Billing Feedback

[gopher65]

See, what LO said makes sense. I see that as a good way to describe Horizons. They just don't make cars like a VW bus any more. And no one has made Horizons again either. And that right there is reason enough to keep paying someone who wants to help make the game "road worthy" again.

True. And that is why I am here.

But while there may be a few of us who are willing to spend mega-bucks to buy back our old rustbucket because of all the character and the coolness factor of it, most people wouldn't. If you told someone "Yeah I bought a junker VW bus for 60000 dollars the other day, and I'm going to try and fix it up over the next few years!" most people would look at you like you were insane. Heck I would look at you like you are insane.

I like HZ, but it just isn't worth as much money as a new, shiny, polished game that comes with a built in DVD player and a rocket propelled ejection seat(with parachute).

[Valados]

The thing with the VW bus is that, while it may not be the best running things on the road, it is usually still running long after it's designed lifespan. It also stands out in a parking lot, surrounded by all those identical models in identical colors...

I'll stress it again. Alot of people I allready know is allready gone. Theres some lost players allready. So, if people allready playing are not confident how will new ones be attacted and actually stay?

[Henry Redacre]

Just because you are unique does not mean you are useful.

God I've always loved that one.

[Tryagain]

lol people HZ is not some VW bus

its a series of coded projects that makes reads and writes to a database. It also runs on computers that some pay good $$$ for. It had better look perty and it had better run well.

As well each MMO is pretty much unique in its own right. Its whether or not the uniqueness of the game appeals to our game preference.

The MMO market as a whole has already rejected what Horizons had to offer. So much that is has now gone through 3 companies and sent two into bankruptcy.

Vitrium now has to take what horizons can do and make it a stable plaform that runs well on machines we pay good $$$ for. They also have to demonstrate they can do better than AE/Tulga ever did.

Remember that.

[Lunhilde]

VW Bus.. with a propane tank and a water cooler bottle on the roof.. a bent fork..

.. okay. So maybe HZ is turning into the MMO version of Burning Man, and amazing event, but crazy, strange, artistic but at times crude, appealing to a small audience, and dissapears after a little while, leaving nothing till the nenxt time it shows up.

But man, what a fireshow.

If it can be a niche game and advance slowly, sure. But people need to be willing to put the money into it to make it work. In a normal world there would be investors and the like, they are a risk. I suspect this is being done on a shoelace at this point, I would hope none of these guys mortgaged the house or maxxed out some credit lines on a chance.

As for the money that went to EI, that was EI's money, I don't think they'll be giving it back to the players or to Vi anytime soon. It's like paying rent for a house with a nasty landlord who never does anything - when he sells the apartment and someone else buys it, you can't expect that person to have the money you paid the former owner, much less give it back or use those non existent funds to immediately fix anything - since obviously they paid to buy the apartment building to begin with. You would try to expect them to fix all the leaky sinks and the like, but my suspicion is that the initial investment here is more time than money - people working for almost nothing to nothing as opposed to bring paid normally etc at this time.

I know for a lot of people the initial excitement is going to wear off and we're going to start getting nervewracked and wonder, why the heck am I doing this? So instead of imagining it as some big MMO compay right now, I'm just looking at it like some grassroots group who figures, hey, lets run an MMO, and I am deciding to support them in it. Sure, these days they need to keep themselves a little more covered up (posting as Horizons CS instead of any one person) but I know why that is, and heck, I sat in IRC chat with these guys for how long, every day, for months, talking about all sorts of random whatever back in the day, me sitting around and /dance - ing when the poop is hitting the fan cause I knew that the best thing was to just be a stress reliever and not a stress causer? (shrug)

Dunno. I consider these guys friends. Maybe that's stupid. But it's also a human thing to do.

[Fyrentennimara]

You're right, it is a human thing to do. It's also a human thing to be skeptical of anyone who comes in and says, "Hi! We're Virtrium, LLC and we'll be taking over the helm here for Horizons. And oh, BTW, we know you don't have any idea who we are or who we're affiliated with but....could you give us more money a month, please? Oh! And as a side note, we're going to be hacking up the billing options and perhaps taking them thar large plots away so we can fork those over to those who have more money than you! Tootles!"


That's what they said originally. I know it wasn't in those exact terms, but hey "standard plot"? Vague. They clarified yes, but, get a grip people for one second. You don't know these people, only what they claim to be, and now they're asking you to fork over, in some cases, hundreds of dollars in advance! Are you really that trusting? *cough*thelast12months*cough* Who's to say they aren't going to shut the lights out 2 months into your shiny new 6 month Ancient Subscription that you paid for all in advance?? I don't think many of you have learned yet.

It would have been easier, for them to come in here, turn on our regular billing methods, and start out slow. Fix something. Let us see you here for a couple of months, THEN start yapping about the financial bottom line. How many subs you really think are still in this game? 2500? Total? I have no idea, but I'm going to bet that 2500 is a generous guesstimate. Better to start out slow than to scare of probably half of that number, don't you think??

Considering them friends, without knowing them, is way too trusting. for me anyway. Sorry, I want some concrete proof that they aren't here for the almighty dollar and they care about this game as much as I do. I also want to know they're not going to come in here and yank what I've had for 2 years and give it to some schmuck with more money.

[Lunhilde]

Well, yeah, to each their own. I mean, like I said, I hung out with these guys as human beings online, and not as devs, for months. Heck, even David being human.

Everything in the world is a risk. That's life. Hate to wax philosophical, and sure, I could be wrong, but I could also be right. I've been wrong before and it hasn't killed me yet, I've been right before and it hasn't made me win the game of life. It's all about everyone's personal level of trust. And again: I have spent more on less. I'm a donating member of b3ta.com, I have a Chidreach sponsor child, I've given people I only know from the computer 200 bucks so they could see a doctor (no health insurance), I've housed people in my home for months when they've had nowhere else to stay that I 'didn't know'.

You get out of the world what you put into it. I wasn't around for EI, I'll state again. I was around for Artifact and part of Tulga, and knew a heck of alot mroe about what was going on than I should have, but that, if anything, made me more sympathetic - to everyone involved - than angry or untrusting. Oh well, it didn't work out. But damnit, I KNOW people tried, worked their TAILS off, worked till they were SICK. I know it for a FACT. And that, trying, is worth it in my book. My book is different from other people's, I know that, and would ever expect anyone else to take a page from it.

and P.S. The almighty dollar never really existed for HZ. Maybe the little pay the mortgage dollar, ut never an almighty one - at least not since the first year of AE.

[Henry Redacre]

Fyren,

I absolutely respect and appreciate your skepticism. The way you phrased things is, in a way, pretty much what Virtrium said, and especially after the billing fiasco that was EI, I don't blame you one bit for being skeptical. I like skeptics. Skeptics tend to have a better and more grounded view of what's going on than the sometimes "sunshine-up-their-arse" optimists, and the doomsayer pessimists.

I don't, however, agree with you in this particular case. I believe these Virtruim guys are alright, and have the best of intentions, which includes not maliciously screwing anyone over. Of course, I can't say that a comet wont hit the hosting center and wipe out HZ in two months anyway, so I can't promise that your shiny new pre-paid Ancient account wont be null and void then, but I'm pretty confident that it wont get turned off due to shady operations on Virtrium's part.

Although, even with all that said, I'm not going to tell you to stop being a skeptic, or to just "trust those guys." That's a decision only you can make, and anyone trying to convince you of anything else does not have your best interests in mind.

People will make their own decisions, and should be allowed to make their own decisions without anyone else interfering, or trying to "offer advice", especially if that advice is not solicited in the first place.

~ Henry

[Vermithraxx]

Fyren,

Although, even with all that said, I'm not going to tell you to stop being a skeptic, or to just "trust those guys." That's a decision only you can make, and anyone trying to convince you of anything else does not have your best interests in mind.

People will make their own decisions, and should be allowed to make their own decisions without anyone else interfering, or trying to "offer advice", especially if that advice is not solicited in the first place.

~ Henry

Actually, this *is* specifically a feedback thread. They asked, we answered (which is the only reason I've bothered piping up myself.)

Granted, we've derailed a bit... perhaps this thread has reached its useful life span, but they DO want to get a finger on the community's pulse... and I think we have a fair number (10 pages) of samples, lol.

[Henry Redacre]

Actually, this *is* specifically a feedback thread. They asked, we answered

You bet. I wasn't saying that anyone should stop posting, nor was I attempting to invalidate anyone's feedback.

I guess I was just trying to politely disagree with Fyren, but for my own reasons. And since those reasons are my own, it wouldn't be fair for me to try and force those reasons on anyone else. So in my book, it's perfectly fine for Fyren to be skeptical, just as it's perfectly fine for me to cordially disagree for different reasons.

So, by all means, keep the feedback coming in!

~ Henry

[Fyrentennimara]

Well, my was my feedback, or another extension of it anyway. I think it's highly suspicious of a new company to come in, two weeks after sale(roughly)and immediately start talking about more money. That seems rather fishy to me. Not only are they talking about more money, but they're also talking about hacking up the subscription options and excluding a certain amount of the player base from certain parts of the game based on MONEY. That's my feedback.

The options they came up with, the only one that was worth anything at all was the Gifted subscription for $12.95/mo. Why? Because that's what we already have. But they're talking now about subscriptions that reward people who have more money than others by giving them in game items to reward them for throwing more money at them. The rest of their options, suck. Sorry, but they suck.

"I'm sorry you're a person who has real life bills and can't afford to really throw $15/mo at us, we'll let you log in, but you can't own anything, you're lesser."

That's the way I interpret that. These are the reasons that I'm suspicious of them now. They came in, poked around a bit, and immediately started the money discussions. And they were vague, which made people go off the deep end thinking that all kinds of armegeddon(sp?) was coming our way. I don't like it.

But that being said, my immediate concern is what I have in game currently, and not putting myself in the poor house to keep it. It is a large(and I'm not exaggerating) lair. I've had it since the lair auctions. I also have a substantial house payment every month and games are a luxury in my home. I can't really afford $15/mo for Hz. And quite honestly, Hz isn't worth $15/mo in it's current state. I'm not the first person to say this, and I won't be the last. They asked for this feedback.

I don't care if people agree with me, and I don't care if they're upset that I don't agree with them. I will keep posting about this until they announce decisions and hope that they listen, and if they don't, I will move on. I've done it before, and I can do it again, although, I'd like to stay with Hz. I will respect other's optimism, but I will not share it. I will respect their views, but I won't share them. I don't know these people, yet, and I don't trust them yet. As I said, I want some "feedback" from them stating that we will get to keep what we currently own. That they will not come in and yank things from us, make us start over, give our plots to someone with a bigger bank account. I also would rather they didn't hike the prices up, people who pay $15/mo for games like WoW and LOTRO and Vanguard, aren't going to come back HERE and pay that kind of money. There's much work to be done before that can, or should ever happen.

[Tryagain]

Lunhilde you are comprehending that this is a game right ? In that taking a risk is fine in real life. But over a game ????

A game people play in their spare time for enjoyment. Fyren brings up a good point. Vitrium should have waited for a few months before talking about price rate adjustments. they put way to much stock in an old reputation that has no credibility. They need to re earn the trust and rebuild the reputation.

Might have been wise that they actually do a bit of work on the game first and garnered some playerbase trust in Vitrium LLC. Those prepaid plans they are talking about entails some hefty bucks for a game that has issues. So yeah life is a risk and for some $260 is nothing. But it sure would suck to get burned over an entertainment and relaxation object dontcha think ?

Now I do not believe there is anything sneaky going on but I found it odd as well that they started talking about a price increase after being on the job for less than 2 weeks. I might have gotten billing back up and perhaps suspended 6 and 12 month prepays for the time being.

I certainly wouldn't slap any money down on a prepaid account till Vitrium did a heck of a lot more with the game. But hey thats just me.

[Lunhilde]

Lunhilde you are comprehending that this is a game right ? In that taking a risk is fine in real life. But over a game ????

A game people play in their spare time for enjoyment. Fyren brings up a good point. Vitrium should have waited for a few months before talking about price rate adjustments. they put way to much stock in an old reputation that has no credibility. They need to re earn the trust and rebuild the reputation.

Might have been wise that they actually do a bit of work on the game first and garnered some playerbase trust in Vitrium LLC. Those prepaid plans they are talking about entails some hefty bucks for a game that has issues. So yeah life is a risk and for some $260 is nothing. But it sure would suck to get burned over an entertainment and relaxation object dontcha think ?

Now I do not believe there is anything sneaky going on but I found it odd as well that they started talking about a price increase after being on the job for less than 2 weeks. I might have gotten billing back up and perhaps suspended 6 and 12 month prepays for the time being.

I certainly wouldn't slap any money down on a prepaid account till Vitrium did a heck of a lot more with the game. But hey thats just me.

Alright. Number one - please do not question my intelligence. I don't like the tone of your first statement at all. People take risks over 'games' all the time. Playing football. Going skydiving. Horseback riding. All of these things could get you killed, people will do them anyway. The worst that happens to me if this goes down the toilet is that I spent 14.95 a month on something that eventually went away. Oh well. Food goes away when I eat it too, it makes me happy, but then it too goes down the toilet.

Well, yah, no duh, it's a game. I never said I'd be paying 260 bucks either. I said I'd pay 14.95 a month. That's a big difference.

Entertainment is all we have left after working, sleeping, and eating. Why not be entertained? I could go spend my money in a dance club, I could go watch a movie.. ah yes, the old 'other things I could do' with my money discussion, and then say 'but you could spend 14.95 for a better game..' Well, I do, I play EQ2. After the chores are done and the money is in the bank, we play at whatever interest us, that's what the human organism does. If that play depends on someone or something else, we support it to try and keep it around. Maybe it is because I have suffered a lot that I like to stay 'happy' by doing things that make me happy, and I've leared that I'd rather take the risk then have my world shrink to a tiny safe little 'bubble' of nothing 'dangerous'.

For me an investment of 14.95 a month isnt a big deal for something that keeps me entertained, and there may be 'better' out there but I'm not happy with it, crafting sucks everywhere else, it's all copycat and not even improved on, if anything, it sucks more.

So yah, I may speak loftily, but the truth of the matter is, again. I know some of these guys who are there. I trust them enough to give them 14.95 a month. That is the point of all of this.

[Yulesh]

I haven't taken the time to read through all the posts (10 pages? *blinks*), so please excuse me if I repeat anyone else's questions/comments. I did catch the opening post prior to being edited.

My play style is definitely more of a crafter than a hunter. My main account has 4 subs tied together (1 at monthly, 2 at 3 months, and 1 yearly). I have 3 plots and 1 lair with these subs (all in the same guild area). I wouldn't have a problem with a $2 increase in the monthly subscription, at the current limitations (with ~$4 increase for 3-month, and ~$12 increase in yearly). With the current gaming market, I believe the monthly sub fee needs to be capped at $14.95; this isn't the most developed game on the market ( I'm not pointing fingers, just making an honest observation), but we that play it want it to become the game it was meant to be.

I like the idea of the "ancient" subscriptions, with special plots. However, I think that this option should be available to anyone willing to pay for it; I'm not a programmer so I don't know how adding a special plot with every new "ancient" account/upgrade would work. (Maybe a special port destination for characters on this account, like a "Home" ? Maybe have tokens that allow others to port to your home, similar to the Peak of Storms tokens? Again, not a programmer here. *offers Tylenol to any programmers who just got headaches*)

Thanks for asking for our input on this. Think I'll go play now

Yul

[Fyrentennimara]

Lunhilde, please do not take this the wrong way, because I completely respect your views here. But, I simply must say something about this post. $14.95 might not be a big expenditure to you, but to me, it is. $12.95 is pushing it for me, right now. And for them to come in and immediately talk about a price hike? It makes me want to....not give them my money. But what are my options here? I love Hz. I have invested time and money in Hz. But I can't opt for a lesser payment a month, which would greatly help me, why? Because I'm a lesser human being for that, and would be excluded from experiencing parts of the game....because of my wallet.

I'm happy for all of those folks who can afford the rate hike. I can't. Not really, anyway. And a lot of those families who play? You know, the ones with 5 and 6 subs on their accnt? Where are they now? In this new rate structure.....they're out in the cold, that's where. It's sickening. It's sickening to me to see money grubbing. And that's what I see.

But, seriously, I'm glad people are finding the light at the end of the tunnel on this one, I sure wish I could share that sentiment.

[Lunhilde]

Well ultimately, if it seems that enough of the community can't handle a raise in charge, I would hope they didn't do it. I don't want anyone to stop playing, and I don't have enough to pay the extra two bucks for everyone who can't, so if it is better for the game's survival of subs to keep it as it is right now, by all means this is what should be done.

I've been poor before, dont get me wrong. Sabast and I ate rice and pasta for a long long time. I know what it is like to struggle to make ends meet and put food on the table and still try to have a sembance of a life and a pastime that can bring some ejoyment and peace to an otherwise bleak situation. I am not saying 'screw you who don't have enough'. I did not comment at all on the larger sub options because I will never ever have one. I have about enough pre cash for 3 'subs' a month. Right now I have one at EQ and one at WoW that I pay for for Lillyjo and myself. This leaves one spot open, and I'm willing to make that HZ.

Heck, if I was a millionaire, I'd have bought HZ myself. :P

[Tryagain]

didn't question your intelligence Lunhilde

What I did question was your veiled assertion that anyone who questions the idea to be the ones lacking in original thought. If anything it was you questioning the intelligence factor of many who have replied to this thread. Remember it is irrelevent to just about everyone your past associations with this game. So yeah $2 a month is litterally nothing. But given the games shady past one thing Vitrium has to do as well is break off the shackles of the past. Unfortunately it is a burden that they to must bear and its a burden they must through action deal away with. its a fact that won't go away.

Action speaks louder than words. Right now they have proved they can be more competant than EI which isn't hard to do. They got a bit more work to do yet.


However yeah I do appreciate the honest tone they have taken. So I would say they are off to a good start. I just question this subject being brought up so early. Not that it wouldn't have to be brought up eventually I am sure.

[Lunhilde]

.. what?

Asking me if I comprehend that something is a game is a question of my intelligence.

I don't veil assertions. If I want to call someone stupid, I do it. You can read etween lines all you like to make yourself happy but do not put words in my mouth.

I am voicing my opinions. Period.

[Abraxes]

In my opinion, there shouldn't be different types of "special" subscription plans, I think there should be 1 kind of sub. plan, and you can buy as many as you want, for your 1 account, just the way it used to be. As far as the price increase, I don't think that needs to go up, either. Just my two cents, I guess.

[Landowyn]

This thread is getting out of control. Posters are repeating the same things over and over or changing their views from page to page, seemingly willy nilly. We do not need this level of complication. Leave the accounts and subscriptions the way they are until there's a reason to pay more money.

I firmly believe you may be at risk of losing more subs than you gain if you continue in this manner. I used to pay $12.95 each for 4 subs. If you raise my prices without raising my expectations I doubt I'll sign up more than one sub.