Billing Feedback

[Pharcellus]

Oh, I forgot to mention consigner slots...

My personal recommendation: get rid of the limit entirely. WoW has the auction house, which has no limits on the numbers of items you put up. Given the low sub numbers, this won't have any significant impact, and since it costs money to put the stuff up on the consigner to begin with, it's kind of a dumb double-standard anyway. By the time you get enough people putting stuff up to make it a strain, you will have time to recode the consignment system to be more efficient.

[Favoran]

For Favoran and the many others that want to add on to their account, there are other games that do that.

I'm not really looking to upgrade my account, and I'm certainly not looking to purchace rare items or anything like that. If anything, I want less than the basic subscription offers: 1 character slot and 1 plot of land. Why pay $12.95 for all this extra stuff I'm never going to use? If I want another character, I can buy another one.

Of course, I also agree with what others are saying about not changing how the billing works right now. If the current system has worked in the past, and there aren't too many complaints about it, why not focus on where the attention aught to be focused?

[Perfect World] If I had my way, though, I'd try to keep things /exactly/ as they are right now... [/Perfect World]

[Amecha]

It may be because I'm tired, or the fact that there's a lot of detailed information in one little post, but I'll give my input on what I understood.


The Basic Subscription
At the low price, along with a new player one month free trial, this may pull in some new players. The game itself is very original, and there is a lot to learn in the first few months of play, so the plot ownership may not be an issue right away.

The consignment slots are a basic part of the game and should really be made available to everyone, not just those who can shell out extra cash each month.


The Gifted Subscription
This seems to be a lot like what we have now, other than the consignment issue. The consignment is basically an issue with every subscription, as it has been freely available. However I wouldn't raise it over $14.95, as that's the regular going price for the majority of the MMORPGs now.


The Ancient Subscription
This subscription may work if it worked like stacked Gifted Subscriptions, with 10 player slots, 2 plots, 2 characters able to log in at the same time, and added extras only available to this subscription to make it worth the extra subscription cost. But again consigment rights shouldn't change with subscription size.





Added costs that are going to enable the game to be improved are acceptable, though they can't be empty promises. As it is there is a low player base, and with too much increased cost and more limitations, the game may be getting set up for failure.

Honestly, right now I don't believe that Horizons, as much as I love it, is worth more than $14.95. I wouldn't be thrilled in the increase, though I do understand that Horizons needs to find its feet again. Anymore than that and I would probably be forced to give up the game.

Also, what happens to existing accounts? Will there be a warning and ample time to decide which characters live and which characters die if someone is unable to pay the increased costs? Will there be any compensation for characters who've worked long and hard on plots they will no longer be able to own?

Maybe instead of differnet subscription options, you can keep the current subscriptions and offer added features for added monthly costs? You could charge so much for added characters, added plots, added simultaneous logins, etc. That way you can give the options and the player can add what, and how much they wish.

For example, someone who doesn't have a lot of time to play, but enjoys crafting, can have the option of one or two characters, and own three or four plots to work on. And another account shared with a family of four can have four characters and four simultaneous logins.

That's my input for now...

[Justa Mirage]

I see this is a hot and heated topic already!

For one, I do not like the proposed billing system for these various reasons that have already been discussed but I want my post heard as well.

Presently I was paying the 1 year 107.45 price (8.95 per month) plan. With this plan I got 5 character slots, 1 plot, and 1 concurrent login for 1 year. This included 10 consignment slots.

I have 2 accounts on the same email (214.90 price tag) for 2 accounts. This allows me to concurrently log in with any 2 of 10 characters at my choosing, and 20 consigner slots. Most of the players left either were still on the 1 year billing cycle, or had stopped being billed after EI took over.

My look at this pricing structure:

People who have all 5 character slots full, will be forced to pay the 12.95 price tag to maintain their character list. 12.95 is about the same as "present day" MMORPGs charge for their services. This game is 4 years old and with dated hardware. It is not really in contention for being in the running to be a "top" MMORG but it still is a nitch game that fits my game play well. I usually always pay in blocks because it usually is cheaper.

According to this pricing structure in order for me to pay for 2 accounts at 1 year each will cost me 520 dollars... that's a far cry from 107.45 and breaks down to 21.66 per month per sub (43.32 per month)

I know of NO popular present day MMORPG with a full staff of developers, customer service, and overhead that even comes close to that per month.

I did notice that it has "question marks" in the concurrent login which bring me to a few ruminations:

1: If the non-auto-renew price of 260 for an Ancient package comes with 2 or more concurrent logins, multiple plot ownership, and consignment slots per character, then is this going to be like LoTRO's "lifetime membership?" Pay once and never pay again?

2: Paying 153 extra dollars for a shoulder buddy is kinda steep when the 107.45 got me basically the same package minus the shoulder buddy. This brings me back to the "paying 260 per year for effectively 2 accounts with 10 character slots and multiple plot ownership" would be acceptable for me as then it breaks down to 130 per account (10.83 per month)

3: Having any restriction on "number of character slots" per tier of payment is ridiculous. Most MMORGS have 8-10 slots per account, but Horizons is limited to 5, not 5 per shard... 5 total... This forces you to make the "ultimate decision" as to what you want to play.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

I would personally like the base price be 8.95 per month (or less... keep it low to attract new players) and slightly raise the price per month for block memberships (like 11.95 per month) but those who pay in advance will get the perks of more consignment slots, more plot purchases, and more in-game fluff. 260 dollars is out of my MMORPG budget right now for 1 account, but if it will cover "effectively having 2 accounts for that price" then it's a good deal.

[walkertn]

I actually like the Ancient Subscriptions, if I could have more than one concurrent login, so that both my wife and I can play again. $259 a year is a much better deal than the two Gifted Subscriptions I would have to pay for other wise. I honestly could care less about plots as one or two would be enough for both of us. The consignment slots are important, and I think with our old accounts we both had about seven characters, but really only ever played a couple of those anyway so again I probably wouldn't care about character slots.

All this is of course once the game works on Vista. :-)

[CottenCandy]

Honestly I wouldn't mind paying the 9.95 a month except not plots... Sorry but i'll admit i'm poor and struggle to pay my bills as is. I really love this game. i could even probably afford the 14.95 a month but for only 1 account. I own two accounts and have my guild plot on one and i plan on buying a lair with my other. but that would mean paying almost 30 a month for those two accounts. and the only reason i have the second account is for the second plot option as is..... Is there a option for us poorer folk that may be we can have one account and then buy a second plot for a few dollars a month added on? i really dont care about the mulitlogin concidering my computer can bairly handle one game running at a time :P

Also is it 1 plot/lair per shard or you get 1 plot/lair on the shard you play on most? *if that made any sense lol half asleep here*

[Valados]

Thats another thing.. before I disapear for the night I would like to say that this game *Ahem* "Does not run on Vista". Vista is crap, plain and simple yes. But.. there are people who are highly insistant on running the bugged system rather then sticking with XP (Wich runs almost flawlessly for most as long as you do not run into a Microsoft scam) or do not have much of a choice in what OS they can run (Some people get pre-built computers). I know Vista does not like alot of the old DLL codes, but perhaps get it to run on vista before considering upping the price of a game that still has many unfinished and broken ascpets?

I still run XP and refuse to upgrade after I found out what Microsoft was doing. However I have a friend or two who has little choice but to use Vista. These players have had to make self work arounds just to get it to work, fixing it themself where as the game designers need to be doing that instead. Those are my thoughts on that.

[Kulamata]

We are doing well with billing integration (Welcome news!) ...

We're looking for your feedback.
/Wild cheering from the long-suffering!
...
We are listening and would like to ask everyone to keep your comments, ideas, and feedback on topic and friendly.
Wild cheering breaks out once again, and, and... yes! They're dancing in the aisles!

First of all, it's great to see V. gathering information from the players this way. Another aspect of a great (re)start.

I agree with many others that omitting consignment slots for the basic sub is unworkable.

I very much like the idea of additional vault space for higher tier subs.

I also like the idea of "basic" plots. Good use of the 25 X 25's, and would give the basic subbers the feeling that they are fully participating from the beginning. And similarly, I liked the idea of the basic sub allowing a guild member's plot. I think that's important, as guilding is key to retention. And full participation for all would prevent diluting Hz's strength of community, clearly one of Hz's major strengths.

Consignment slots. Is that per imperial consigner as now? It really should be, or else it's quite a step backward.

I like shoulder buddies, and think the shoulder buddies should convey a mild buff, or aura or something besides just sitting there like a party cow with a bad hangover. ("My head hurts, stop moooving!")

I'm not sure why, but I don't like the lack of auto renewal on most versions. What is the reasoning behind that?

For the Ancient subs, maybe unique emotes? Unique shields and/or weapons? Unique armor dyes? Show-off spells, that act like fireworks? Glowing scales, scales trailing some spell effect? Extra flight height? Access to unique formulas for non-uber weapons/armor, but anything else? Title? Ornate frame/fount for Name/title/guild? Flaming name? Names on an obelisk/wall?

Also some way for GUILDS to make, and be recognized for, some additional contribution. Guild name on Wall? Banner? Placard? Shield logo? Guild name on mini-banner over player's heads? Would need to be on a per-capita basis, to prevent discriminating against smaller guilds.

The ancient subs seem to be basically a way to provide added support, as done by those players who've had multiple subs just to support Hz. I'd suggest keeping Ancient subs pretty close to the Gifted subs, with some defining characteristic to make it clear that the player is contributing extra for the good of the game.

So I'd suggest adding another sub type. Instead of doubling up for the ancient, have a family subscription... a Family Ticket, with 4 (!) concurrent logins, 2 basics and 2 Adul... err Gifted for the cost of 2 Gifted. That would encourage family play, and retention should more than repay the price reduction.

Or a family ticket in each tier; basic, gifted, and ancient, but all with 4 plots and consignment slots for each player, but perhaps limited alts for the basic. Or just a major price break for stacking two basic, and two Gifted, but I like the sound of family packages better. ("Now, with special family pricing!!!" sounds like a good way to attract new players, especially casuals. Which was Hz's original target market.) Add maybe a little family island, with picnic tables, some sort of game or two, skeleton NPC consigners... with access for family subscribers (only??).

As for the prices, do try to hold the Gifted sub pretty close to the current prices. Some players are on fixed incomes, and the cost does matter; and some of those are players for whom the game is especially important, such as shut-ins. A helpful approach would be to "grandfather" current pricing until cancellation for those returning/continuing players who request it within a limited period.

The military support program should be kept unchanged or expanded, but in no way cut back.

Knossos' suggestion of listening ingame has great merit also. (Because devs get 29 hours a day, right? Delegate that somehow to neutral observers?)

And the axe I'm honing? (I HATE grinding!) Played 2 1/2 (?) years, from early beta 3, left finally when "nerfs" became unbearable. It was the mithril alloy change that eventually got to me...

[TelShyia]

Okay Vit, i have two accounts, i also pay for my sons account and my two granddaughters (single account), plus my wifes account, so let see that makes - 5 active accounts. I would NOT like to see an increase in having to pay more for this game. I can have 2 plots, 10 characters with my account. I have a plot and a Lair, both of which took MONTHS and MONTHS to build, I would be VERY unhappy if i had to give up any of them. I am paying 12.95 PLUS the 26.85 for the 3 month special thing. 26.85 for wifes(3 month), 12.95*2 for sons and G-Kids. So, you are getting approx 54.00 a month outta me now. How about you just leave the billing alone for now, and just get it fixed? My wife has wanted a sub account so she could have 2 plots for OVER a year. And that is just because storage in the game stinks!
How about you fix it so that the ones that have VI vaults and cannot get VII ones cause the vault quest is messed up, get the ability to get an upgrade? As an Ancient Dragon, FIX TRI-CUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! make them NON-TRICUTS, having to get 11k of one tier item PLUS a second item is JUST WAY to much!
Okay, so I got a little off topic here, but the basic point is, making a person pay MORE for this game with all its troubles, and right outta the gate, especially as a player that has played for 2 years, is asking alot.
You want us to pay more, fix things first, then ask for more money. If we have to pay more, then we would definately have to reconsider what we pay, who plays.
If you raise prices, I would drop to just 3 accounts.
Well, starting to ramble, and i really dont see any 'perks' to pay more at this time.

Telshyia - Ancient Chaos Dragon

[Theros Ironfeld]

Sorry but i just dont see the sense in increaing the sub cost no matter how much honey you want to coat it in
if anything the price should drop as some have already said this game is old with problems that i know you are attempting to fix
but it still has problems
no way in hades will i pay what your askin just to
fly a dragon
build a plot
uh uh no way
sorry
you must first repair the bad aura around this game not tax the existing/returning members for more cash

[Kulamata]

I just read the posts that appeared while I was toiling over mine...

The current state of the game doesn't change the fact that the devs need to eat; and the more money that comes in, the more devs can be hired, and the faster we'll get the changes needed.

So yes, it's betting on the future, but given all I've seen, it's the best bet yet in Horizon's rocky ride.

Remember, well fed devs don't nerf! They need less sleep too!

[Hrrunstar]

Well, a few thoughts.


'Basic' must have consigner slots, it is to basic to the game not have them. I see plot ownership as a larger commitment all around, so worth bumping up to the next level.


'Gifted' is the same basic subscription as we have now and I would say it could be raised to $13.95, but I do not see how it can be currently justified to go to 'main stream' pricing.


'Ancient' double everything 'Gifted' has for a discount sounds good. I would rather not see 'shoulder buddies' dragon or otherwise be a paid for perk, but that's just me.


It would be nice if all levels could auto-renew.


Over all, however, I would favor Pharcellus' proposal of Packages and a la carte customization if that would, indeed, be feasible.

[Aamer Khan]

Ok. This has me scratching my head.

I can understand the need for additional funding, since your stated intent is to resurrect the game and get back to making improvements and adding content.

But what strikes me odd, is that you have a small player base that you need to increase first. If your new billing concept drives away current players that have stuck with the game through all the down times, then I would have to wonder what you rational really is.

Hal and Steelclaw have some interesting idea that would seem to me to be less destructive.

In a game where anyone can become a master of all trades ( literally ), consignment slots are still key to a working economy for any consumable item or resources. ( less so for crafted items like weapons and armor )

Adding items that cost a monthly fee, like more slots, or even additional plots, while leaving the basic subscription as it has always been, will server your goal much better than potentially running off players at this late date.

[Jayne]

Geez! Ok I have a question. Say I have 3 seperate accounts and I dont like or cant afford the new pricing and decide I can only afford one account. Will you be copying the 5 characters I chose to one account????

Do I get to pick what plot I can keep????

[Varraven]

I would suggest keeping subscription rates the same, and also continue to allow for multiple subs under a single account (simultaneous logins, plots, etc. depending on how many subs). I wouldn't be interested in any of the new presented plans myself. Some things I think could be of value to Horizons are add-on packages, be they one-time or monthly paid services. These could include services such as a monthly charge per additional vault space, carrying capacities, one-per-charge character makeovers (if this is possible?), new armor/weapon/tool dyes, name changes, and even paid shard transfers. These are things I would personally be very interested in, and am sure I would pay for more than once. But, I see no value in changes to the current subscriptions, as they certainly don't seem exciting enough, whatsoever, to mess with. Just some thoughts...

[venom-dragon7799]

I think that the current price for hz is just fine no need to change that for anything, maybe add stuff for people who want to pay for more stuff in a diffrent package deal that way people who just want their accounts,plost/lairs as is can have it that way and people who want say the stuff you guys mentioned but on a slightly smaller cost level then what is proposed. that way people can choose if they just want a normal deal pacake they can have that and their plots, and though who want special items or somthing can buy the other packages. for 2 1/2 years ive played hz and i dont really want to see somthing like this game were so many enjoyed themselves get turned into just a game where you dish out more then 14 dollars a month just to play. i applaud the way V. has done things so far though.

[Vermithraxx]

My turn!

Lots of good ideas in this post, so I won't rehash and try to create my own structure... just a few (I hope) thoughts:

1.) I do NOT expect to pay more for what I get now. Not even a buck. Sorry, this game is out-of-date, stagnant, and running on 2004 code that wasn't finished THEN. There's a lot of potential now thanks to the exponential nature of computer hardware development... but until that potential is shown to be tapped, asking for more money is financial suicide.

2.) No other game requires real-world money to access a basic concept like housing/plots. Using it as a way to siphon gold off of the in-game economy is fine, just make bigger lairs/plots with bigger price tags. (Just to give you an idea, I consider it one plot = one subscription... and since, thanks to stagnation, there ARE no lairs to be had, I think it's fair that I've been playing for free.)

(And I do agree with the idea of paying extra per month for an additional plot/lair. But I expect my basic $12.95 to let me buy one lair if a plot/lair reclaim is ever done.)

3.) My limit is $14.95/month. That's what I pay for my two EQ2accounts, in a game that's constantly developed, has less lag, better AI, etc so forth. Asking for more than that in a game that MIGHT show development someday...

4.) WHAT is up with your consignment system?! I have NEVER understood why Horizons had the worst selling system in the known world. Please look at any other gaming system (such as EQ2) and adopt a centralized database where the limits are all in-game (containers).

5.) Try helping the in-game economy instead of throttling it? Goes back to 4 really, but one of the big boosts to an economy is adding recipes/items that people need... such as items that would HELP them sell more items... (Why, oh why, would you NOT want players to be able to sell items? btw, knock a few dollars off of the basic sub and make it 0 connie slots. I'll save my real-world money and spam the MP channel

6.) Number of player slots: Personally, I'm a dragon, don't care. But, in the interest of your financial survival, I'll point out that EQ2 gives SEVEN (yes, it went UP) character slots with a basic sub. (After all, isn't it all a time sink? If you can keep peeps busy playing, more money in your pocket.) You WANT players to make one of each race/class and play for as long as possible.

My few thoughts for now.

I also agree with the other poster... feel free to log in and chat online with us. (Dragon and Marketplace are the most popular places on Chaos). We'll be happy to bend your ear, and you'll see who's in the game now.

[Ashuran]

I'd be willing to pay the 14.95 price for the Gifted account IF we're going back to having the ongoing plotline and monthly events we used to have in the old days. That's what brought me to the game in the first place.

However, I'm unwilling to pay any more than that price until this actually starts happening. I doubt you can blame me after what I've been through, having been here since launch... I am also concerned that new players will find even 14.95 hard to swallow unless major improvements are made to the game. I understand that your team is very small... and that will make development and running events difficult, and this concerns me greatly... but raising any prices at this stage strikes me as a very bad idea unless there is some immediately evident advantage to the new account type, well and above the accounts the current players have now.

The lower price for a basic account is a good idea for new players imho, it might actually attract them. Might allow people a bigger leeway to feel the game out before they decide they want to upgrade, and get a plot and such to work on. Solves the problem of people buying up plots with trial accounts and then abandoning them. It also allows folks who want to be more casual about playing the game to do so without breaking their banks. Depending on how you want to go, you might even want to make the price lower.

As for the Ancient account idea, I doubt anyone's going to be attracted to it unless the benefit is something major.

For now I'd suggest focusing on keeping the players you have here and now happy and especially pulling in new ones... happy players tend to bring their friends and talk about the game in a good light. You can't buy that kind of advertising at any price.

[Istaria CS]

If you're reading along and have not seen the compiled list of responses at the top of this thread, please jump back to the top. There's lots of answers to concerns that have been raised.

Horizons Development Staff

[Luthen]

Whatever happened to the free trial idea? Why pay $9.95 to essentially test such an old game?

I liked the idea of a la carte (at least for characters - I can see why some might argue for stacking a second or third subscription for more characters, but I wouldn't pay for it).

Some are playing down the significance of allotted character slots, a number which in my humble opinion is barely sufficient to begin with. I for one enjoy having alts... I am not a biped guy. So, instead of multiclassing I make hatchlings, and it gives me something to do to craft on them, to level them, to take them through their ability quests and their RoPs, and to eventually get them to ancient status. I enjoy seeing my efforts come to fruition, and if it keeps me interested in Horizons longer, and thus a paying customer longer, then what harm is there in that?

Why should I have to pay some exorbitant sum in order to play on my characters? I have offed a few after learning that there is a 5 character limit, but I will not delete them all. And quite honestly if I was expected to pay more than I am financially capable of paying or face character deactivation, I know plenty of better ways to waste my money.