Actually Danu's reply is excellent and should be a positive for both sides of the bashing fence.
Jayne
Actually Danu's reply is excellent and should be a positive for both sides of the bashing fence.
Jayne
Hummmm I was told Atari was where the pressure was. But it would seem to me that the decision would have been from the investors of the game, not DB. But I am just speculating based on whom sold the game and such. Not that it matters at this point.
Just be sure to include the reason Allen was chucked out. And remember that Horizons, despite several years of development, was vaporware at the time.Originally Posted by Tsarevna
Not that I am defending DB, I am not at all. The way I see it he is the only one that came out of this reletively well off. He owns the engine, the one bit of code that most folks agree actually works well, and the place where the majority of time was spent. Remember, Horizons was just a showcase to sell the real product, which was an extensible engine.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
- Albert Einstein
I can't believe I'm going to agree with Skatipuss (sp). He's right.
As my Horizons experience only extends back one year a lot of what has been discussed on this post is new to me and really interesting. I look forward to part 2 of the interview and what EI has to say about HZ and especially about its future direction.
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I definitivly disagree on the last sentence...
Maybe it was this way with HZ... Then HZ had to be a very special game for Atari or so...
I don't know, and at that point of time I don't care...
But it's definitivly NOT the usual way publishing deals are done....
The publisher has the power to release the game, even when the developer still says that it's not finished...
Last edited by Garfonso; September 21st, 2006 at 11:02 PM.
At least Garfonso knows. Take a look at many poor game releases, actually go troll the Atari forums and see how all their horrible games got released. You'll see the actual devs saying they couldn't help it, Atari forced their hand.
You see there are these contract thingies, you might have heard of them.. you sign them, then the publisher waits tlll their time, and your game isn't ready? well tough, you have a deadline, it is getting released, and you will have these features in the contract even if you have to BS them in.
It is marketing, simply.
Atari hasen't developed nor have they had any creative influence on any game since they last sold their console systems. In fact this isn't the same atari we all grew up with in the 80's. Atari has since became a publisher that used its name to develop and maintain distribution channels. They take on a game and get a cut of the profits from selling it and the atari name gets slapped on the box for brand recognition.
Atari had no say in the release of horizons nor in its creation. The investors the ones who invested millions into HZ were the ones pining for its release. Atari did not invest a single dime into Horizons.
My point is that people like to blame everyone but TulgaAE themselves for the games problems. Its not bowmans fault its not tulga's fault its all
1) ataris fault blah blah balh
2) the investors fault blah blah blah
3) the uncooperative creditors fault blah blah blah
Its always someone elses fault other than the people that designed and released it. Well thats not how it works in the real world.
yes if Atari was a vivendi or an Electronic Arts. But Atari is not like either of these publishers. Thats where the misconception lays. They printed the box burned the cd's and distributed the game. They had no financial investment in horizons like Vivendi does in WoW or its other games or EA in its various game franchises. How do I know this ?? They weren't listed as a creditor period when AE filed for Bankruptcy. One would think they would be on the creditor list as far as investors would they not ?? So yes I am very familar with how publishers and developers intermingle.
I don't know but as I said above I'm tired of the blame for Horizons production and release being shoveled onto everyone anyone else other than those that created it and maintained it. They could have still recovered just fine. Other games recovered fine from more disasterous releases and events than Horizons suffered through.
But once again I can't recall ever Bowman and Co. placing the blame at Ataris feet. This was cooked up somewhere to explain why Horizons didn't get the extra 6 months to a year of development time it needed. Besides Bowman took great pride in letting everyone know exactly that he was the big boss man and no one pushed him around.
*shrugs* I dunno but the time for blame is long gone.
You would think so, but when DB himself deigns to give an interview on the HZ sale it invites commentary from interested parties (i.e. HZ players).
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Just to clear something up. They released the game in such rough form because they were out of development money. The choice was to release like that or shut down without releasing anything at all. Without more money they could not delay the release.
Perhaps others would think that they should have shut down, or perhaps some people think that DB should have magically conjured up a couple million dollars so they could delay the relase and polish it up. I think both are pretty unrealistic.
And the reason they were out of development money with the game in such rough form was because DA squandered millions trying to pretend he could manage a major and COMPLICATED game development project. Too bad DA didn't have the management skill and game development experience to match his obvious (and only) ability which was sales.
DB definately made mistakes, but show me someone who doesn't make mistakes. The biggest mistakes I think he made were NOT the ones people are always touting.
The comment above about Atari demanding quests was interesting, as I just read a dev commenting that the quest system was added very late in development. That explains a lot.
____Kulamata Quality Armor___
None Genuine without this Pawprint `',''
Achiever 86%, Explorer 60%, Socializer 46%, Killer 6%.
Then don't sign the contract until you're sure you can meet it? I think you just countered the point didn't you? DB was still responsible as it was his signiture? He chose the investor too, the publisher?
Not that it matters now as that was WELL in the past and quite honestly seeing how development has gone so far I don't think we'd have had much more different now if he had that time...
What happened in the past happened. It's a crappy past, the game was drug through the mud by every owner [DA and DB] so far and it's continueing the trend as far as EII is concerned [Billing.] Hopefully things will work out, nobody knows. We're starting from square one... again... for the third time [More if you include beta and the 2 black outs?]
I think this horse has been flogged into a puddle of undescribable goop.
[edited::comment about how this thread came to be... I thought i was in one thread, when obviously I was in another... *Finds a big cup of cofee*]
lol well all seem to have spoken about the old dev's in game, Ophleae and Dotcher Danu,
question for current EI staff..
WHERE or WHEN can you ever bee online to support your players from ALL around the globe instead of just your local areas??
i live in Australia and i have NEVER seen ONE devo online sice, Ophleae, Dotcher left. not one..
how can this be explained??
I've not spent a lot of time reading every post in this thread or the article. So my comments are just thoughts in my own head.
Someone released a game that had great potential, regardless of who that someone was it happened. It wasn't ready for release but they released it and for the time I spent playing it, it was a lot of fun. Even with the buggyness.
The problem is they didn't get the subscribers they thought. I think they thought they would get Everquest type subscriber numbers and they didn't. At that point they lost money and money and more money. Then they had to cut resources which meant customer service and support went down and so did sub numbers. Then in a effort to save more money they consolidated shards, and to help stave off the exodus of subs made it a "quest" to kinda make it fun. And I thought that was kinda fun actually.
Then WOW was released and many flocked there. The Arop and all the other things like lairs and laircrafting and guild plots and what not, imo were not ready for release either but put out there as "good enough" in an attempt to keep what they had, and maybe generate more interest. If they could get enough people...well more money = more people to work on game, then they could maybe fix those after the fact. At least I think they were thinking that.
What you have left is what you see now. I thought abotu coming back but i'm scared away by billing issues and account managment issues. I think the game can still be good, and I think the idea is great! But the more time that passes the more people leave or don't come back (like me). And also the more time for newer games to come out, to steal attention away with newer better graphics engines, less lag and more support.
This is a tough market for smaller companys in my opinion. I would hope some day that everything about this game would be perfect and bug fixes would be minor. I don't see how anyone can do this, on the fly, while people still try to play the game. Too little resources spread too thin, take too much time and are too rushed to be put out to make subs happy.
Thats just my take, and you can take it or leave it. It was not meant to offend anyone and if mods want to move it or edit it, I understand.
Maybe some day I will fly my dragon again. Or swing Tinker Belles big axe lol. Finally getting to Arop was fun, releasing the dryads was fun, heck competing with other shards to do it first! was fun. I hope the fun comes back. Heck i used to think digging slate endlessly was fun (well not at first but you get used to it!) hehe
On Order.. we have a WM on most nights.. and he is a hell'uva RP'er.
Of course time restaints may be an issue for you being across the international date line. But we are being attended to!!
I was kinda hoping that all this stuff would end with DANU's post. He summed it up IMO.
Can't change the past.. just make a better tomorrow.
DB and the others have moved on. Lets go forward and PLAY!! We have the best community in the MMO world. Please, lets get back to that.
As a Cleric of Harden I am duty bound to teach you his ways.
or kill you trying!
he did not make this game, he stole it.
AGC announced that this week the second part of the 'world smiths' interview should be posted.
Then we can read two (at least partially) different views of horizons and its past and future.
All interviewees have their own agenda, and they want to present a certain view of events.
The entire interview shall not be able to give any reliable information. It's public relations stuff, for individuals and companies.
snickel wigglsniff (retired) Twilight Crusaders on Unity
poggle wigglsniff (gnomish crafter and mage) semi-retired on Order
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A gnomish house should not just sit there, it should definitely DO something!
See my post above. There was little to steal, and what was released was significantly different than what was inherited.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
- Albert Einstein
and what was released was anything but significant.
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