Billing Feedback

[Zinnia]

I had to quit another game,because it was about 15 dollars a month,I could'nt really afford it,though I would like if the basic or normal,did come with atleast one plot,but the current prices look pretty good to me.

[redwulfen]

Have to agree with most everyone so far that the basic should include consignment slots. Raisty's breakdown looks very doable to me. For background my wife and I have been playing (and paying) for two accounts to this game since launch even through the dark times. I am a much more casual (i.e. part-time) player than my wife whose dragon is preparing for AROP.

Drelohan

[Paladin]

Here are a few things to think about before you go and change the billing.

In the saturated MMO market of today, what is Horizons really worth? Does Horizons have what it takes to justify a $14.95 monthly fee? Does it have what it takes to justify a 12.95 monthly fee? To the few people that visit this forum and still play sure, but the masses have spoken and clearly the answer is NO.

I understand that you need the funds to develop the game and keep it a float but you can't charge filet mignon prices for chop steak.


Now you can up the prices and milk every dime that you can from the faithful with very little hope to draw in any new players or ones that would like to return, or you can lower the monthly fee across the board to somewhere around $7.95 a month and have a much greater chance at retaining more subs.


You need to understand that Horizons is an old, out dated, buggy, drama filled and very unstable MMO that simple won't bring the money of the top contenders in the market today.


I understand some of you may find these words unpleasant, but the subscription numbers don't lie.

[AA0]

I have to say that the consignment numbers are far too low considering the amount of junk you can rack up in this game. A basic sub having none is simply not acceptable, under no circumstances should that happen. 10 is very low for a standard sub, when you factor in NT help, and general selling of items.. you can fill up that much in a couple minutes of combat.
You need to allow room for market type players, even though hz's economy sucks.

I'm gonna say breaking the industry standard of anything over 14.95/month is just foolish. You have an aging game that can not demand top dollar but you are suggesting top dollar then some. Think about that

[Gegis]

I have a few questions, my main concern is the plots and characters, I have 5 characers plus 3 on blight, I can stand to get rid of mabye one at the most, and my plot, which i consider a gift from my guild which was given and built by them. I don't want to loose that. Also looking out for my friends, Bryagh who has been having many financial issues holds the guild lair of Aedan for The Old Code. So will having ownership of that lair increase his subscription, what is a standard plot considered? If so will he loose it, I know he worked off his tail on his own most of the time to get 10-15g to win the bid of aedan. I don't want him to loose it after all he does. I personally wouldn't mind paying 15ish, but what about the ones that obtained the holiday prices? Will I loose my $26.95 per 3 months disappear?

[Delight]

Two things I have wanted:

1) The ability to have 2 plots/lairs
2) Be able to try all the races

With that said I think a 3 tier system would be good. Too many options can become diffulct to manage and confusing for new players. It would be nice if as you go up in tier you were granted 2-3 more characters. As an Ancient Lunus dragon I can't see myself with a shoulder pet, although one of my biped alts might enjoy it - would this pet grant abilities/gifts/special talents or just be decoration?

The issue of 2 plots/lairs came about for me because I had to create an alt to buy our guild community thus having a playable char that has no storage, machines, or choices in layout belonging solely to that char. It is "stuck" using the vault space alotted to it and cannot "specialize" in a craft as it cannot create a work center devoted to that craft, as others can, being locked into owning the guild house. It would be a great boon to be allowed to have a space added to the guild communities for the plot owner to call his/her/its own.

As others have already posted it would be a disservice to this wonderful game to charge more than the mmo's do, also, the military program is something worth keeping.

Last words (I promise). Keep the price fair with market, at each level allow 2-3 more chars (so those paying a huge annual fee if you go that way can play ALL the races), keep the military program, allow the community plot owner some place to build things to call their own, and pets are cute but useful pets are an asset.

It is a "delight" to have people listen to us again!

[Arzel Rashemi]

Can I have some clarity on that 'comes with a standard plot' Does that mean you automatically get a plot with the account, or that you have the ability to obtain a plot by buying one in game as per normal?

If you want it blunt, I do not like this idea. My view, keep it as it is, and always has been, but open options for things such as concurrent logins and multiple plots, ect. I could see paying an extra fee for these things and likely would do so. Heck I could even see charging for things such as character transfers between shards (not including blight) But if keeping the account subscriptions as they are now means hiking the price a couple dollars I don't mind that either because it happens. Just keep in mind of your European player base. That VAT is a very nasty thing.

Me, being on a yearly subscription, can't see paying more than what I already am now, for what I am getting. If you really want to add in elite accounts and get me to shell out over $250.00, then it would be appreciated by making it a lifetime subcription as certain other games have. And if you want to charge me seperately for the extra log ins, and plots if I choose to get them, go right ahead.

[Tryagain]

guys.... and gals ?

anyway

the $9.95 account is pretty useless. You wouldn't be able to really play HZ as its meant to be played with that account. So then you bump up to a possible max of $19.95 a month ?

If I were a new player and had never played HZ before and I saw a price tag of $19.95 a month I would expect the game to be prime. They will only be disappointed in what they get at this time with that kind of price tag. Now the difference between $12.95 and $19.95 a month isn't that much. Most people won't care certainly many here won't. But human beings base their expectations of a product from the price tag they pay for it. Can HZ pass the litmus test in a market where the going rate is $14.95 a month for titles that are just as fun and plentiful abound ? Thats the question that needs to be answered.

At the very outside bumping the $12.95 account to $14.95 is your best bet. Add options and alternatives for creating a 2nd account or a 2nd concurrent login. But do not mess with the base pricing much. You are just asking for trouble.

[Scaleth Drakescale]

Personally, I would much rather have more than 5 character slots for a gifted account... I use a lot of different characters for role play, different shards, etc etc. I would get something better, like an ancient account, but I don't have the money to do that =/


EDIT: Ugh, sorry for that last post up there >.-.<

[Fyrentennimara]

Hello there. My feedback is as follows. In my opinion, if it isn't broken, don't fix it. We alreayd pay(in most cases) 12.95 a month and we already get a plot. Some of us can not afford a $20 a month subscription just to keep the plots we already have, and I'd be a very upset dragon if I lost my lair because I only wanted to pay $9.95. There's no reason to short change someone based on how much money they give you. You would be leaving people out on plot ownership and that's just not right in my opinion. Also, character slots should be universal, and NOT depend on how much money we give you.

Decide on a character slot number and offer it to EVERYONE. Plots should be offered to EVERYONE. So. I vote for $12.95-$14.95/mo. basic. And Ancient could stay the same minus all the goofy character slot, plot ownership parts. Those should be universal.


I wont comment on the consignment part because I can't even believe I read that, yet.

[lightning claw]

Cs horizons First off thank you for trying to revive horizons .
how ever i would not mess with the billing system i have many toons on my one account and i do not wish to pay more than 12.95 for them i have payed 12.95 from the first time i logged on don't make me log off . as for the plot thing i think thats a bad idea :thumbs down : for that one i think u may want to rethink the billing system a bit

[Raptress]

Glad to see this game may finally be coming back. :P
That said..

The basic account is -too- basic. It needs consignment slots. And I would think you'd give it the ability to own a small, basic plot as built housing is a moderately big part of this game's draw. I think the reduced character slots are fine, as it -is- basic, and that means it's more encouragement to pay the higher price if the player likes the game enough to have more than three characters.

The Gifted level account looks pretty good, but I'm not sure what standard plot means. I think at Gifted level and higher, one should have the ability to own any plot they want, if standard implies a restriction of any sort. Perhaps more consignment slots, and relegate 10 (maaaybe 5) to basic level. As for price, you simply cannot charge over 15 dollars. 15 is about maximum sub cost for any game, and Horizons simply isn't polished enough to warrant any higher.

Now Ancient is where I have the most dispute with pricing. 30 dollars is way too high for way too little. I think you can get away with 20 (*maybe* 25-30 if it has 2 plots), but it still needs substantially more perks than what is listed. Perhaps give those elite players 2 plots..that will encourage those who want a biped plot as well as a lair to spend the extra cash, this would also justify a price close to 2 gifted subs. Other than that, 7 or 8 character slots seems fair, as well as at least double the consignment as a gifted sub. I think one concurrent login is all one really needs, but maybe offer two. Of course, offer as many cosmetic perks as possible. People tend to like showing off when they pay a higher price, so that sort of thing is always good. Make absolutely sure you give perks that can be used with biped characters as well as dragons. Perhaps you could offer dragons special dress scales that show up on their character and bipeds special clothing (along with the shoulder buddy of course). My point is if you want to charge that much it -really- has to be worth it.

[Raisty]

I think one concurrent login is all one really needs, but maybe offer two.

Well I normally have two chars logged into the game at the same time and I know others play with their family and need to have more then one concurrent login. So 2 logins will help people greatly in the ancient subs.

[Koragan]

Just a thought, if you go ahead with the Basic sub, maybe let the sub get a guild plot, not the master, but one of the others.

[Veya]

My main issue is the lack of character slots. I'd have to kill off alot of my characters to play.

[Fyrentennimara]

Now that I've had a bit more time to digest this, I've got a couple more things I want to say.

I don't think you're going to attract older players back to the game if you talk about raising the price, right now. This game is on the ropes, it's only as good as a paid beta, and that's like putting the final nail in the coffin and grabbing a hammer. But, that being said.....you're definitely not going to attract players back by telling them that they'll pay MORE per month than they pay now for:

LOTRO
WoW
EQ2
EQ
UO
EVE

or whatever else is out there. $20/mo.? Just no. And telling them that unless they give you more $$ they get no plot, or have their hijacked? Bzzzt.

And, in talking to my husband about this, we would have to call it good and cut out losses and finally leave for good if either of those things were to happen. No, it's not like losing 2 players is going to break it, but I'm sure we aren't alone.

1. We don't trust you yet.
2. We don't know you yet.
3. Much heartache has transpired in the last 14 months, and we don't want to get our hopes up only to be highly disappoiinted.

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

I agree with everyone else in that consignment slots are necessity. Even limiting them to something like 5 per account seems harsh to me. It is integral to the future of the game that consigners in popular regions be well-stocked. New crafters are going to start out listing everything they make on a consigner in hopes of getting a little extra coin, and when they first hit the consignment limit they haven't been playing long enough to feel the extra money for 10 consignment slots is worth it. One of the hardest parts of learning the game is knowing what will sell on a consigner, and without the ability to experiment and make mistakes they will only become more frustrated or worse yet consider the pawnbroker the best source of income when crafting.

Also, I think the real money comes from having the option to add something to your sub for what seems like a small fee. I think I remember reading a post where Horizons CS mentioned the solution could let you add components Ã** la carte like extra plots, consigner slots, logins, etc. The biggest downside I can see would be losing the players who buy several full subscriptions for only one added feature. No clue on whether the influx of new people adding

As for the rest...

In my mind I think you can break up most Horizons subscribers into a few, discrete demographics: New players testing the waters, casual to semi-casual players that are already hooked, hard-core players who want the "complete experience," income-constrained players, and families/groups of 2-3 people who play together. Each subscription option should allow these groups to tailor their sub(s) to how they play, and hopefully feel like they aren't getting screwed.

Basic Subscription Thoughts

When I started playing EQ2 for who knows why, I was hit by all kinds of options that I could add to my account. I barely knew what half of the features were and gave even less of a ******** about paying for them. If someone is coming out of the trial (if it still exists) and wants to keep playing but isn't decided they will probably go with the cheapest option available that doesn't sound like it's taking away half the game. I strongly agree with the idea of introducing a "basic" membership that cuts out a major feature that is unessential to the newbie experience. Non-instanced plots are a big selling point and a big part of the elder gameplay, but most new players I meet aren't immediately interested in the level of commitment required for plots.

I would hope that the basic sub would do a lot to reduce attrition after a trial ends. Having what looks like a much cheaper alternative to "getting started" in the game compared to other MMOs could be a big help to getting players to stick. Also, once those players reach a point where they want to continue subscribing, it isn't a major financial leap to upgrade to a full subscription and try out land ownership.

Gifted Subscription Thoughts

To be blunt, I can't see people accepting having to pay over 15 bucks for what was once $12.95. Fifteen bucks is the definitive standard for most MMO subscriptions, and charging more than this for a "complete" subscription would immediately cause people to question why they have to pay more for a game that to me should not attempt to compare itself to the major MMO offerings.

I can justify increasing the price to $13.95 due to having real development for a change, but I still think there are better ways to increase cash flow without gouging plot owners. It makes sense to cut plots from an entry-level subscription, but a majority of the returning players are going to want this subscription. People don't want to feel like they are paying mainstream prices for a game that fits much better in an alternative, niche market.

while addingFinally, I'd bump up the consigners slots to twice the basic level for free. In the very least you'd have some small justification for the price increase more consignment to the game.

À la Carte?

If the new billing system can handle adding extra plots, consigner slots, simultaneous logins, and characters, this is where I think the most attention should be spent. There has to be customers who just want a single extra feature and can't justify a second subscription. There are also people who may have never thought about buying a second subscription consider throwing down a little extra money for extra consigner space or one more character.

Looking at the initial post in this thread, I'm guessing the following things can be individually added: plots, simultaneous logins, character slots, and consigner listings. Just throwing out some ideas on prices:

Second plot/lair: $8.95/mo, can only be added once?
Justification: Most players I knew that bought extra subs did so for more plots or to add a lair as well as a plot. At $8.95 the player is saving what looks like almost half off another subscription while being able to own twice the land or try out dragon lairs if they primarily play a biped character. The justification for a limit of only one extra account is to prevent people from buying up entire tracts of land for cheap and severely limiting typical, single-sub players access to prime real estate.

Extra Simultaneous Login: $8.95/mo?
Justification: This would be aimed at players who play with a friend or spouse that want to share the same property and don't need the extra characters or consigner space. I think that at $8.95 players will see that as a deal compared to a second login while only costing Virtrium a dollar less than an account with no plot access.

10? Extra Consigner Slots: $2.95
Justification: Easy money for Virtrium while still being a cheap addition. What's three bucks? Extra consigner space is a huge benefit to everyone all around. Consigners need to be packed full of items. If I'm in a crafting mood I want to list as much as I can on a consigner, and personally I would be willing to pay more to increase that limit. At $2.95 crafters would jump at the ability to make a little extra coin in-game while paying what looks like chump change compared to another subscription. Even so, if the "legacy" subscription price where in the $13.95 range, serious crafters everywhere would be bringing in close to $17 a month at least.

5 Extra Character Slots: $4.95
As long as I can remember I've only played one character, but I know people that have more alts than I can count. A few extra database entries could easily bear the extra 5 bucks of income a month. Some people just like to experiment and do not need extra logins or plots.

Combo Deals

Despite how much I would like to be able to pick and choose what features I add to my account, there are people out there that are comfortable paying for 4-5 accounts at once and would jump at the opportunity to save a little money in exchange for a greater level of commitment. For some reason I can't help but think about DirecTV's premium channel packages here. Basically you pay a certain amount for the first subscription, then one dollar less for each additional subscription. Example:

Add a second Gifted Sub: $12.95
Add a third Gifted Sub: $11.95
Add a forth Gifted Sub: $10.95
etc.

Finally, what's surprised me most about this game is the number of married couples that play. This has to be one of the most mature player bases in the MMO world. Just throwing this out there:

1 month Couple's Subscription: $25.95
25 Consigner Slots, 2 plots, 10 Characters, 2 Simultaneous Logins

6 month Couple's Subscription: $139.95-$149.95?
25 Consigner Slots, 2 plots, 10 Characters, 2 Simultaneous Logins

12 month Couple's Subscription: $299.95?
25 Consigner Slots, 2 plots, 10 Characters, 2 Simultaneous Logins

EDIT: Final Thoughts

The Gifted Subscription has to be marketed as the replacement for the legacy subscription model, not as a luxury. The basic subscription should be marketed towards new players or players who have limited resources. If the Gifted subscription becomes viewed as the "premium" model and the basic subscription the "normal," I can see a lot of returning players being upset and feel they are being forced out of their land ownership if they must pay 18-20 dollars for what once cost them $12.95.

Thoughts?

[Steelclaw]

Oooh. This is interesting.

Big question: Since it looks like 'features' can be independent of a subscription, is there any pricing for individual features? (a la carte)

Smaller question: Why is it cheaper to get two six-month 'Gifted' subscriptions than one twelve-month one?

Somewhere in-between question: Monthly subscriptions make more reliable income, but long term subscriptions give you more money to work with at the start. Which of these are you more inclined to favor?

I've thought about this some and think that aside from supporting HZ and keeping prices within tolerable limits, the pricing scheme should allow players flexibility (get only what they want to pay for) and at the same time, limit abuse of that flexibility (one sub, 20 characters, 20 plots, for example).

I have an alternative proposal that tries to account for these. I don't know what the current financial demands are, so I can only go by what I consider to be a 'fair deal'. I did, however, try to work the pricing plans out so that you can't get the equivalent of a higher package by combining lower packages for a lesser cost, and the higher package is slightly cheaper than the equivalent combination of lower packages.


First, the features (or services?):
One plot
15 consignment slots
5 additional characters
These go into 'feature slots' in a subscription and are priced at $6 per month each.

Now, the subscriptions (prices are per month):

$8.95 'Basic' (Can't we come up with a better name? Newbie? Introductory? Casual?)
- 1 character
- 3 consignment slots
- One concurrent login
- no feature slots

$13.95 'Gifted' (I see nothing confusing here, except it doesn't fit in with the other names.)
- 5 characters
- 15 consignment slots
- 1 concurrent login
- 4 feature slots, one of those is free.

$26.95 'Ancient' (This can be potentially confusing -- "Do I need an 'Ancient' account to become an ancient dragon?")
- 8 characters
- 20 consignment slots
- 2 concurrent logins
- 8 feature slots, two of them are free, 15% off additional features


(the 'Basic' subscription also happens to be the cost for just an additional concurrent login )

Now just take a percentage off the total for a long-term subscription, say 7% for 6 months ($1 off per month for a 'Gifted' account with no additional features), 10% for 12 months ($1.40 off per month for a 'Gifted' account with no additional features).

[Valados]

The current billing system is fine! Restrict me with only 10 consignment slots and what on earth am I going to do with the hundreds of things of junk I find just goofing around?! I might as well not sell them. Thats going to impact whatever economy there is if players stop selling things. I've never seen a consignment limit in any game I have ever played. The only limit is how much my box has, or how much cash I have to place the stuff for sell, or some other realistic but high limit. I don't need the cash and everyone knows it. But rather then spam channels and people with a few hundred items I post it up for 10 copper a piece so people who need the junk can get it and if it dosent sell I vendor it after it returns to me. There is a 7 day consignment timer..

Only five characters? So.. I suppose this means I will have to kill a bunch of the ones I have allready, that I actually play. I'm really not keen of that idea. I like the current character limit just fine.

Lifetime accounts? Sorry, I can subscribe to City of Heroes cheaper then that price. Im also against the idea of the more money you have the more you get in the game. It leans into the idea of money over gameplay. I can list a few games where if you pay x dollars you get gear, items, game money, xp.. ect.. Its not really fun for the average gamer from what I have read. In the state Horizons is in, 15 dollars is also pushing it in my opinion. I'd like to see some patches, events in the works, a new race or two, amognst many other things that were promised a looooooong time ago.. Where are they? People have tried to tell me all about code. Sorry, when you do what I do you know better. Why does dragon feel like a broken class still? Just a few examples. Not to say there has been a lack of communication, but I don't yet feel assured the game will continue foward as good as it has been...yet.

I personally see the basic as useless.. Again, the current subscription is fine. One plot, about 10-15 characters, and 100 consignment listings. All for about 12-15 dollars. I like that, I pay that. Thats highly acceptable to me. Not everyone has the luxury of spending 250 dollars just for two plots.. there is allready a problem with the number of plots in the game that people own. But basic gets none? Why.. why is there even a basic? Again, in my eyes the current subscription is just fine.

Almost everyone I know is allready saying their goodbye to me today. So if it sounds like a rant, it probibly is a little. I know there will be those who stay, but evintually even the new players will look around at the other MMO games if they have not allready and see the difference. Horizons allready lost alot to Vanguard when it went live, the only reason half returned is because of the better gameplay for their money. There are a really nice line of new MMOs comming out soon.. one needs to stay compedative and I do not want to see Horizons falling down a dark hole.

I've probibly missed a few points.. so feel free to add those if need be.

[Daedalus]

Keep the subscription cost exactly the same as it is now, with exactly the same benefits.

Then offer subscription add-ons. Examples (prices are purely suggestive):

Extra character slot: $1.99 per month.
Additional plot or lair: $5.99 per month.
xx additional consignment slots: $1.99 per month.

Then have your 'Ancient' subscription package, which is the current subscription package plus an extra plot, twice as many characters, twice as many consignment slots, etc, and the fluff items like shoulder buddy and special cargo disk as 'incentive'.

This proposal ensures no-one feels cheated out of what they currently have, and opens the doors to additional revenue for those that want to expand their account or pay for a premium account.