Here's something you guys would like to know.

[Jaraiden]

- I'm a pure Lunus Dragon, and I would be reallyangry ifI must be 100 adv/100craftto begin the ARop.

- I hope that ARop will be "tendance based" : if you're a Lunus, then lvl 95+ adv and 50+ craft for example, and if you're Helian, then lvl95+ craft and lvl 50+ adv ... And real differences between ancient drags for each tendances [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-11.gif[/img]

- Same advice as everyone about a HV requirement (if any of course) : full amount of hoard for my lvl 100 is totally insane, and would be never reached by a lot of drags.

- Game time : Bah, I know a lot of drags who are afk all the days (when they are at work, school, etc.), only to increase their "in game time" ... Don't think it's very fair to have a req on this point.

On the crafting side,dragons on the Lunus path are "usually" melee focused, that is shown by the mining trainer and scalecraft trainer in Dralk. Helian "usually" spell focused with quarry trainer and spellcraft trainer in Chiconis.If AE had Lunus crafting tasks scale oriented, that would be good. However, knowing AE it will only be a statue and phylactery.

Craft level is essentially high 30 (Helian) or low30 (Lunus)for a hatchling's "Become a True Helian/Lunus". So 50 is far to low. Likely 80 would be the minimum and it should be the same for both paths (if such quests are essentially dragon only ones, as they should be). AE puts a higher crafting level on the Helian path to adult for what I feel is the intended aspect that Lunus dragons help their own while Helian dragons will havemore biped assistance on the adventure side. So it is nice to see a player of a pure Lunus dragon.

As for game time, true . . . but something is better than nothing. Accounting for both RL time (timesince creation) and IG time (played or otherwise) is better than nothing.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

I just find it intersting that when we were posting in the weeks before the RoP (around what..the 4th month of game) was released, by FAR the majority of hatchlings WANTED a RL requirement to the RoP.

Which..AE had hinted in all the time before then that there was going to be a real life time dedication in order to be adult. And then when it went live, it was such that we discovered there was no time requirment and it was not true.

Now that the real life time requirment comes back into discussion - its not a clear majority of those posting still pulling for a RL time requirment. I wonder how the dragon population of players has shifted?

To me, I thnk there SHOULD have been a RL time requirement for Adult - so you don't have the issues you have now of "adult in a week" etc.etc. But then, it was also SUPPOSE to be that you didn't hit adult, and complete the ROP, before 50. Since they made the RoP so group concentric...well it was easily shown that 35 was plenty.

And I STILL think thata RL requirement should be in for Ancient. Ancient should not be just something anyone who logs in tomorrow can have in a month and quit. You're Ancient, you show your dedication to BEING a DRAGON in Horizons - not the fact that you can get PL by your guild and be ancient in 2 weeks and then quit the game because there is "nothing left to do".

They are hinting that there won't be any level requirements - I have no issues with that. Having played since a month after release, I'm only level 60/56. I think it would be GREAT for those players who do OTHER things in game besides level to still be able to acheive ancient in December even if they are not 100 in something. But I would have no issue with a level requirement either. I like either way.

I certainly would love no hoard requirment. I thikn the hoard caps for current levels is assinine - especially given all the hoard value nerfs we've had since release. Hoard values have been lowered at least three times since release - but the caps and the armor bonus do not change?! [:@]

I do advocate a real life time requirement - because that would be the only way you could really *limit* the number of Ancients (the idea of Rare) in game.

Any other way of "limiting" the number of Ancients I believe would be unfair and wo8uld cause players to quit. I konw if they come out and go "no more than 100 ancients in game at any time" I'd quit. Why? Because what about those people who hit Ancient and then don't play for 6 months?? And because of them I'm at 120/120 and can't be ancient beacuse they are suppose to be "rare"...well Bulltokens!

This "Rare" crap needs to be thrown out. EVERY SINGLE player willing to put in the time, money,a nd effort into a dragon should be able to reach Ancient. Limit it by level requirement, hoard requirment, time requirement - but that's IT.

But please...please...if there is a hoard requiremnt..dont make it 25million!

[Goriax]

There's a lot to be said for encouraging players to NOT powerlevel their way up. One aspect of a RL time requirement is it tends to do that.

Powerleveling distorts the entire game. Instead of trying to seak out and destroy the Withered Aegis, players are looking for the best mobs for "xping".

HZ appears to be targetting people who have only a moderate amount of time to play. For example it's relaxed attitudes towards travel (all those teleports), grouping (everyone can solo) and death penalty (those death points wear off whether you're online or not). It's not really geared to the anal EQ style gameplay which pushes people to forgo their life in order to level up. They don't seek to penalize 24/7 players but such players can't expect to be given the world on a platter like they would in EQ/EQ2.

So yes, I like the idea of emphasizing real world time, and then give people plenty to do so the time does not wear heavily. However, there DO need to be some other requirements. Obviously one requirement for the AROP is you're an adult -- no going directly from hatchling to ancient please. An ancient SHOULD be pretty good at SOMETHING I would think. After all, he's supposed to represent a dragon who's been around for a long time and seen the world several times over.

I think a requirement of 100/100 is way too much but any prospective ancient should be in a fairly high percentile in something. Perhaps if he had either crafting or adventuring level at 75 or so. Enough to insure the person really is playing his dragon without pushing people into hard core powerleveling. If you can't make 75 after a year of playing your dragon regularly you really aren't trying. It would just seem wrong if there were a bunch of level 40 ancients running around.

Alternatively, they could have two tracks and remove any explicit level requirements by having dragons DO something if they're carefully tailored to avoid exploits. The adventuring track would be easy -- you have to solo some tough mob of some fairly high level. If you die or anyone else interferes (damages it or casts any beneficial spells on you) then it doesn't count. Perhaps all buffs except your own are stripped before the fight starts. Perhaps if anyone interferes then a level 200 unkillable mob spawns and squashes them dead.This also has the advantage of forcing the PERSON playing the dragon to know how to play his dragon as well.

A crafting task would be a bit more difficult but again, forcing them to DO something as opposed to forcing them to BE some level would be good I think.

Also, I have no problem at all with a moderate hoard requirement. I would consider a million moderate. Hoards and dragons go together and they SHOULD feel like they need to be accumulating hoard. Nowadays it isn't hard to accumulate hoard.It's not like it decays or anything. If you're crafting just hoard what you craft. If you're adventuring just hoard all the drops you can hoard. If adventuring hoard is a bit hard to come by then they should increase the drop rate of hoardables rather then decrease the hoard requirement. I've accumulated something around a million hoard since the merge just from working on my crafting abilities -- I make scales and hoard them. It should not be hard at all to have a million hoard after a year.

[Varangaard]

I am fully in support of a real time requirement for ARoP. I was for RoP, back when it was being prepared. They talked about 3 months; I wouldn't have met it when they first intended to go live with RoP (but would've when they finally did the content push) and it was ok with me. I was very disappointed when AE chickened out and set no time limit at all.

I am not expecting a very large boost from getting to Ancient. However if you ask me what I'd like it to be, I'd say an ancient dragon at L100 should be more powerful than any other character class. Why? Because dragons cannot multiclass. The only way we can ever compare to bipeds taking on their 4th or 5th L100 is to be more powerful than any other single class at L100.

Of course, that ain't going to happen. I've said it before on Tazoon and I'll reiterate, what I expect to get from ancienthood is:
* a stat boost, this will probably be identical to what we got as adult (+50 armor etc)
* opens a possibility to upgrade to fire breath IV and ice/lightning breath II
* second tier to the path of lunus/helian, probably doubles the existing effects
* we grow in size some more
* and that's all

[Amerelium]

...there should be an adv lvl 100 req. It just seems wrong to have an ancient any lesser than that. A game-time/real-time req would also be nice, though it does not have to be insanely long. A year is too long. I would say 3 months real time should be an absolute minimum. Byut game age is better. True, one can park a dragon, but a parked dragon won't level or increase it's hoard. Another req could be that ALL ability quests are done, uo to the level rquired. That would ensure a certain minimum of participation from the dragon itself...

- most importantly: The ARoP itself should be difficult as hell. One idea here is to have some stages that have to be finished solo...

[Goriax]

If it's necessary to do all ability quests then it will be a long time before people can do the AROP what with broken quests. Sounds good in theory, but until they improve their reliably I don't think it'll work in practice.

Three months is way too short. Anyone who got to level 100 in three months was doing a lot of powerleveling and I think the idea here is to discourage that and get people to play the game instead of look for the optimum leveling strategy. Typically, someone who has only played for three months to get to 100 only knows the few areas necessary for optimum advancment. Now THAT seems plain wrong to me. An ancient should have a deep understanding of the entire world.

No, a year sounds good to me. Since he knows that it's going to take him a year regardless there will be less need to hurry, and he can wander around and try things.

As for the AROP itself, it would be nice if the key requirement for an adventurer would be to solo some very nasty critter.

[Jaraiden]

Well, I would like to see ALL the trainers have ALL of their tasks completed to 100 . . . it stands to reason an Ancient Dragon should have full knowledge (well mostly, I dread having to do Gold Rage tasks V and above).

Also, why not have all of the trainers task the dragon with something related to their field? Lunus scalecrafting / Helian spellcrafting to give an item needed on the quest to become an Ancient of their path.

A completed "Become an Ancient Helian/Lunus" series of tasks WITHOUT completed (and properly working) skill tasks deprives the adult dragons of needed skills . . . like Dragon's Reach and Accuracy Breath.

[Vesuvius]

Personally I dont see any reason for all the ability tasks to be done. As mentioned before, half of them are bugged/dont work, especially the newer ones. There is no reason to think that an Ancient will be unable to do them after completing the second RoP.

[Dragonboy]

It is easy to talk about a 1 year old characterbeing a requirement for the Ancient Rite of Passage forall the people who have been playing since the game was released...
Personally Ihave been playing for about 3 months now...
Eventhough leveling doesnt go fast forME at the moment...
Why shouldnt the true hardcore players be allowed to go ancient before they are 1 year old once they reach lvl 90+ (preferebly on craft), they worked just as hard as the long time players and in my eyes would have earned the "honor" of becoming ancient...
To me even becoming Adult is quite an annoying prospect except for the flying and more important the khutit form... But even I will need to go for it soon if I ever wanna fly... (o.m.g. how I love my hatchy form [:'(])
But that is another story for another time... [;)]

In any case to return to the matter at hand...
I hope that Lairs wont be to expensive and mostly near Chiconis and Dralk or in a floating island above Draak (love the view of some undead in the morning)... [;)]
I prefere the ARoP to have a mostly adventure lvl requirent (and maybe a 6 months age requirement)

-=edit:
As for powerleveling, the only way to prevent that is to cancel the xp-leech ability into no hit no xp... Personally I have always hated this and was never afraid to let others know about this... Another way to discourage hatchlings who only barely have the requirements from starting the RoP is changing the whole stupid Rite of Passage... Make it reasonably difficult and extensivebut completely SOLO and when helped during fights dont count the kills, but it will cause a slight change in mobs for example Crystilized Golem, Entombed Will, Kaa, Lem who have unimaginable amount of Health Points, Not even talking about in my case the Shadow dragon who is said to have 130k+ Health Points... Make is simular for the ARoP, very Difficult but a SOLO experience without any help during fights allowed. =-

[Vesuvius]

I am a 'hardcore' player.

From the beginning I supported a one year requirement for the Ancient RoP, I still do now. The reason I want it, is because to some of us, Ancient means alot more than simply leveling fast. It is a symbol of a dragon that has been around for a long time. Level has absolutely NOTHING in regards to accounting for that, a RL time does.

If it came down to it, I would rather have to wait another 6 months (1.5 year requirement) with the quest implemented than have no RL time or a lame RL time like 3 months.

Ancient should be something only the most DEDICATED dragons reach, period. Time shows much more dedication than does level.

Level is important because an ancient should be powerful as well as 'old'. A level 40 dragon is not powerful.

[Goriax]

Before release I was in favor of a 2 year wait until ancient. I considered one year the abolute minimum if a time requirement is to mean something.

I think a RL time requirement does wonders for cutting the legs out from under the powerleveling mentality.

It makes a lot of sense. Yes I know there's a lot of people who like to powerlevel their way up and quit after 4 or 6 months and they won't be happy with a RL time requirment. They were going to quit anyway which is why they aren't happy with it. They have no committment, just a lot of time to kill and a willingness to use whatever exploit they can to level as fast as they can. They'll play for a few months, then cancel and move on to the next MMORPG where it'll be rinse and repeat. Ancient is not for them.

Ancient is for the ones who stick with it through thick and thin.

If you're willing to stick with the game for a year or whatever, then ancient is for you. If you are not willing to stick with it that long, then ancient is not for you. You can sample everything else in the game you're willing to PL your way to, but it would be nice if there's somethingthat only the committed can get.

[Jaraiden]

Personally I dont see any reason for all the ability tasks to be done. As mentioned before, half of them are bugged/dont work, especially the newer ones. There is no reason to think that an Ancient will be unable to do them after completing the second RoP.

The other reason is, I just want those hatchlings and adults to have these skills done (fix and update the older skill quests). It doesn't make sense to me to have the full blown series of quests to "Become an Ancient Helian/Lunus" in game allowing aBreath of Fire IV using only Accurate Breath IV.

Just saying AE needs to make efforts to complete the hatchling and adult playing experiences, thus I hope skill tasks are fixed, then lairs, then the aptly named ARoP.

[Dragonboy]

I call myself quite an addict, last time I checked I had an character age of 90 days and an ingame time of almost 29 days...
So quickly calculating... 3 months old but in hours only 1 month of real time played...

I saw many whining posts of high lvl dragons who want the RL time requirement only because they stayed with the game forso long... But just because all you by now high lvl dragons had to wait for so long... Not because it was bugged, but because it wasnt even created yet, why should the hatchies of today be forced to wait foran ARoP...

I would sooner vote for an ARoP to be mostly solo and VERY difficult and requirements to be very difficult to be met...

Withstarting requirements:
1) High adventure and craft lvl:
This would probably make the ppl who hate crafting or adventuring curse me a lot, but I personaly think that anAncient dragon should at least be able to craft a decent scale or spell for himself or others and kill a decent mob.
2) certain high base or current strenght/power requirement.
3) A high hoard requirement:
For example 10-20m will make it very difficult for powerlevelers to reach in short time also for myself, but at least it will be a challenge for some.
4) Completed all adventuring and crafting ability quests to max:
To max. should not necessarily mean to lvl 100, thats depending on Point 1.

Withrequirements for failure:
1)A dp count and to many is failed for 1 month ingame time or so.

Other then that simular to the RoP, with the difference that the named quest mobs are only allowed to be HIT by the dragon performing a ARoP, so all others attacking willalways miss target...

Personally I am in doubt about allowing fellow ARoP performing dragons help each other, because then in the beginning the dragons who start it will have it easy because many will at the same time might be going for ARoP

Becoming Ancient doesnt only prove the fact that a players stayed for so long with an "incomplete" game, but becoming Ancient proves that as a dragon you have been able to survive for a long time, has grown to a respectible lvl and that the dragon posseses the knowledge and strenght in mostly melee (lunus)or mostly magic (Helian) to be allowed the titel Ancient...
In the way I layed out now, ppl will probably have to be patienced anyway if a failure results in a 1 month ingame exclusion of re-doing the ARoP and not even powerleveling can help peoplebecause of A) Thehigh hoard requirement andB) Beingforced to kill the quest-mobssolo and maybe some help from friends for the mob his escorts or some necessary healing...
Doing a lvl 120 named quest Mob (with a lot of hp... 100k or more) solo will be quite a challenge even with healing and buffs from friends...

It might be obviousI strongly appose the requirement of age for ARoP only because of the arguments that some have been playing longer then others...
Because this is simply bs (pardon the language), eventhough you have been PLAYING for a year doesnt mean you necessarily have earned the right of becoming ancient, everyone who has played long enough to meetcertain requirement should be allowed to try and prove he/she is worth the honor...
The honor should not be his by right to those that played a year, eventhough someone powerlevels (something I personally dont approve) doesnt mean he makes it to ancient if the quest is difficult enough...

[Pharcellus]

Level is important because an ancient should be powerful as well as 'old'. A level 40 dragon is not powerful.

News flash: A level 100 Dragon is not "powerful", either. [:P]

[Vesuvius]

News flash: A level 100 Dragon is not "powerful", either. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

Its a hell of alot more powerful than a level 40 dragon.

I hold my own well enough as a level 100 dragon. Our weakness is more from the fact we still arent complete and we do not have anything to make up for the fact we cant multiclass.

A level 100 dragon can easily match a single school 100 biped.

And to the other guy posting how he doesnt want a RL requirement. Still wont get any sympathy from me for being impatient. If you cant wait a year to get Ancient then you dont want it bad enough. THAT is the bottom line. I dont care about stopping powerleveling ect. I care that people that are ancients really want it. RL time requirement cuts all the people that THINK they want it, but are not willing to do WHATEVER it takes.

[Dragonboy]

Apart from the fact the other guy has a name... [:P]

I clearly stated the reason why and gave a proposition to making it more difficult for people to become Ancient and thus make them more rare, only some ppl apearently dont wanna read that or at least dont even bother commenting on that since they wanna get Ancient by right for "All that waiting" they have been doing... At least so it seems to me right now... [:|]
Only because someone runs through the lvl's faster then someone else doesnt make then less commited then someone who takes his time...
The only problem is that te person who lvls faster might get bored sooner and especially because of this 1 RL year requirement he or shemight indeed quit the game...

Personally speakingat the current speed of leveling I do right now it will probably take me more then a year (including the 3 months I done already) to reach lvl 100 (or lvl 120) anyways, but I try to be the speaking voice for those who wanna advance faster then me and therefore Igive propositions nobody is interested in... [:)]

Apart from the constant presence oflag especially in LAGoon (ow sorry Tazoon), bugged quests (most have beenfixed already thank god) andbad respawn of mobs and resources I still find enough challenges to keep playing so I wont be leaving just yet, eventhough ingame I might say otherwise (mostly after I discover a bug or error [:S])...

I will reach lvl 100 one day (craft probably sooner then Adventure... lol)... When I cannot say, but it will happen and I hope that at least I am allowed to go for Ancient myself... [:D]
Unlessby that time it is not allowed anymore because all the nowlvl 100 adults turned Ancient and ppl decide there are to many Ancient dragons flying around... [:@]

I still keep stubornly to my earlier post and still dont think ppl who have been waiting for a year automaticly earn the right for Ancient...
If ancient is supposed to be so rare... Make the ARoP very difficult...

[Mordoth]

I would agree with having a RL or game time requirement. I have been playing since release, and was under the impression that the Adult RoP would have a time requirement. It didn't, and I was pretty unhappy with all the folks who power leveled their hatchlings to adult in short order. It was hardly representative of the effort it should take.

As to a level requirement of 100 for ARoP, I would be against it being that high. Not because it's difficult to get there or any of that. But if you're 100 and you become Ancient, then suddenly you have nothing else to achieve. I know that there are plans to raise the level cap, but from what I understand it will be 120. So if you have to be 100 to be Ancient, you don't have much time (level wise) before you have hit the cap as an ancient. And as a Dragon, without abilities to multi-class, you have hit 'end game' and things become much less interesting without goals or something to work towards achieving.

We have had many players leave the game due to having reached 100 as a Dragon and having nothing left to do. I would hate to have to reach 100 to become Ancient and then have nothing left to do.

[Dragonboy]

I do understand the point of the others wanting the 1 year, but then it is also important that there will be new (working) challenges added to the game on a regular bases, some in craft and some in adventure for those that need it to get through time...[:)]
At the moment I dont really like to think of a future of only being able to help others without any real challenge for myself except for constantly killing lvl >100 mobs...[|-)]
Multi-class might be a nice idea, not starting from ancient, but from adulthood...
But the DRAGON ONLY construction of the lairs might be a good enough challenge to start with for those with the cash to buy one that is... [;)]

[Vesuvius]

Heh, I didnt mean any disrespect when I said 'the other guy'. It was more from the fact these forums dont show all of the previous posts when posting a reply and I had already typed up that message. Being I have a college mentality, it required too much effort to open up a new window just to scroll down and find your name again Dragonboy.

In regards to you ideas of making it difficult, they all sound pretty good. I especially like the idea of it being completely a solo event, as it should be. If the mobs were hard enough, there would be an indirect level cap in there as well, which is good, better actually than a numerical requirement. (If someone can make up for levels with personal skill, all the power to them, in a RP sense both equate to the same thing anyway).

However, while the ARoP DOES need to be difficult, difficulty does not limit the number of ancients. Anyone with some ambition can accomplish a difficult task or meet steep requirements. I have mentioned several times the mechanical basis (time commitment shown by a player) and it is true that I am slightly biased to the fact I have waited near a year for this, I will not lie. Understand though, from beta, we were told that both the Adult and especially the Ancient RoPs would both have time requirements to complete. AE flat out lied to us on the adult rop and simply used that as an excuse for not having it done by release. It was a slap in the face to every player that had waited patiently for that to happen. So the RL time thing is nothing new, its not a concept we are just making up.

What I did not mention much aboutis the lore motive behind why it should be 9months-12months.

1) (This was hinted to) There is a distinct difference between age and skill. An adult dragon could be a very skilled warrior or adept mage, but that does not entitle him/her to be one of the ancients. An ancient is very wise becausethey have been around for a long time, not because they were a fast learner.

2) If every dragon becomes an ancient in a short period of time, then it completely removes the presitge that being an ancient entails. What fantasy world do you know of where the skys are filled with hundreds of ancient dragons and a handful of adults and hatchlings? Time requirement in combination with difficulty of the quest is the best way to prevent this from happening. Just one or the other is not enough.

3) For when I think of something else ;)

Now some people have said that people can just park a level 1 hatchling for a year and then shoot for it. I suggest this to avoid that.

Lets say 10months is the required time.

Only the first 2 months are counted as a hatchling. The final 8 only count down after completion of the RoP.

I disagree with any 'ingame' time requirement (and trust me I have plenty of it ::laugh:: ). The reason is that I do not believe someone should be punished for not being able to PLAY for as long as someone else. If its too low, then there really isnt any point of having one. If it is too high, those people with less time will just park their character afk for a week or so to get the time in.

So I am sure then that people will want to argue, "Well what if someone makes a level 35 adult and just parks them for 8 months?"

Fine. There is nothing wrong with that, this is where the difficulty of the quest and requirements come in. That person will still have to level and hoard up that character to get to do the ARoP. Also, during that 8 months that person was probably playing their biped character, they will have plenty of knowledge about the world of Istaria. I can give some credit to this at least because they had to put in an initial commitment. It cuts the legs from all those people who have low levelhatchlings sitting on their accounts near a year old. Those people are much less deserving of the ARoP than say Dragonboy who has been playing his for several months now.

There is no perfect, feasible solution. But I think something along the lines of what I mentioned would come pretty close.

[Tigris]

A lot of bipeds I know made a dragon early early on, like right after release, and they are still under level 10, laying dormant all these months. So if there was a RL time requirement, these little hatchlings would be ancients by December. Bad idea, IMHO.

Level requirement for ARoP? Not a good idea either since this would lead to a lotta powerlevelled dragons.

I honestly don't know what the requirements will be, but I suspect insane hoard and crafting requirements. [:(]