Billing Feedback

[Amecha]

A BIG thank you for involving us in your decisions! It's a big thing to not only see that improvements are being made, but that our opinions are valued as well.

[Scaleth Drakescale]

Thank you Horizons CS for the update.. I'm glad to hear that all my extra characters won't be deleted. *whew*

[Lunhilde]

After seeing the updated reply.. okay, yah, I'd pay 14.95 a month.

Why?

Thank you for speaking to us like the human beings we are. Heck, thanks for BEING human. Seeing thoughtful statements in your post amendment like that actually explains the pros and cons of the money issues and sharing it with us instead of dead silence or, what used to be the favorite term around here, newspeak, is so immensely refreshing that I am giggling. I wasn't here for EI. I'm glad. Cause I likely wouldn't have made it through that keeping my sanity.

And thinking about the differences between a 'basic' and a 'gifted' or what is now standard, in a way it sort of encourages the community to support the 'basic' players. Makes sense now to my rattled brain; they'll log in, do quests, kill monsters, maybe craft, maybe not.

And I know there are issues with the engine that willl likely make it so that the subscription numbers can not grow exponentially for awhile, but a word of mouth, slow buildup would be safer for the game's programming (and finanical) stability, easier on the existing communities who would be the ones helping and crafting for new players, and also easier on you guys in regard to your sleep schedules and stresss levels. A little part of me says you are insane for doing this, but I ran a LARP, I know the insanity that wakes you up in the middle of the night to go check one last thing to make sure everything is going to work for the game, not to mention the sick determination that comes around when you realize you've put too much of yourself into something to let it go.

From someone who had to let their dream go, I'm proud of you guys.

[Theros Ironfeld]

You can keep honey coating the cost increase as much as you like
BUT " We're considering this change in the interest of making Horizons a better game " will get you crapcanned in the mmo press the world wide
sorry but I dont swallow that
brutal as i put it i wont pay it, it's as simple as that
I'm $400 U.S in the red from EI and Baker bailing on the game as it is and i aint the only one shafted by em
with thoughts like these ya have just lost me
Adios HZ

[Istaria CS]

We would like to make clear that we're considering changes. No changes have been made and we're still carefully listening to everyone's feedback. Horizons will move forward with updates to content and bug fixes. There's a team behind it that cares. That team is personally motivated to see it succeed and very importantly, we're listening to the community. The subscription changes are about trying to lower the basic entry pricing and for plot owning subscriptions, a possibility to escalate how quickly we can roll out content updates and fixes. Regardless of what changes we make to billing, players of Horizons are going to see a change for the better as we work to improve and expand, update by update.

Horizons Development Team

[Vermithraxx]

New feedback from me based on the update...

----
We are considering an increase in subscription prices for one reason: staff. If the majority of players who used to pay 12.95 pay 14.95 (a $2 per month increase) then we can bring on more people to the team. More staff allows us to get updates out the door quicker, or add more to an update. If we leave the current pricing structure, updates will occur at their current pace. We're considering this change in the interest of making Horizons a better game.

My best analogy here is corny, I admit... You're in a pool, drowning. Somebody notices and throws you...
1.) A rubber ducky
2.) A life preserver

At first, doesn't matter what you've been tossed, you'll grab it and use it however you can. Now, whether it will save you...

Now, me, I'm from AE days. I played all of 2004, up until EQ2 opened its gates. Since I don't know you guys from the Tulga times, more viewpoint is a bit more realistic (and/or less optimistic) than some of my fellow players.

That being said... what updates? In the interview, it was mentioned that an old patch was never done, that live was broekn in various ways (agro radious) etc... so where's the patch? Have you considered emergency maintenance just to get it live and show the players you can do it? (I know those T6 scalepacks on Blight are being DROOLED over by every dragon.)

(Made me laugh: " If we leave the current pricing structure, updates will occur at their current pace " Ummm, ok, as I understand it that means zero updates in the past year? Since that can't be right, what WOULD your update schedule be?)

Personally, I suggest leaving the pricing alone... SHOW us what you're capable of... and THEN talk to us about piricing when you've proven you CAN do updates.

i.e. Show us you're a life preserver and not a rubber ducky

A La Carte Features: This is a tough one. We want to provide flexibility, but at the same time we don't want to see a drop in revenue. If 25% of players have two subscriptions because they want to have two plots and we change the pricing so that an additional plot is half of a normal subscription, we just reduced the amount of money we bring in each month. That's bad for Horizons because it means we have less money to add people to the team. We love the flexibility of a la carte, but want to be careful. We are considering changes to subscriptions as a way to increase revenue so we can bump up the development staff. It would be a serious disservice to Horizons if our changes ended up dropping revenue.

Horizons Development Staff

Not to beat a horse, and I consider it stating the obvious... but by fixing the billing and keeping the pricing AS IS, you'll be garnering more money than EI ever did since they were letting everybody play for free.

FIX THINGS: Do a patch. ANYthing will be appreciated considering the game has been stagnant (and still is) for over a year, and word will get out... that will pull many of the old players in (most of whom are already back on Chaos shard, re-familiazing themselves with gameplay 'just in case', heh).

Main point is: ANY working plan is a revenue increase, and money you won't get otherwise. Don't discount Ala' carte if it can pull more people in, and you're counting chickens that wouldn't have hatched otherwise.

[Istaria CS]

All new customers will be able to partake in a trial period. Right now, the plan is to offer new accounts the ability to create a trial subscription. At the end of the trial period, they select either a Basic or Gifted Subscription.

Horizons Development Team

[Lunhilde]

Now, me, I'm from AE days. I played all of 2004, up until EQ2 opened its gates. Since I don't know you guys from the Tulga times, more viewpoint is a bit more realistic (and/or less optimistic) than some of my fellow players.

Me too I remember you though. Like I said in Marketplace it was like stepping back in time 2 years. I think that at least 2 of the original AE crew are there working, more are advising/consulting on the side if I'm remembering the rumor I heard correctly, hence me being here.

FIX THINGS: Do a patch. ANYthing will be appreciated considering the game has been stagnant (and still is) for over a year, and word will get out... that will pull many of the old players in (most of whom are already back on Chaos shard, re-familiazing themselves with gameplay 'just in case', heh).

Early deltas scare me if they're not ready, but I don't know when the Blight patch went in or etcetera. I do know that when there is a secure place for me to send digits to, I'm renewing, Sabast is renewing, and Lillyjo, who is jealous as all get out of me (poor thing is running Vista, can't get the game to run, I thought she was going to cry..) is going to be renewing, so that's 3 missing Chaosians, plus the more that logged in tonight for the first time in ages..

[Fratricide]

Trial Subscriptions:
Should be available and be between 15-30 days in length.. to allow a new player to get more immersed into the game Should also be Free. And only start after the character creation process and the person is able to login successfully into the game after that.

• 2 characters (1 dragon + 1 biped only)
• 5 Imperial consignment slots (50 global max)
• No plot purchasing
• Free for between 15 and 30 days... would imagine that would be determined by the staff... but if there is no purchase by the end of the trial period, all trial period characters and such deleted... of course.. tracking the email, or cc or whatever to ensure they don't just keep making trial accts over and over and over...

Basic Subscriptions:
I would feel that this lvl of commitment should encourage the basics of everything.

• 3 or so characters.. so you can play around with what you can play with...
• 10 Imperial consignment slots... (100 global max)
• Should be able to own a plot, but not larger then 30x30, or a guild community plot (but not the guild master plot).
• Personally, I would probably set the price between $7-$9

Gifted Subscription:
The current standard sub should be the same as is the Gifted sub... And while I completely understand the need for more cash, Also understand that some of us, who may want to have multiple plots, play concurrently, or whatever, just will not be willing (or cant afford it) to dish out the $30 a month to have 2 gifted subs... I have most recently had 2 paid subs (6 month) and 1 military sub... As such, I don't think that I could pay for the second paid sub as we're on a limited budget no matter how much I want to help out.

• 10 consignment slots (250 global)
• 5 character slots
• 1 concurrent login
• 1 standard or basic plot
• Keep the price as it stands. Perhaps with an option to bump to the $15 price tag for an extra 3 character slots.

Ancient Subscriptions:
Should have some extra benefits that the normal sub doesn't have. As it is basically 2x the price of a Gifted sub it should have at least the following.

• 20+ (I would probably consider 25 or so a good number) consignment slots per imperial consignor (No global max)
• 10+ (probably around 15 or so would be nice)
• 2+ concurrent logins (you could put it at 3 I'm sure, but that would be pushing it)
• 2 Standard plots or 1 Ancient Plot.
• Price... Take the price of 2 gifted subs.. and take like 5% off of it... should always get a better price for longer subs and for the bigger investment. Because the extra Fluff they will get IMHO is not necessarily worth the extra cash output.. Of course... if the Ancient Plots get added in in a manner as I suggest here, with both types of plots as one unit at the same location, perhaps that would encourage folks to purchase one at full perhaps + some of the gifted subs.
• an in game trivial gift... shoulder pet or something with mere collectability so those who "have" to have everything in game, can go and get the big sub... Perhaps a new gift available for every 6 months paid sub for the account... I know that kept some folks in SWG.
• Perhaps (if it wasn't too much trouble) these folks could make suggestions for minor world changes that would be put on the to do list (as long as it wouldn't affect gameplay or MOB movements etc. for aesthetics only).

Blight:
Blight characters do not count towards your total character count.

• Nice to hear.. does that count for blight plots as well??

Plot Types:
Personally I think there should be 3 types of plots.

• A basic plot, I remember like some of the older plots, probably changed now.. that were only residential in nature, that were quite smaller... these could be made available to those with basic accounts.. also... plots that are quite small in nature should also be Basic plots.. anything that is smaller then 30x30 or so...
• A standard plot: These would be a majority of the plots in the game world. Can be purchased by Gifted subscribers, and Ancient Subscribers. Should be all plots, except for those previously mentioned, and the Ancient plots.
• Ancient Plots: These plots would be abnormally large, should have some Lairs as well as some above ground ones. (should have enough for all Ancient Subscribers, though Those subscribers may have to create a dragon or biped to obtain one of these said plots. It would be interesting though to have that somewhat of a double plot... have a biped front pad area with a lair entrance someplace on the plot as well. Or a lair entrance in front with a biped plot on the upper ground surface of the lair area... that way the could get both types with only 1 plot. The plot should also have the ability to have a teleporter/pad added to it, with a link to perhaps a general guild area... or if their guild doesn't have a guild area, then to one of the "player towns".

Military Program: In the past, to participate in the military program you had to have one current paid sub... To me, it would be an interesting thing to provide the military sub in this manner...

• 1 paid basic you would get a free basic = 2 basic accounts
• 1 paid standard you would get a free basic = 1 standard + 1 basic
• 1 paid ancient you would get a free standard = 1 ancient + 1 standard

A La Carte Features: It would be quite nice to get A La Carte stuff... but that stuff should be stuff that would not be based on anything dealing with subscription levels. If you were to do something of this nature, you might want to sell FLUFF. Buy your Horizons Coffee mug... or Hat.. or T-shirt... etc... real world stuff for real world cash... If you wanted.. perhaps since some of those old quests are gone now... you can have folks buy the bat of the nerph... or a blade of rending... or several other misc old quest items that no longer exist except for in player collections. hehe.. you could sell Essence of Blight.. I'm sure that some folks would pay for that...

Just my thoughts..

[Kulamata]

It might be a good idea to modify the Message of the Day and/or the loading screen to direct players who don't normally come to the forums to this thread to make their feelings known.

[Dracana]

I'll be honest I'm not too crazy about even a $2 dollar increase given my limited funds at this time (student). Since I own a lair in the name of my guild and have more than three live characters I can't go for a basic subscription. In fact I'm worried that without some visible development of the game first, an increase my drive people away, some who have only returned and are still cautious. Especially given all the other, newer games that cost $12.95

Now if the player wants more I am definately in favor of an al la carte way of adding options to the account and increasing the monthly fee that way.

$2 for each additional character above 5

$5 for 10 more consignment slots

$5 for one additional concurrent login

$10 for each additional plot

That way you don't piss anyone off but you can still get more money as people need more stuff

[Vaz]

Characters: We will not delete characters - ever. If you have 20 characters and only 5 character slots, the most we would do is make the final 15 not playable. We'd propose that selection of characters for activating / deactivating would be based on character age, but we'd put together our plan and check with the community for feedback.

Would be best for the player to be able to somehow select which characters would remain active. Perhaps there could be a way to set each character's priority, like this:

1 - John Johnson
2 - Jes Jalak
3 - Joran Jotham
4 - Jerix Jansa
5 - Jylanea Jax

The priority list could be set or changed at any time.

The reason being that the oldest characters are not necessarily the ones being actively played. For example, in another game, I have a character almost as old as my account that was my main for two years, but recently I created a new character and am playing that as main. I also have some other older characters that I'm not actively playing, in favor of that newest character.

[Steelclaw]

Buh. I took so long typing this up that there were some points addressed in the mean time.
*delete delete mumble edit edit mumble mumble*

As for paying more, I've thought about it and I'm not sure if it's a good idea right now. Yes, there are some players who want to give more money. Okay, let them get another sub, throw some coin in a tip jar, or buy marked-up real-world items. I think it is unfair to expect everybody to be as generous. As already pointed out, some can not afford it. Those who can not afford the subscription (be it a primary or additional) will not pay. The question is, will the benefits be greater because the pricing is more appealing to a larger audience, or because there are enough paying at a higher price? (That is, breadth vs. depth.)

What about the a la carte options? (Hey, did anyone there see my post about "feature slots"?) It is true that by reducing the cost of a plot, for example, Vi will miss out on half of the profits -- assuming that the person who bought the extra plot would have bought one anyway. They are also neglecting the number of people who would buy a second plot because it is now accessible to them. As an example, let's call the people who will buy a second sub for a plot type 'A' peole. Let's call the people who will only buy an a la carte plot for half the cost of a sub type 'B' people. If there are at least as many type A people as type B people, Vi will have broken even. If there are twice as many type B people as type A people, they are now ahead by 150%. How do you tell the difference between type A and type B people? Good question.

How would I do it? First, forget about long-term subscriptions for now. This prevents me from being locked in to a possibly losing commitment. Try a very liberal plan first, say offering something resembling my versions of the subscriptions. If the revenue is high enough to meet the "Hey, we can hire more people!" level, leave it, it's working! If it's below the "$12.95/month" anticipated revenue, bail. Go back to the $12.95/month, revisit it when there are more players. If it's in between... try the $14.95/mo+$8.95/mo plan. Fall back if that doesn't work. Once things look like they are stable, then consider the long-term subscriptions.

Regarding plots and items, I do not like the idea of tiering plots with respect to subscription fees, nor do I particularly care for essentially selling items to players for real money, and I especially detest the idea of giving players balance-altering items for real money. By doing so, there a direct link is established between one's real-world wealth and their character's in-game wealth. That detracts from the escapist nature of HZ. Furthermore by introducing a visible distinction between rich and poor players, you enable and 'legitimize' animosity between the two groups. If you want to reward the player for signing up for a big subscription, give them a mug, a calendar, wall-scroll... something that is real-world and not part of the in-game world.

[Myrra]

First of all, i want to state i'm very glad to see Horizons is in other ( and i hope more well-able ) hands, and to see you communicate

I'm a former player of Unity and only stopped because my chars vanished...

I'm also in contact with several former unity players who'd gladly come back if they had their chars.

Myself would like to come back too but, if i can agree with a character transfer to a new shard, i'd prefere to keep my plot ( and long months spend to build it ) so i guess the best way would be a new shard.

about subscriptions now:

I had 3 accounts on unity, playing 2 at a times, for plot owning and the 2 concurrent access, so i'd prefere a "basic account with additional features" approach. If not i think i'd go for two standard ( renamed "gifted" ) ones, but if you go on making the fee higher, please give the players something in exchange directly ( lets say some more consignement space or some vault space ), then keep your promises about upgrades.

But before seeking more funds by higher fees, i'd suggest to:

1. make billing work so players who play pay for it
2. make billing work with more options ( like paypal ) so people without credit card can pay and play
3. attract back former unity players by giving them their toons back

do this and, without fee increase, you'll get a lot more money and then, after you've shown players the game is starting again and they didn't hope in vain, then an increase will be fair, but not over the fees of other mmorpgs.

If you seek advantages or additional features for an account, i'm no hunter so i'll only speak for crafters but i'd suggest to offer more consignment ( crafters need to sell what they do ), more storage in vault or unique storage items.

specific questions now :

• if you change the subscription method, what about people having multiple accounts? will you merge them ?
• will it be possible to upgrade?
• will it be possible to downgrade, and in that case, what will happen to characters or plots in excess ?
• will you make "savings plans" for accounts having more chars, more logins or more plots ( family accounts mainly )

[Vaz]

Speaking of RL items, has there ever been a giftshop (i.e. something on CafePress) for Horizons-branded/themed items? There should be. Might be a nice little source of additional income.

[C`gan]

Alright, here goes. I've actually read all the posts before wanting to post, as well as the update. I think you're listening to what we the player base are saying. And, were it not for this touch of food poisoning and not being in the same state, I'd want to HUG the lot of you for giving us hope again and for coming back to us!

I'm going to preclude everything I say by these facts: Tagath and I (and for the record, I've been RPing them as separate people so long I can't stop, even though it's just me!) originally started out on one account and second subs were not available; when additional subs were available we (I) jumped at the idea; Tagath's sub was $65.70 (6 month); C`gan's sub was $35.85 (3 month); we (I) have 9 characters, the majority of which are extra storage, including 1 Blight copy of C`gan.

When EI took over, the second sub was lost. So, in the course of you gaining back this wonderful game, all I'm asking for is the ability to have back the ability to have a SECURE second subscription (or third, or fourth, etc.). I know members of my guild were strong in additional subs. Chef at one point had 10. Between Klar and Imayo, they had 5 subs (possibly more). Heather had 5 subs. Denrath had 2. Joal had I think 4. Now, the vast majority of this income was lost because EI could no longer do additional subs. Each subscription brought in anywhere from $12.95 (monthly) to $65.70 (6 months) and for a couple yearly ones, I think they were $119.40 (though I could be wrong on that number). I was even hoping to have the ability to up the second sub to a $65.70 as well. And those are just some of my guildmates. We lost people from overbilling (Tamaracaran and Leonea were charged for 7 subs one month instead of the 3 they actually had), lack of support, lack of communication, and lack of updates. Exploits were not fixed. All in all, the game came to a standstill when Baker yanked the rug out from under you to sell to PME/EI/NGW. Now you're back and are considering different pricing for the game. Let's look at some of the responses here.

A la carte pricing: Difficult to do at best. This requires coding for checking up on the active subscriptions and what happens if a feature is dropped? What do you do to undo the additions you got? I find this one impractical (appealing, but impractical).

On your breakdown of subscriptions and what's actually being paid for, I have a really tough time justifying these. Basic is only 3 characters and no plot? That cuts out a major portion of the game. Oh, sure, you can add subs or upgrade, but still that doesn't make sense to me. Also, why is it the only auto-renewing type? I for one have a tough time remembering bills and due dates because I have so much other stuff going on. Even my ISP could tell you over half of my monthly payments to them are a day late because I get the reminder that my account came due yesterday! If auto-renew isn't a problem at the basic level, why should it be left out at higher levels?

Though the Gifted version is where I'd end up being strictly to maintain the subs I have, I see it lacking in that there's no discount for longer time periods. Yes, I know you're looking at a cashflow issue here, but which is better: to increase the number of subscriptions per segment (3 months or more) at, say $1 less per length of segment as it is now, or to possibly lose new subscriptions because of a lack of discount? I'm speaking of the new-player market out there who psychologically love to see discounts. Granted, for those of us who are hard-core, long-term, dedicated Horizons players, we'll likely deem whichever account structure fits our account and stick with that.

Now as for this ancient subscription, you're seeking feedback on it. #1 WAY overpriced. Unfeasible for the vast majority of players out there. That dollar amount, even for a yearly account just doesn't fit. In order to make such an amount work, you'd be looking at the equivalent of what is currently 2 yearly accounts + and additional 2 months. But even at that, I don't have nearly $259.95 to throw at any game in one lump sum. To make it appealing and balance it out for someone like me, that'd take 15 characters, 3 plots, 150 consignment slots (10 per character) per racial town consigner. THEN it would be a bargain.

Someone made mention of a tip jar. I've seen this in several locations. If you are including PayPal in your acceptible billing options, you may wish to also consider a tip jar on the login website. That way people who feel you're doing a good job could tip you for your effort. Something else that would be a good consideration for an incoming cashflow would be a real-life storefront, like what CafePress does. You need money, we want stuff. T-shirts, coffee mugs, hats, notepads, things we can show off to say "this is our game". I don't know exactly how much CafePress skims off for production of items, but I do know if it weren't profitable for everyone involved, CafePress wouldn't be in business.

One of the things this game has always lacked was marketing. Get the name out, get people to see something eye-catching. Granted, I work in the printing industry. I know taking ads out in magazines is expensive, particulary 4-color process full pagers. But, that is something seriously needed to make this game grow in subscriptions. By all accounts, this game has never actually been marketed well to the public. Word-of-mouth works, but only so much when there are only so many mouths to spread it. And be honest with the prospective player base you market to. Give them the fees and the breakdowns and the military recognition program. Let them see that you're in this confidently. So many times I've seen businesses do advertising that is bland, mediocre, and even in some cases apologetic they're in business (I'm reminded of one of my customers who does a 2-color business card, solid color on the back side with the company name reversed out, but on the front, everything is in 6 point type, unbold, and takes up maybe 1/2" square of ink coverage). Show off screenshots, show off the races, play up the dragon, crafting, community, and multiclass aspects. Those are the game's strong points. Then while you're getting the subscriptions returning and new ones coming in for trials and/or starter subscriptions, you can worry about adding more staff, bigger upgrades, etc.

I, for one, would like you very much to succeed. I'd love to see this game outshine WoW in subscriptions (9 million and counting). But in order to get there, it's an uphill climb and I hope you keep a firm footing with the start of it: getting all our subscriptions back to paying.

[Chaldor Itieles]

just my 2cents

use the different plot dimension in the subscription model to make those more attractive.
f.ex the "basic sub" can only have a small plot (like Fratricide already said).
also think about an new subscription variant for those casual player that only have 4-8h a week time to play:
Give them a subscription where they only pay the time they are online. (the time fee has to be adjusted so that it would become more expensive than a standard subscription if this casual player is more than 10-15h a week online).

Also I have some fears about the consignment slots... couldnt read this oit totally atm.
10slots:
- are they counting for one consi or for all over the world together
- keep in mind that some crafters are well needed in the community atm like f.ex Alchemists and their bolster potions.
give plotkeepers with their own coni there the ability to store more items there.
- 15 slots per "sphere"
- or 50 slots in one shpere
(the owner hast to set this when activating the consi. By this there might be specialized consis on the player plots in the future)

[Ashuran]

Thank you for the continued communication... to say I am appreciative would be an understatement. In turn I hope my critical comments aren't taken as 'unfriendly', I am merely to the best of my ability, being frank.

As for the Ancient subscription, I suggest the following:

Make it the equivalent of 2 Gifted accounts stacked together, for convenience. Then throw in some added "fluff" stuff... perhaps a new thing every time the subscription is renewed or once a month... shoulder buddies, fun costumes for characters (like the fall festival ones, but that require no additional items to use), special emblems and such. Things that are just for fun, and give no statistical advantage. Possibly special mention of your character's exploits by the Town Crier npc's or the like. Added gifts as the subscription is maintained will hopefully keep some people interested in paying for it.

[Kumu Honua]

In this thread I did not say " Why pay $12.95 for a game that has been passed hands so often."

I suggested that Horizons was passed around like an "inexpensive lady of the night who happens to do drugs."

Looks like lessons were NOT learned from the past and instead are just being put right back into place.

Good luck rising from the ashes, you will not get my money.

[TelShyia]

Okay, ihave some sleep, not to tired from gathering a gazillion gems for tricuts, and have had a bit of time to think about this.
14.95...okay, but, BUT, that is my limit until we can see some actual improvement. Yes, you do have to eat, and I can certainly understand your wanting to recoup some of your investment right off the bat.
But, BUT, lets see some immeadiate changes;
1. De-activate all those that have been playing for free on my dime while I have been paying/playing all this time.
2. Lower Nadia's prices! - the changes that were implemented to preclude the conf changes (which has never been done, and I dont think a good idea) are bad for the game and new players.
3. Show us that you can add some new content, as a dragon, and an Expert DLSH and Master Crafter, I would LOVE to see level 100 disks for dragons and bi-peds!
4. Un-nerf the fly speed on flying disks. Cutting my fly speed to 1/3 is a bit much.
These 4 simple changes woudl go along way for alot of us to feel comfortable in the price hike.

Telshyia - Ancient Chaos Dragon