frustrated, bitter, tired, whatever, and made a response that was less than helpful .

My main point I wanted to get across is it is equally NOT as helpful or effective to make a response that makes it *appear* like you feel the person with a concern is just being stupid, or negative, or silly, or beyond help, or a troller, or whatever.

Its called "validation" in the shrink world.

Everyone with a concern wants to feel validated, feel like they were heard, that at least someone said "you know what, that is a problem - that sucks - omg I hate that too - that's a legitimate complaint - we're working on it - here's our plan - blahblahblah". And "positive" trolling invalidates concerns. It says "whatever, go play" like you're being dismissive of the concern.

And then to see repeated *valid* concerns (I'm not saying ones just ranting, those need to go to the RANT Forum which we need to have back), answered with the same dismissive air by a group of players. And then the other group of players who have also felt dismissed, regardless of their concerns, jumps on the bandwagon - and thus the thread just falls apart.

When it could have led to serious, constructive, and productive conversation instead.

Its all our responsibilities, on all sides of the equation .

And even rants, said in the worst possible way, have points. Even what some may consider "fanboi happy butterflys and farting rainbow" posts, have points. And we should be working to pull out the true points and going into a discussion about them. Instead of the medium in which the point was made.

Passion is great. Anger is great. Good feelings are great. Its all in how you express them across to others that effects their reactions towards you - and results in whatever it is you're wanting to get across.

Ok, I guess that's enough rambling..I hope the point was clear lol.

[Peaches]

exactly how helpful is it to browbeat a dead horse? Its been said over and over and over and over and over. What more can be said when its an issue that cannot be resolved now?

[Jayne]

Actually I believe that was my comment you quoted Frith

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

I just want to know what I could possibly add to my diet so that I may fart rainbows.

Seriously tho, what Frith just posted is a good explanation of why not to slam shut the community voice on the boards. There's enough heavy handed, tow-the-line-or-else-moderation in real life America atm. I know these boards are private - but sometimes I think I'm going to see: "You're either with us or a TROLL" comming out of some of our posters' mouths the last few months.

As for the, "just go play and be happy" responses...well, as I said in a convo with Danu:

I'm not sure how long EI has followed Horizons or how much of it's history they know, but the issue for me is patience. Hz development can be summed up as follows:

1. First a buggy release and faulty client with missing content for specific races/classes (this being dragons for the most part) - then we went through about 6 months of client stabilization just so the game would run well for most players (those that stuck it out) - this was being done by a game company that had little experience running a mainstream MMO (deja vu) and it ended up hurting the playerbase almost to the point of game destruction.

2. Then we had 3 months of shard merger development which changed a lot of things and removed some things as well.

3. Then we had 1+ years of dragon development (which was needed) - dragons deserved to have a complete and FUN game to play, this was done with minor client tweaks. However, bipeds had to wait - no new quests and many taken away, no new things to build, no racial buildings (dragons got lairs - which are awesome), and no biped class development (dragons got a ton of class changes and tweaks).

4. THEN, we had 4-6 months of new player game development with revamps to starter areas, quests, etc combined with more client tweaks (which again, were needed).

5. Then the buyout happened, and to many vet players it feels like we have returned to # 1 in the above list.

I'm not saying this to rant or blame anyone - I'm trying to explain maybe "WHY" the community basically blew up some time back. EII has done some things wrong, but it's also picked up the baggage from the history of the game.

I told Danu, "I bet if you published this PM conversation to the public boards and then asked: Is this why many of you are hostile and upset atm? the answer would mostly be, YES." I still stand by that.

For me, I just want to know that further development or alteration of the client will take place with content which is NOT just events added to the game by live WM's/GM's; I want to know if there will be a new client or expansion; I want gardens and new buildings to add to my plot; I want changes to the class system and new experiences while adventuring (yes, this means dungeons along with other things). I want more stuff to make; more stuff to find; more dropped and quested loot to collect. I want a year or so devoted to biped classes and the biped races with content like quests, events, stories to shape.

In essence, I want to be rewarded for sticking it out with this game through some extremely rough and bleak times. I want all that money, support and community interaction to actually mean something rather than the "Return to the begining" that I feel now. I expect things to change, but I also expect the players' past commitment to matter.

So, telling me, "just go play, enjoy yourself!" is kinda shallow sounding to me right now. Amadan/EI are trying to resolve the fact that I have had 9 charges to my credit cards by EI in August and (so far) 6 in September. I'm being patient and understanding, but when I read, "Don't worry, be happy!" it kinda boils my blood let alone burns my wallet.

Just my two coppers on this - I hope EI smooths things out with the take over of Horizons - I love the game and would like my faith restored in it.

[Phillip]

Maybe some people just have the dire need to validate stuff over and again cuz they can't afford a shrink.

[Jayne]

OMG 18 charges in 60 days. I am sorry but if anyone thinks your being a troll then they are in denile. I am counting my lucky stars that wasnt me they charged.

Just for the record did you do any changes to accounts or any of EI's updates since TG? I have not done one thing since TG and luckily have had no problems with my billing. And I am currcntly being charged by EI. So I know one of us is doing ok.

Jayne

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

Revised my post - it was 9 charges in August and so far 5 in September - next week should see 4 more tho...

Also, its not 60 days - it's 14 charges since August 9th.

[Peaches]

to hear that your having a problem with billing. What would you have me do? THere is N O T H I N G I can do, does that mean, that I need to stop playing because you are having issues? Does that mean, that I can not say to others, when they browbeat the same thing over and over, just play the game? As I stated in another post, I only said that because it is how I handle stress. If that doesn't work for you, so be it, but it was, in no way , intended to belittle anyone, ever.

[Phillip]

Sorry to hear that Bulgrim. I hope it will be fixed soon enough.