we can edit posts, we can lock posts, we can delete posts. I would rather edit when I can, but where there are too many posts that need to be edited, it then gets locked.
Remember, I am a volunteer, and I like to enjoy the game too.
Yes
we can edit posts, we can lock posts, we can delete posts. I would rather edit when I can, but where there are too many posts that need to be edited, it then gets locked.
Remember, I am a volunteer, and I like to enjoy the game too.
Thanks for bringing up this article. However, it still doesn't answer a few questions. I'm beginning to think that the questions I have may never be fully answered.
C`gan Weyrsinger, blue Tagath's rider, WorldProjects Team Lead Emeritus
Tagath, blue Lunus "for the breath weapon"
Located in sunny Acul on Trandalar, Order shard
Since nothing was quoted, I'm going to assume that was directed at me. I was simply making an observation based on the interview responding to the thread I quoted.Originally Posted by Peaches
If you get a pm from me
Then, it was directed at you, Since there are no pms sent to you, it means the general audience as well.
Thanks for bringing up the article. I'm looking forward to part 2. As a precaution I bookmarked it in case all of a sudden links to articles by DB start disappearing from these forums. (Not that they would mind you, nothing like that would never happen here, but I like to be careful. Call me paranoid.)
Like him or hate him, HZ as we play it was HEAVILY influenced by DB. Not only did he heavily influence the design, but more then once barely saved it from extinction.
Even though MMORPGs are becoming more popular then ever, it seems to me like they're getting into a rut. HZ tried to do some things no other MMORPG wanted to bother with. They weren't always successful but they tried, which is more then can be said for other, far better funded games.
I for one will definately give DB's next effort a VERY careful look. While I wouldn't play it if the concept doesn't strike a chord, I probably will if it does. He didn't always succeed, but he gave it his best to break out of the rut. That's more then can be said for most nowadays.
Thanks for linking the Article.
Through, I don't hate David, I hate baker who sold hz and ei who buyed it ... (roflmao :P). David did his best that Hz didn't got sold, but he couldn't bring up enough money to buy it as I know.
Well, interestig Article, I can't wait for the next part.
»• Adventurer 100 | Crafter 100 | Lairshaper 100 | 100 Million Hoard | Expert Dragoncrafter | Expert Lairshaper •«
You are incorrect, Horizons was mapped out before DB came on the scene, David Allen was thrown out and DB stepped in to create a watered-down Horizons. (Even HZ without pvp could be exceptional, with castle plots and an underwater world to explore etc...) You probably feel protective of him, thinking that it was his imagination that brought forth Istaria...however, if you had seen the original forums and original game website, you would know. More lore and content ideas/plans were present on the original website than ever made it into the game. (And that website was up long before DB appeared.) What DB had to decide on was how to choose which kind of content entered the game, and which didn't. He apparently judged things like castle plots were too difficult to impliment, and he was quickly proven wrong by other contemporary games such as Shadowbane, UO. Apparently he also thought that dragons shouldn't be able to fish. And people shouldn't be able to swim. Come on, Dark Age of Camelot didn't have a water-world at first, but at least there, water was a plane on which one could move horizontally across, if not vertically. It's not difficult.
Hate is a strong word, I'd say many are just frustrated and dissapointed in him. Players continue to play the game he made, because of it's potential. We are still waiting for the neat thing promised on the game box. The potential is astounding, that's why.
DB did after all, fail to come through on promises dozens of times, I'd be angry even with my best friend if he did that. It's true, all the game needs is a larger staff, but far from a "few" tweaks, it needs an engine overhaul, bug-ironing, and advertising. And it needs to do a whole lot of butt-kissing towards the loyal player base who are at the ends of their rope. The loyal player base needs to be retained. The loyal player base knows that DB was one factor in PREVENTING HZ from being one of the greatest MMOG's in the world. Thus, the frustration.
Yes, it has a few things players like. It should, and could easily have many, many more. Keeping it running is not what it needed. It needed probably an entirely new engine, new netcode, new models, new tutorial, new support team with TELEPHONE support options, more artists, more animators, in-game helpers, and a enough of a crew to put into the game what the box promised. DB had years to do this and didn't. Someone with real love for the game would have found a way. And found a way within 1 year's time.
ARoP, Lairs and lairshaping, and a proper newbie tutorial should have been in the game from day 1. The fact that these things took more than a year to implement is just sad. I know the crew wasn't large, and it was probably a feat for them to accomplish what they did and I'm not belittling that...but more hands should have been hired to run the ship. Plus, the crew was sent on meaningless tasks that took time away from the important ones. Changing mob locations in the world and making cities Level based was not necessary. Removing blighted nodes of resources wasn't necessary. Adding trees wasn't necessary, in fact it was a step backwards with a game engine that can't handle too many polygons at once.
Bottom line, is that HZ is a ship that could be superior to all others, but the captain was either incompetant or just too stubborn. The ship ran into a storm, and instead of ordering the water pumped out, and more hands to help pump, he put a skellaton crew on deck to bail with teaspoons. So what that he helped bail out a few cups of water? It's still foundering, clunking along at 5 knots when it should be cruising at 40 knots. He did too little too late.
Exelent, Tsarevna. I do not need to say more.
Incredible post there Tsarevna! Thank you, and hopefully EI can get the pumps going. "hopefully" =) key word there!
Personally, I do miss the staff of Tulga and I hope they are still playing in Horizons as well. That is not disparagement on EI's part. I'm sure in time we'll get a different friendship between staff and players. But something else needs to be said.
The reason the whole DA/DB thing came about was from Atari pushing little Artifact Entertainment around, trying to get a big programming job done in a very small amount of time or pulling their backing. I think both of them suffered under Atari's yoke, which limited what we're playing now. I think time expectations in fixing, patching, and updating now should really be secondplace as the job really needs done and done well. I, for one, am enjoying the little respite to help my guildmates build their plots up as well as my own, so we can in turn help out other guilds and other communities within Istaria.
C`gan Weyrsinger, blue Tagath's rider, WorldProjects Team Lead Emeritus
Tagath, blue Lunus "for the breath weapon"
Located in sunny Acul on Trandalar, Order shard
I'm sorry, but the fact that other games implemented something does not say ANYTHING about how difficult it is to implement those exactly same things or similar ones into HZ..
So after all only a Daveloper who knows the Horizons Code that existed at the time the decisions where made can judge if it was too "dificult" or not...
So he was not proven wrong, at least not by the fact that others did it. You just can't compare it...
My point: no one of us players can judge if his decisions where that wrong or not... but you're right if you say, it's sad that some things didn't make it into the game.
future
I play computer games. I was an avid player and a great fan of Asheron's call, before I began playing Horizons about a year and a half ago. So by definition I am a big fan of David Bowman's work...Oh and I wouldn't have bought the game if I wasn't. What ever tuff waters David faced he always tried his best for the game and the players, this say a ton about a person to a player like me. Let's applaud Horizons and what David has achieved. Miles to go before we rest.
I hope the time for griefing and complaining and insulting will soon pass. This game has the chance to be great not just good. Today we the players will dictate that future, not a distant investor.
Danu
The extreme viewpoints fail to acknowledge the general messiness of life and Horizons.
DB certainly blundered with regards to customer relations; much too secretive, much too defensive.
And I felt strongly that too often the answer to any question was "grind". Management skills seemed erratic at best; certainly no program management was evident.
On the other hand, devs have stated flatly, unequivocally, that without him, there would have been no Horizons at all. Some comments assume that the technical infrastructure would have allowed any game mechanics from day one; dungeons, swimming, riding, a solidly mobbed countryside, whatever. It didn't, and there have been some very interesting analyses by devs elsewhere talking about the technical choices made, with their advantages and disadvantages.
The comments also blame DB for rushing the game out prematurely; it was the publisher who did that, and who has shown poor business acumen ever since, and is in real financial trouble now. (At the time he said that he'd decided that the MMO genre had no future!)
Devs who talked of the early days recounted a time of chaos and ever-changing direction. Nothing could come to market out of that, and the post-Hz record provides confirmation. A lot of money spent to that point was wasted with the interminable changes. But that has been lumped in with the post DA era, to level charges of wasteful development. No, actually the latter pre-release period needed to spend more.
I REALLY don't care what the box said. I happily played for a long time, I'm still happy to sub to support, I got my money's worth and then some.
What we did get was Waaayyy better than nothing, which was the real alternative, not some fantasy mighta, coulda, shoulda.
____Kulamata Quality Armor___
None Genuine without this Pawprint `',''
Achiever 86%, Explorer 60%, Socializer 46%, Killer 6%.
I concur, Kulamata. Christmas, 2003 is when Tagath first started playing and I came in about a month later. Neither one of us have all our own personal goals done and we're still looking at lots of good gaming ahead.
C`gan Weyrsinger, blue Tagath's rider, WorldProjects Team Lead Emeritus
Tagath, blue Lunus "for the breath weapon"
Located in sunny Acul on Trandalar, Order shard
None of the players really know the full story, but they all think they do. Especially the players still bitter from 3 years ago that just can't let things go.
Kulamata is right on a lot of things, you can't blame DB for DA wasting millions and millions on a website and lists of features without any working tech at all. How can any company comeback after that realistically?
The real amount of time that they had to develop horizons just wasn't enough, along with bullies like Atari (who is in major trouble) breathing down their neck and telling them you have to have X # of quests, you have to have this and that feature because that is how it is going to be marketed.. can you imagine it falls short?
Take a look at most of the Atari games out, and you will see they are very consistant in that manor, rush rush to get it on the shelf. And while the average consumer doesn't know the difference, when game companies stop asking you to publish a game, you hurt.
you are misinformed. Atari was but the publisher they had no more power nor any other backing then printing the boxes burning the cd's and distributing them. Horizons release date was solely decided upon by AE and its investor creditors( which atari was not ). They also had no say in developing of the game. Larger forces at play probably wanted to take advantage of the christmas 2003 season and capitilize on sales. Its what every q4 released game tries to do really. They should have waited till christmas 2004. Regardless external investor pressures are present in every game in every product that has a release date to meet.
I wonder where this belief came from ? I cannot recall even Bowman saying there was pressure by Atari. As well do you all realize that most of Horizons investment dollars came after David Allen was already gone ? Sure he wasted some money but the bulk of the money raised was after he was gone. Still though you didn't have a disaster just yet then. It was the monumental waste of resources that occured during production and after release that led to AE's eventual demise. Even if I am off here there are other games that suffered just as bad a launch as Horizons did. They in fact were in worse shape than horizons was and recovered just fine. Mainly speaking of AO and WWIIO. If they recovered so could have AE. btw funcom yes even filed for chapter 11 but unlike AE they immerged from it.
Either way its too late to blame anyone. Whats done is done. Horizons is now undeniably in the hands of EII. Its their game to do with as they please.
Last edited by MadDwarf; September 21st, 2006 at 06:53 PM.
um, madDrawf, I don't think you understand publisher/developer relationships at all. Do some research, this has even been posted in the past. It is infact typical of Atari in many games.
Shows some class, Danu. In spite of all the bashing you and EII have received from those with close ties to the old regime, it's nice to hear you taking the high road on this one.
L100 Hatchling of the Realm of Order
AOO you are actually the one who is mistaken. Atari was the publisher of the game. They had ZERO creative input in the product itself. They dont care and probably dont know if Horizons is a betty Crocker virtual Easy Bake oven or a arcade style FPS. They take a product that they feel has merit and agree to dsitribute it through their channels. As a show of their vested intrest in the success of distrobution, most publishing deals include a royalty paid to the developers of the product up front at the signing of the publishing contract.
What happened to Horizons is that David Bowman actually started believing his own spin that the game would be ready for release when it was and he agreed to that date when he accepted pre-payment of several hundred thousand dollars from Atari for the contract. David set the date for the release, not Atari. David said what would be in the game, not Atari. David released a game that wasnt even close to beta quality never mind release quality.
That is how publishing deals are done.
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