Respect, honesty, openness and insults.

[Tzael]

Oh, and if you don't think that insulting is against the boards, please, reread the board rules.

I think we all need some clarification of the rules.

On the one hand anything negative said about EI/PME is considered insulting and therefore is not permissable.

On the other hand every day that goes by we the players are more and more insulted by EI/PME's lack of respect for us.

If insulting behaviour is not tolerated on this forum then I think it is long overdue for EI/PME to open up and be up front with us, the people who actually pay for them to live their day to day lives. Silence on the forums is insulting. Inability to accept responsibility for the problems that exist is insulting. Turning it around and blaming the paying customer for EI's lack of posts is insulting.

This is not a rant. This is a statement of fact. If my comments are not permitted under the forum rules please make sure I am fully informed of where I have stepped off the beaten path.

Ultimately I would like to see this community saved. As it currently stands I think you can all appreciate what I see as the cause of the problem.

[Kerech]

I agree with you. I've posted more than once about the need for EII/PME to be open and just talk to us. Nothing has come of those posts yet.

We are threatened that we are all exploiters and must fix our subscription problems ourselves or be banned... but we can't fix them because the billing page *still* does not work, 5 months after EII bought the game.

We ask for help and get the threads locked/deleted.

Is this the way to treat paying customers?

[Justa Mirage]

Read my locked post

Almost reads the same way, only worded differently.

This one probably will be locked too and you will be redirected to another thread to post about problems you are having.

But... nicely said

[Peaches]

I think we all need some clarification of the rules.

On the one hand anything negative said about EI/PME is considered insulting and therefore is not permissable.

On the other hand every day that goes by we the players are more and more insulted by EI/PME's lack of respect for us.

If insulting behaviour is not tolerated on this forum then I think it is long overdue for EI/PME to open up and be up front with us, the people who actually pay for them to live their day to day lives. Silence on the forums is insulting. Inability to accept responsibility for the problems that exist is insulting. Turning it around and blaming the paying customer for EI's lack of posts is insulting.

This is not a rant. This is a statement of fact. If my comments are not permitted under the forum rules please make sure I am fully informed of where I have stepped off the beaten path.

Ultimately I would like to see this community saved. As it currently stands I think you can all appreciate what I see as the cause of the problem.

Part of the board rules.
No personal attacks are allowed. This includes everyone from attacking other players to the developers. Use of derogatory words will get you moderated in quick order. Repeated attacks will get you banned. Personal attacks, also includes insults.
This has been a rule for a very long time. IF there is a problem with the rules, nce again, pm myself or EI. No matter how angry one is, the above rule is enforced. The posters can save the comunity by adhering to the rules. If said poster finds themselves angry, the best thing they can do, is calm down, before posting. By doing so, they are less likely to rant, vent, or attack, both other posters and EI.

The dictionary describes trolling as follows:
"To leave an intentionally annoying message on a part of the Internet in order to get attention or cause trouble." (From Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary ? Cambridge University Press 2003)
Trolling is a broad description for a number of activities on forums, and is subject to moderator review. Warnings may be issued for those who regularly perform acts of trolling.

Flaming is the posting of an angry or offensive message, and flame-baiting is the act of provoking such a response from other forum visitors. Flame-baiting may result in a warning. Flaming may receive a warning if directed at other forum visitors, developers, and forum staff.

This pretty much covers it all , I dont know what else I can say, but think before posting, keeping the board rules in mind.

Please do not attempt to discuss your personal problems you may have with other community members (including moderators) on the forums.

This includes board issues as well, as far as moderators go. Pms are to be used when you see problems on the boards, report a thread is also a nifty tool to use when you find a post in violation of the board rules.



((If insulting behaviour is not tolerated on this forum then I think it is long overdue for EI/PME to open up and be up front with us, the people who actually pay for them to live their day to day lives. Silence on the forums is insulting. Inability to accept responsibility for the problems that exist is insulting. Turning it around and blaming the paying customer for EI's lack of posts is insulting.))

EI has recently posted. They also said there would be more info on Monday. There is NEVER ever a need to insult. Calmness goes a long way, on both sides of the board.

On the other hand every day that goes by we the players are more and more insulted by EI/PME's lack of respect for us.

I am sorry if you feel, or if others feel, that they are being insulted. However, EI is not directly insulting you with slander, insults, etc. Posters are directly insulting other posters, and EI team.

If you have any further questions or doubt, please do send me a pm.

Thank you

[Kwinn]

If insulting behaviour is not tolerated on this forum then I think it is long overdue for EI/PME to open up and be up front with us, the people who actually pay for them to live their day to day lives. Silence on the forums is insulting.

They lived just fine BEFORE buying Horizons.

They are under no obligation to tell us anything whatsoever. That they do or don't is purely up to them. Yes, I wish they would communite more. No, it is NOT insulting to remain silent when doing otherwise in NOT manditory.

[Miyah]

They lived just fine BEFORE buying Horizons.

They are under no obligation to tell us anything whatsoever. That they do or don't is purely up to them. Yes, I wish they would communite more. No, it is NOT insulting to remain silent when doing otherwise in NOT manditory.

Of course it isn't mandatory, however, many feel disrespect, lack of concern, communication is bad business for the businessmen they are. Stressing the word businessmen. Not programmers, developers, or even comp geeks. They are doing what they do best. If you feel it isn't insulting Kwinn then that's your own opinion. Which you're semi-free to express.

[Vlisson]

oh you are so right!!

no communication with their paying customers show that they dont need their respect and dont care about them

[Ssilmath]

Silencing dissenting opinions or posts is insulting. Hiding behind rules that have been written so as to prevent any and all negativity is insulting. Constantly shifting the game from fake company to fake company is insulting. Years of gameplay going down the tubes because nothing is being done is insulting.

Really, are you people surprised that most of the people that frequent these forums are pissed off? That's why I canceled my accounts way back when I was still able to. I feel sorry for the people who want to pull out and can't. And I feel worse for the people that want to continue to play, but can't.

Paying for a movie ticket, only to find out that it isn't the movie you wanted, is out of focus,has no plot and bad special effects is insulting...

[AA0]

My opinion on it. The business they are in is customer service, they provide a service to the customer, not the product itself, that was done by someone else. To not give your customers the service they pay for and expect is insulting the customer.
If a retail store has employees that sit in a lounge all day, guess what happens to that store after too long? When line ups are 30 minutes long because people can't pay, what will happen?
If employees are the problem, management has to fix it, if the management is the problem, the customers fix it the only way they know how.

[Peaches]

and this goes for a few other gaming companies, where communication was non existent. Its up to the company how they determne to run THEIR company.I remember one company that it felt like fort knox was built around them, and as a result, it was next to impossible to report bugs etc.

Our fees pay for the access of the server, nothing more , nothing less. We don't get to hold over their head, well, you owe us for that, cuz we pay for your salary, that statement is soo far from the truth. Most companies have more than one source of revenue, therefore, its not just our fees that pay salaries.

There are games, that survive without further develpment. Now, wait, before you get all over my case. I am saying that not because I want to see that happen to horizons either, but because there are games out there that don't need a heck of a lot of support.


People can suggest how a company should be run, and thats easy to do, because *most* do NOT own their own business. Those that do, well, hats off to you. I have yet to deal with any company that doesn't have its own set of problems.

I recall , a while ago, that fo
lks that go to a restaurant, and are not pleased with thier meal, and they say, I dont go back there anymore. I am of the same mind. However, I am still happy with playing Horizons, so I stay.,

Its very easy to judge someone , than it is to walk a mile in their shoes.

[Kwinn]

Sure, they provide a service. So does your local electric company. And I can guarantee you they won't be calling you up every time they hire or fire someone, buy new equipment, upgrade meters or anything else they may do. No, the only communication you get from them is a bill once a month and the occassional letter 'Dear Customer, We're raising our rates.'

A gaming company is no different than the electric company. They owe us nothing other than access to the server. That's it boys and girls. And I can promise you that if servers didnt require maintenance we wouldn't get that either.

Now ya want EI to communicate. Hmmm, yeah right. After all the bashing they have received at the hands of the members of this forum, you wonder why they don't communicate? This forum membership sure as hell didn't welcome them with open arms did it? No, they cried for TG or in some cases, advocated mass cancellations! You wonder why they don't communicate? Even when they do it is picked apart for everything from spelling to syntax or they are called outright liars, incompetants and have been on the receiving end of suggestions that they couldn't pour piss from a boot if directions were stamped on the heel. All this while refrains of 'Tulga come back' whisper in the background. Small wonder they don't communicate.

Or could it be? That EI will not say anything because they've nothing to say? No, statement(s) are being made because no statement of any real content can be made at this time? Or that they won't point fingers at the downtrodden? Or maybe they just consider themselves above the mindless, baseless bashing and speculation without a shred of proof and choose not to participate!

Whatever the reason for the silence, we the playerbase have no right or expectation of communication from EI. If they do, it is a courtesy and should be treated as such. We have two options, and 2 options only, as players. We accept that EI IS NOT TG and will communicate as and when THEY see fit or we don't. Crying and whining won't prompt communication, indeed, it makes meaningful communication even more of a remote possibility.
So, either sit back and wait to see what happens next, log in, play, chat and enjoy yourself or move on!

[Phillip]

You know Kwinn, it's all good stuff but you can't expect them to understand most of it, you know.

TG come back and do what, add cowbells?

[Ankua Daru]

You are right, I do not understand the comparison. One is simply a game for entertainment, the other is a life threatening service if not provided to certain customers. We must inform certain customers about loss of service due to medical devices that need electricity. I bet if you call emergency services someone WILL answer the phone. These are two different type companies with different problems try another comparison this one is a bust.

By the way you do have an avenue to complain about rate changes see by law we must send out public notice of meetings discussing these changes and must vote in a public forum to these said changes. A game owner is not subject to the same laws because one is a public safety and the other well just entertainment.

But I do agree if you hate the lack of communication move on to a game that will. If you enjoy the game well have fun.

[Garfonso]

That's right... it's just entertainment...

It's sad, that they still have billing problems, and I hope that they will get resolved...

But for the rest of you, that currently don't have billing problems: Be entertaint...

[Sigi]

the rules
hmm, George Orwell, 1984, newspeak?

[MadDwarf]

Now ya want EI to communicate. Hmmm, yeah right. After all the bashing they have received at the hands of the members of this forum, you wonder why they don't communicate? This forum membership sure as hell didn't welcome them with open arms did it? No, they cried for TG or in some cases, advocated mass cancellations! You wonder why they don't communicate? Even when they do it is picked apart for everything from spelling to syntax or they are called outright liars, incompetants and have been on the receiving end of suggestions that they couldn't pour piss from a boot if directions were stamped on the heel. All this while refrains of 'Tulga come back' whisper in the background. Small wonder they don't communicate.
!

irrelevant and useless point

one only has to look at How PME/EII has dealt with Savage Eden. You will find its the same so no one should be surprised really.

has nothing to do at all whatsoever in any fashion or logic to this communities response to HOW THEY ARE running the game. None none at all.

[Tzael]

I can understand why some of you are saying "like it or leave" however I wish to change things simply because I want more of us to stay. I don't want us to leave which is why I am keen to see the root of the problem addressed by the owners.

This isn't some underhand attempt at trying to make people compare the current situation to what it was like with Tulga. That's pointless, what is done is done and here we are wanting to see our community survive. The problem is obvious, however all we can do is look to the current owners for the resolution. If we do not let them know there is a problem then are they any the wiser as to why subscriber numbers are not as favourable as they were at the time of purchase ?

I can trace my mmorpg lineage back ten years. The Realm Online, Meridian 59, Ultima Online, Anarchy Online, Neocron, Biosphere (the European version of Savage Eden), Horizons, Silkroad Online, and a number of others I've dabbled in but never become heavily involved with. With the exception of SRO which is a far eastern game with a distinct language barrier I have become accustomed to regular news, planned updates, acceptable turnaround on support incidents, and even the occasional bit of banter with the developers. The news, updates, and support are crucial elements to a successful mmorpg, neglect them and you may as well forget about customer loyalty.

Most of what I state is personal opinion, some is undisputable fact, ultimately know this: The community must survive if the game is to survive and therefore I place the task of rectifying the situation and maintaining the community squarely at the feet of Pixel Magic Entertainment.

[Peaches]

Those of us that have stayed, want the best for horizons, and I do believe those , that are just fed up, still want the best for horizons.

[pan]

the electric company, probably regardless of what state you live in, operates at some sort of profit. as do a few of the mmos mentioned previously. you dont like the service from a public utility, you can quit the service but gl getting water, power, gas, communications(at least local long distance service), etc from an alternative. also some of the mmos can afford to give players the "dont like it leave" ultimatum. i think that is the big difference.

most are not saying its the rules or the law they communicate certain things but i believe everyone could agree it would be in their best interest. imo, they need to go above and beyond.

[Xante]

and this goes for a few other gaming companies, where communication was non existent. Its up to the company how they determne to run THEIR company.I remember one company that it felt like fort knox was built around them, and as a result, it was next to impossible to report bugs etc.

I can understand this point of view, and hey, I even agree with it to some temrs ... However, What Tzael wrote in his title is important too.. the word Respect.

I do not wish to bash any one here but, a company decides how much information they give to the community of their game, which is totally their descision and their right to do so, even if the community wants to know every little detail of what is going on - by way of speaking - even the latest office gossip.

However, when a comapny start using words which contain a certain degree of promise, then it is the community`s full right, to demand that either the promise is fullfilled or an appropiate explenation given as to why the company could not fullfill it.

let me give an example of the past (and not to any revelance in the current situation, or meant as bashing merely as trying to explain my point!!)

When the security certificate was expired for the Unity shard (more then a year ago) .. the company gave information to the community, in which they used words as "soon" or "couple of days"

(Soon according to dictionary: in or after a short while, in a little while, before long, any minute now)


by using such words the company actually gives the community a promise. If the company can`t fullfill their words (promise) or choose not to do so for whatever reason, the community is in their total right to complain and even demand that the actions will be done within an immediate, realistic, appropiate timeframe or that the company gives a acceptable and (specifically) clear answer/statement of why the action could not been made.

If a company does not doe the last point (specially giving clear explanations) then it is normal for hte community to get more frustrated, sinical, angered as we all do in real life also.it is part of a humans nature.

why would the community show such type of repsonse to (in)action of a company? Because the community feels that there is no or a lack of respect towards them not just a players or paying customers, but as human beings who do not want to treated like some one that is just some letters/words on a internet page.

and that is important too for a company to understand.

However, a community needs to show their respect to the company also in the way how they reply/ post/ ask ... I do have to state that too!!

I only can hope that the company shows their respect to their community (= customers) in giving the clear answer/ explanations / promises that it is probably been waiting for. And that in repsonse the community could give some understanding after receiving the clear answers/ explanations / promises, which in the end will only favor all parties as we all show respect to eachother.

Its very easy to judge someone , than it is to walk a mile in their shoes.

you`re right, but think about this one too :

Promising is easier done that delivering.