WoW posts excerpts

[Vahrokh]

Since we have these juicy rants forums, why not using them?

So, I dediced to create one thread about *excerpts* of what I post on WoW that is vaguely relevant or compares with Horizons.


Here is the first one, assuming in Horizons is still possible to enter that "arena" where you can "PvP".


It's about how idiotic is their arena system (a sort of 2 v 2 to 5 v 5 fight, who wins climbs a ladder and gets GREAT epics. Who loses? The same!)

So, many of the raiders and PvE players dropped everything and now play this thing, in order to get cheap epics instead of earning them beating content.

Notice the "veiled" hints at "another game"

-----------------------------------------

I just don't get it. If the fact that getting gear is slightly quicker in PVP than in PVE, and so people are quitting raiding guilds for the sole purpose of getting gear quicker in PVP, then doesn't that say more about the PVE content than the PVP? Doesn't that mean that the people in these guilds were never in it for the fun of the game but solely for the aquisition of items?

I understand that it's hard to get, because for those being "in the system" it looks natural.

I play or played other games, all with great features and defects. One of them (my last game, and I hope, the next after WoW) is aimed at different customers than WoW.

It's mostly of a PvE game with one "arena" for those who want to ciment in some PvP.
There, everything is crafted, the recipes all on vendors or off quests, so everyone can enter that arena exactly with the gear he feels like it's best. No "I pwnz0rs yoo with my purplez" idiots.
Hell, you can train to be i.e. tailor and actually do it yourself (armorsmith etc too).

WoW instead promotes reckless competition, low and cheap shots, exploits, exasperate competition to the maximum extent possible, prevarication over who has less time.

The players in WoW just morbidly "adapt" to the environment, making it the worst humanity dung drain in the gaming history.

5 - 10 out of 25 in a given raid, are players with a full and total will to defeat Illidan, the others are there for gear, for fame, for self boasting. They are citizens of the drain.

Arena is a very strong call for them, it's appealing competition to make them choose another, quicker route (even if it'd not be so, it still calls them like a siren).

People that was not too much "convinced" at defeating content, are bombarded with those people posing in S2 at Orgrimmar, sporting (actually parking in your face) their netherdrake and so on. Till one day, after the 20th wipe on the same end instance boss, they get stuffed and just let themselves go.
They quickly announce how they want to stop raiding and eventually gquit and follow the purples scent.

The promise is for an insured weapon better than the one they did NOT get in many months, about gear that allows for them to grind primals and mats exactly as good as the best PvE gear would do, finally free from the HIDEOUSLY FLAWED PvE forced spec system that made them lose any fun at their character.

It's just too strong of a call, too good, it provides only and all the advantages possible and the promise to take less time.

Who stays, has once again to beg multiple servers to get another raider that still did not give up or one who really wants to pay 30,000g from Gruul to Illidan in repairs and consummables and useless gimped spec.

You are true, it's a game issue. PvE made as masochistic and endless grind thru reputations just to get keys to enter instances, PvE specs made to piss off and demoralize people, 360° cleaving mobs with 10k of instant damage (yesterday a _trash mob_ did me 21k damage in bear form), requires so much higher dedication and readiness than vanilla WoW PvE (so who was not really motivated could at least watch TV while spamming 1 button, now you have to run, to click, to throw stuff, to run in patterns, and the boss skill is always random, always deadly if not dealt with in 1 second).

Basically PvE is now a chore. I know it's not really "nice" to force players to stick with PvE even if they are not so hot with it but what can we do? We can't raid in 10 in T5 / T6 instances, we need "fillers".

PvP now provides such a brilliant alternative that the PvE flaws show off in all their size.

Me, and others, just want to have enough people to see Illidan and then finally be released from this cesspool and go play a fun game. It's not so much that we ask.

[Lunhilde]

Obviously, they banned you for being intelligent.

omgwthbbzpwnn0rz!

[Tryagain]

its simpler than all that.

MMO's have to satisfy an equation.

How much content can cover up the fact that said MMO is just a grind ?

Every MMO since EQ has been doing this. Some have been successful and others have not. its why HZ failed so miserably TulgaAE failed to realize that nerfing and multiclassing was no substitute for content. That eventually just dragging a cargo disc around wasn't going to cut it.

WoW on the other hand has gone way to far. They made a game that BRILLIANTLY covers up the grind but created an insidious beast called the gear monster. The likes of which will never be slain even by the most talented of raiders. In Blizzards attempt to spread the gear around they made a welfare epic system in its PVP game and added more carrots for the raiders.

Its a never ending vicious cycle. I have yet to find an MMO that can deal with it. This game included.

my only conclusion is that the games are not flawed but we are :P .

[Vahrokh]

Well, I was pretty happy to have to drag a cargo disc.
I quit Horizons not because I had nothing to do. I quit in the middle of an huge plot construction that would have "given" me weeks or months of stuff to do (being one of those ancient 30 adv / 100 craft dragons with a 25 spr / 70-80 + most crafts at my biped alt, I liked to craft )

What killed Horizons for me, at my time, was that people quit and did not ask me to craft / build stuff for them any more. The only reason for me to play a multi player game, socialize, faded. Still I kept logging sometimes, but then GN pulled the plug so I am here, undead, and half a yearly subscription wasted and not refunded too >_<

[Vahrokh]

Another post.
About WoW having degenerated to the point that even the last roleplaying class, druids (my main, aptly called "Sahrokh" is one of them) are now just gankers and little more.
Ganker: in WoW-ese means people who kill you (there's non consensual PvP there) pretty cheaply, while you have mobs already attacking you and you were in trouble already (or worse).

He can't have been a proper feral.

I am feral since years, tank or DPS 95% of the time and I have a set good enough to main heal up to end of TK.
Costed me some hundreds DKP too to get it as well.

Every1 says that druids sucked before pre tbc etc... Don't say that

Pre-TBC druids were very good, just not at what the players expected when reading the class description. Like for paladins.
Pre-TBC, I'd have had to crash the computer on a modem connection to allow for someone else to kill me.
Else, I'd take 2 hours per kill^^, but in the end I'd win.

Finally, pre-TBC I specced feral and *main* tanked from Ragefire Chasm to Naxxramas.
Easier, much easier than today I'd tank in Steamvaults.

I put warriors into horrid shame. I had to autoattack at Vael else I'd piss easily grab aggro, in RESIST GEAR, to fully potted, flasked, and rage pot prepped main tanks.

About old school etiquete could it have something to do with the fact that your average druid reaslised pre tbc even as feral that they were a low dps class.

No, we realised how cool was to roleplay.
You know, that thing that makes RPG games "roleplay games".
In my other MMO, in a non RPG server, was normal for me to roleplay for EIGHT hours and achieve more fun than killing a BT boss in WoW.
The new druids need to L2(role)play, seriously.

We are not a stupid can with a stick, made to beat on random stuff.
We are ancient and proud priests of nature, whose lore is saved in our best defended structure but follows us thru the lands.

We love nature and balance (doh, we have a spec with said name, figures), to the point we can invoke plants spirits to help us or be so intimate with animals to become one.
We are not given the dances and best RP tools to whack a mole, but to be a superior class for people that can think, imagine and compose poetry.

Like in my other MMO game, where it's *normal* in a *service general forum* (like WoW General / PvP) to roleplay THERE and to post rhymes as answers to general questions / threads.

Oh my nature gods, how much the WoW community does not know how to play a massive-yet-roleplay game. Losing so much of the feeling and involvement into it.

[Vahrokh]

P.S. All of my posts, you'll notice are not exactly typical WoW posts. Head over

http://forums.wow-europe.com/

or

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/

and click "general" or "PvP"

to have a "sample" (*starts to cry*) of the kind of "stuff" is posted there.

You will want to fervently start playing Horizons again.

[gopher65]

Its a never ending vicious cycle. I have yet to find an MMO that can deal with it. This game included.

my only conclusion is that the games are not flawed but we are :P .

I'd say the opposite. That every MMOG currently on the market (or planned) has an intrinsically flawed basic design. I know some people disagree with me, but I just don't believe a static unchanging world can be truely fun.

After all, what was fun about HZ? The ability to create housing which others could see (non-instanced) and the ability to participate in massive server-wide events that spanned months of time.

These two things have one thing in common: they have a permanent effect on the world itself. So instead of creating games like WoW and LOTRO where the entire idea is a series of static quests and instanced raids, you need a game that will allow you (each individual player) to change the world and participate in some small fashion.

What needs to change is the idea that gamemakers have that because a game is a "persistent world" it needs to exist in a neverending, unchanging way.

I have no good ideas on how to accomplish this though. The only thing I can think of as a starting point is that any good game is a story. Any story needs a beginning, middle, and definite end. This includes these persistent worlds. Now maybe the gameworld and the story will run for years slowly unfolding, but eventually it needs to have a conclusion, and the contributers to the story (players) need to feel satisfied with what happened.

At least, that's what I think:P.

[Lunhilde]

The thing about presistent worlds ad the ability to change the face of the map is, indeed, a major draw.

I guess we have to back up, way up, and look at real life.

You wake up. You go to work making sprockets of Spacey's Sprocket company. All you make all day are sprockets. You go home. Nothing has changed. This goes on for years.

Games, specifically roleplaying style games, have a few very basic goals that appeal to a human brain's reward center. Success at a task, Lasting Effect of Effort, and Life Made Easier.

The younger you are, the quicker you want these three basic things, as play is more ike 'play' and less like the longer, more spaced out time of 'life' and 'work'. There are less years behind you, you're new at the 'game of life', and you want success fast, effects fast, etc.

If older, the more spaced out these things are in your real life, the more you want to see them in games faster.

MMO's all desperately try to balance between the impatient children and the frustrated adults, both of which are more commonly the gamers, the 'escapists'. Both of these classes do not want to wait or struggle like they do in real life to make an impact on the game world, so for a game world to be appealing, that time frame has to be shorter and shorter...

Then there is a middle class of gamer, oddly, the 'old school' stye, whose lives are alright (regardless of physical circumstance - perhaps all they do is make sprockets, but in a very Zen way, they live in the moment of their sprocket-making, ad appreciate life). For these folks, they appreciate the time and the effort as much as the reward. The game is still an 'escape' of sorts, perhaps, but more likely is a challenge which is *part * of the lives they areliving now, not an escape from the lives they're 'stuck in'.

these are the folks who, like me :P Can sit in a game quietly and not be grindig like mad or LFG spamming channels or spazzing over the next piece of fabled loot, but can sit quietly in the moment, enjoying what they are doing, even if it is only standing still ad waching the world/zone/level chat scroll by quietly while they watch the digital clouds roll past and appreciate the game for what it is; a construct of work, time, effort, and enjoyment.

Or maybe I'm waxing too philosophical.

Either way, the games today are written for children and unsatisfied impatiet adults, WoW among the top ranking of them. EQ2 is half and half (if you figure the median ages of the player bases this makes sense - something ike 15 versus 22-23) and then there's EQ1, HZ, AC1, etc, where the player ases are predominantly 25+, with a few thoughtful wise youngsters among the players who stick it out.

So, yah. I don't know what I mean by all of this. I guess it is a rant.

[Corvinus]

So what exactly are you trying to say Vahrokh ?
That Horizons is better than WoW ?
or the player base are not as mature as Horizons ?
That my football team is not as good as yours ?
or my taste in music is bad ?

[Velea]

No one's making this personal, Corvinus. Least they better not me.

*gets ready to knock a few heads around if need be*

(Just a friendly reminder from your neighborhood moderator to keep in mind that forum rules do still apply.)

[Vahrokh]

So what exactly are you trying to say Vahrokh ?

This thread is an hymn at what we could be forced to play if Horizons did not exist.
This thread is what I must play since my character (hopefully only for now) sits on Unity.
This thread is about how I tease and troll the dumb WoW posters about how much better a little game of a 3 man company can be compared to a Pharaonic Mammoth that won at shareholders revenue but lost its heart, its meaning as RPG in the process.

[Tryagain]

Wow as Amazing fun for me levels 1 to 59. In fact the fun factor for me has been un matched. HZ can't even now hold a even a slight little bit of a candle to it. Sorry but there is no arguement that can say that. HZ's sub 1000 player base is proof positive of that and we all know it wasn't much better under tulga.

WoW TBC levels 60 to 69 was amazing fun as well very well done. Anyone who says it isn't really has no clue as to what is good MMO design. I have no doubt at all that Wrath of the lich king will continue on this same trend.

Where WoW fails is the max level games. Before TBC it was the level 60 end game grind. Now its the level 70 end game grind. PVP raiding and rep grinds all suck the life out of you. In the same regard wrath of the lich king will be no better. IN the various interviews with Kaplan I can see that he hasen't a clue how to deal with the max level game and doesn't seem to want to add anything for a casual to do. Casuals do not need good gear to be effective in WoW. They just need something they can do something they can compete at. They do not need good gear ? Heh sorry but both at the level 60 and 70 pvp game I have beaten raiders and warlord type pvp'ers alike with my blue green setup. gear is nice but its not the end all. kaplan just doesn't see that and will continue on his merry way.

Sorry Vah I am going to say this now. If Vitrium listens to you HZ will die its final death. To date it has survived on shady business practices and exploitations to the letter of law. It doesn't have much left and Vitrium can learn from games like WOW and LOTRO. They do not have to copy it but they can see what HZ is missing and add an hz flare and stay within the games current vision. But people like you get so easily offended and feel they need to trash wow and anyone who has ever played it. I have seen some mighty stupid people in this game as well. WoW has no monopoly there. Not trying to insult you Vah but you seem so resistant to change and you believe the status qou is fine. Sorry my dragon comrade but it is not.

Look to the pudding the proof is already there. Do not belittle Horizons by trying to say its better than WoW. Instead help give Vitrium some direction in how it can make HZ better. WOW is a good game. It just fails at key junction called the high level game. The journey to the high level game is exceptionally well done. Vitrium can learn from that example while not copying wow.

Moderators Notes: I highlighted some areas in this color to point out that you're walking the edge of flaming someone else for their opinions, Tryagain. You even say yourself that you're not trying to insult Vah. If you feel you need to put something like that as a qualifier, it means you probably already have. Expressing your opinions is fine. Attacking someone else or belittling them for expressing their own, is not.

[Vahrokh]

Ok, WoW is excellent in the 5 days it takes to level to 60 and in the other 5 days it takes to level to 70, then it's an amazing grind.

I concede you that, despite having levelled several alts now I get bored at it as well.

Horizons for me has been excellent for twice as long as much I played at WoW (my main has 200 days /played and some alts have 30 / 40). Not due to the game per se, but because of the people who played it.

The fact Horizons *HAS* otrageous issues that cut off an amazing amount of players, is here, but it's not my job to fix it. My job I have always done was to pester the developers on IRC with long lists of errors, and I am pretty sure I have done more in Horizons as player than in any other game.

So, while more than that is not in my hands, I can report here and everywhere that my trip in Horizons has been fantastic and unique, I am of course biased by the fact I mainly play a dragon (they got quests to do and are unique) but I can't discount this thing like is due. If it was due, there'd be plenty of similarly powerful and unique games like this as it'd be a standard.

I am sorry that I don't stay mouth wide open before the colossal success of WoW, because for me it's more enticing to see a gorgeously chiseled 1 inch sculpture no one notices than a roboant concrete 1 cubic mile skycraper full of successful business, planted in the middle of a natural reserve.

To achieve financial success is Vi business, not mine, to have fun in game it's my business, I am but an invisible pixel on a dead server somewhere that says he liked the community, I'd like the community even if Horizons was a 50 players MUD on the verge of closing.

The day they stop having players build town and bridges because it's a commercial failure (despite it promotes making long term friends) and replace it with a shiny instance full of epics to grind, in order to grind the next instance, it's the day *for me* this game will fail, it'll be but the 100th WoW clone. Like all the other clones, it'll have less quests, less monsters, less to do, because you can't equal the world best with unlimited funds and a company - Blizzard - who know what they do (it's not a monopoly off the usual idiotic multinational).

Sue me for saying I liked Horizons, I lagged and crashed more than you, the EU servers were months behind the care and patch level the US servers had.

When you were having fun with events, when you had issues solved by making tickets, we were struggling offline for undefined hours or days with no advice, no ticket answered. Vahrokh bugged his RoP so that I could never become adult. The only solution after my struggle with tickets and all? DELETE a 30 adv 90 dcra character and restart from zero. This in an epoch where to even have hoard meant to spend infinite hours in the night with guild mates making me stuff to hoard fast, fast before it auto deleted itself few days.

Even then, the community made the game for me.
I have been banned / censored on Tazoon.com or my threads locked more times than it'd be healty to, because of how bugged were dragons or the rest of the game.

Still I was impatient to arrive home and play with my friends again, even the "randoms" still being better than in WoW at humanity.

Wether it was the game bad implementation or not, I was happy by then, the fact you dismiss the reason I payed 2 subscriptions with yearly renewals in advance like I am but a sort of fanboi is simply too simplicistic, you might seek in the forums of the past to see how fanboi I was, how I was a premium rants forums citizen.

All what I have the developers to know, instead, is to improve the game - be it implementing WoW-like features or having their own head and do their way, while NOT tossing the child with the wash water, that is keep the unique and good of Horizons of the past, with the improvements to have a good future.

If you feel like it's "status quo", well, fine, all I feel is that I will talk with opinion with my pockets, if I'll see the game going for a fantastic business success but losing his soul in the process, I'll let others enjoy it, I'll go play my old MUD again. Ancient, old... and with playable dragons and old friends even there. And free.

[Lunhilde]

Heh, seriously, why are you so afraid people will get 'listened to', Tryagain? I trust Amon and crew to not pollute the game with silliness and not destroy it's balance (sure people will always crow one way or the other but in the end they have the numbers in their docs, not us). Believe it or not, every once in awhile people do have good ideas, and every once in awhile, they're not Blizzard employees.

[Corvinus]

This thread is about how I tease and troll the dumb WoW posters about how much better a little game of a 3 man company can be compared to a Pharaonic Mammoth that won at shareholders revenue but lost its heart, its meaning as RPG in the process.

So one is allowed to rubbish another games players and forum posters and I am unable to bring this particular one into question ?
For those of interest I have roamed Horizons for the last 40 or so days enjoyed NT immensely nice line of quests and things to do. Moved to Kion still a fair bit to do and enjoy , however , roadblock time , class quests stopped at level 20.
When asking the question about this I was informed next class quest was level 30 and you must grind 10 levels to do so , and after the level 30 quest there is no more.
What a wonderful game this Horizons is , grind for 70 levels swap class and grind again , very entertaining , not !
People need to look in their own backyard before rubbishing their neighbours.

[Whysp]

Firstly, before this degrades into (even more of) a debate of which game is better, let's all remember that everyone has different tastes and interests. I, personally, prefer crafting to adventuring. Games like FlyFF and even EQ2 (because of the need to choose a single craft) don't hold as much draw for me as EverQuest and Horizons, with their ability to pretty much level every crafting skill, do.

Secondly, I actually got into a discussion with someone a few nights ago. I'd told him that combat/crafting in games has been similar since the invention of the video game. Equip weapon/tool, target enemy/resource, activate attack/skill. Rinse and repeat until done. It's something familiar, and it works, so I don't see it changing any time soon, with the exception of a new paint job to fool our minds into thinking we're doing something different. I don't mind this, obviously, as I've been playing video games for close to two decades, now.

I've known for years that something's missing in MMORPGs, and have desired it to the point that I've been designing my own game which may or may not be accepted by any playerbase. I've been researching similarities in MMOs for the better part of six years, and have found three large ones, which I plan to change in the game I'm making. If other people think they're good ideas, and decide they want to use them, more power to them.

The three big things I've noticed are:

That the individual doesn't matter. While I think it's wonderful that there're games where the Devs can create elaborate events for unlocking new content, it's rare, if ever, that an individual can do it. If anything, nearly the entire population of the server needs to take part in order for it to succeed. As soon as your character is created, every NPC in the gameworld knows who you are, and as soon as your character is deleted, none of them mention your name again. (Unless you make a character with the same name.) Quests are often static, and I believe one of the things most frustrating in games is that each character essentially lives the same story. Something game designers (and most players) often forget, is that MMOs aren't about a single story. Every player has a story they're trying to live.

That violence is the answer. In several games, the only way to get something done is to kill a target. In EverQuest, that was also the only way to get crafting materials since there weren't any world resource spawns. Instead, there were loot tables for the mobs. In WoW, I read the description for Night Elves, listened to the introductive story, and was greatly confused when the first three quests I was given by my tree-hugging brethren were to kill the non-aggressive creatures because they were overpopulating. As if the ecosystem wasn't capable of keeping its own balance. In another game I played, even the Fed Ex quests became killing quests, as the NPCs I would deliver the items to would invariably attack me.

That there's always more. Sad but true, regardless of how often you strip a forest, or how often you run through an area with an AoE spell/ability killing everything in your path, there's always going to be more. Within the hour, if not immediately. At one point, again in WoW, I went to a new realm (server) and created a new character. As soon as I got in, I noticed the starting area was literally knee-deep in creature carcasses. The players who'd gotten in before me weren't even bothering to loot the corpses, because they knew there'd always be more to replace what was wasted.


I know it seems like these three things are what makes a game, a game. But they're also things that each of us are absorbing with every minute we play, whether we realize it or not. I agree that game designers could take a page from reality, and I hope I implement things well when I finally get the game I've been designing playable. I agree that it's important for people to be able to feel as if they do make a difference, particularly because so few people believe they can in the real world. I hope that game designers, especially, will realize that catering to the loudest squabblers may not always be the best idea, particularly if it changes the heart of the game. And, of course, I hope that gamers everywhere will eventually be able to find whatever it is they most desire.

[Frith-Rae]

I enjoy both games...

I will pay, and have paid, for both games, at the same time...

I'm enjoying the intelligent discussion - let's try and keep it that way - about the pros and cons of each.

But noone is more stupid or more smart for liking one game over the other.

Let's not deginerate into Vanguard Beta General how about? >

[Tryagain]

ahh perhaps Velea. But I use the direct route and do not beat around the bush. The very premise of this thread is to insult those that play or have played WoW. I have seen now several threads that have the attitude...

"Well you must be from WoW go play it. Horizons is just fine the way it is" with usual veiled comments as to ones intelligence after having played such a game. I would hope that in your just moderator duty in pointing out my direct approach ( as you should have) that you and the other forum mods will be just as vigilant in dealing with the very example I just set out.

I will stand by my opinion and it is this

the old guard got nothing done with this game. The feedback given and in most cases greatly catered to failed and did not work. I would hope that vitrium has learned from its past mistakes and this time will take a more objective look at the feedback given and see if they can meld into their vision for the game. So yeah I guess I was to direct with Vah. But its simple Horizons is NOT fine the way it is. As well NO ONE wants it to become a copy of WoW. But vitrium can learn from what a successful MMO makes and what failures others have endured as well. He just happened to symbolize the very attitude that has nearly brought this game to its knee's and in fact has.

I said in another thread that there is more than one road to Rome. Vitrium can travel the road that fits the game horizons. Change is good and change is needed and can be done while keeping what Horizons is intact.

For me personally I played WoW I enjoyed it. It was and is a fantastic game in many respects. But on the same token a failure in several key areas. The community ? A direct result to the games popularity. For I have no doubt that if Horizons vastly more successful that its community would be bad enough in its own right.

Horizons itself... needs a lot of work. There is only so much Vitrium can do with the resources they have. I just hope they have the approach filters to see what will and will not work for HZ. This game can yet settle into a nice niche and still recover.

Right or wrong thats my opinion. You can be assured I now know what line the Forum moderators stand on and will do my best to not step on your toes.

Thanks

[Velea]

Just so I'm real clear here....

There's a difference between disparaging a group of players and disparaging someone else. If, for example, someone says "people who play WoW are a bunch of uber, hardcore, raid driven players, and I hate people like that and hope they never come to Horizons", that statement is a generalization which obviously doesn't apply to every WoW player. On the other hand, saying "Name, you are a wow player who is part of a bunch of (same words), and I hope you go back to WoW and stay away from Horizons" is a specific "shot" at Name, and thus not ok in my book. Make sense?

Again, we now return you to your WoW rant.....

[Vahrokh]

So one is allowed to rubbish another games players and forum posters and I am unable to bring this particular one into question ?

I did not question you.
I started this thread without you in mind as well.
For posting these kinds of posts I have been forum banned till Oct 15 off that fantastic game as well, so I have more time to post here ;P

For those of interest I have roamed Horizons for the last 40 or so days enjoyed NT immensely nice line of quests and things to do

And despite it's clear that Horizons could be considered in "alpha" (not even in beta, as in a beta you have most quests completed and most items in game), you still got 40 days of fun, compared to the about 15 (can make it in 12) you have in WoW to level 1-70.

Of course the game makers mission would be to greatly expand on Horizons but as you see, you can already do quite a lot of stuff.

This game is good enough that without ANY quest you can still play for years (even it'd be good to have the quests).

Unlike most other games you don't have a "preplanned" canned path to glory. You can really be viable and do fun stuff at any level, unlike many other games where either you are max level or you suck and don't even find good gear below that cap.

What a wonderful game this Horizons is , grind for 70 levels swap class and grind again , very entertaining , not !
People need to look in their own backyard before rubbishing their neighbours.

What a wonderful game this WoW is, grind for 70 levels drop character completely and get up another. Two completely uninteresting professions available (oh yeah you have the likes of fishing too, like sitting for 20 hours and click a key to level up, so fun) that you can buy and max out for 2-3k gold, most of the times creating CRAP that becomes totally obsolete as you raid your first days.

Are you a class who needs 4 stats to function? Enjoy your crafted item that to be "fair" against purples (aka the infamous "itemization formula") has only two stats and makes you a gimp unlike you raid 4 hours a day and grind consummables like a robot or buy gold off china farmers.

See, I looked in my own backyard, here is my armory (sadly showing off the stuff I use to PvP atm, which is just tier 5 parts + other stuff)

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...uros&n=Sahrokh

Feel free to browse my guild, we will be soon in the top 150 worldwide guilds, 4 bosses in Black Temple down hopefully 5 later today. My guild (not me I don't really care) arena team has > 2k arena rating as well, NOT using PvE items.

We have explored our backyard pretty well I'd say.

Guess what? If for some strange reason Vi contacted me that to have my dragon back off Unity *even without any gold and losing my 2 101x101 plots and their contents* I have to log in in WoW and delete everything and every character (I have several alts, each with more epics than *raiders* of other guilds can dream of), I would not wait for a second to do it.

Maybe you can't see why I, banned and flamed plenty even in Horizons, and even quit it for a while, and member of the "Horizons refugees" ("peculiar forum about Horizons" to say it ligthly) have this ABSOLUTE AND RELENTLESS love for this game, even if I would play it maybe 1 hour per day.

I do, and with me the other players who stuck here and to us it's just so obvious that is so.

Meanwhile, it's bad that WoW monopolized the MMO market so much. It's well coded, polished, has few bugs but imposes his presence on everything else.

Entire new games battle systems have been scrapped and replaced with WoW's clone, others copied the basic schemes and so on, but in the end...

WoW introduced nothing new (except druids as "non hybrid hybrid" concept but none else copied that) but best traditionally known MMO practices flavoured by ret-conned lore and huge financial support.

Hence the many other games are copying its "winning model" introducing nothing new bar boring copied features and quests and mechanisms.

Some months ago they made a convention of the major MMO developers, the conclusion was: "the new games will all have to be like WoW to have huge success".

I don't appreciate that, I appreciate how Horizons is a game of daring fools who dared creating something pioneeristic, it's a totally new approach (even today, you see how stagnating is the MMO market offer), it's social way of seeing players is amazing and unique.

Many things went bad, or worse. It's sort of normal, since it's a new and unexplored route. Who the heck else extensively implemented real time terrain altering capabilities?

With the unforeseen issues tied to that?

Who the hell even imagined to implement playable dragons? And frigging LAIRS?

DA was a dreamer unable to make dreams come true. But he dreamed.

DB was a fox guy able to make dreams come true but without seeing beyond his tomorrow (or better, to make it profitable beyond "live day by day"). Their legacy is here, for us to enjoy. Had the devil invented all of this, it's here for us to use anyway.

I wish I had myself 100M dollars, I'd invest in Horizons even today so that they can actually make an organized effort at making it good instead of having to live by the day, fixing top priorities else no food at the end of the month.

Well you must be from WoW go play it. Horizons is just fine the way it is"

The first part indeed comes up when you see an expecially nasty person like the many you see as you log in in any capital city in WoW.

The second denotes biased fanboism, but I am not sure that you should expect much different if the guy sticked with the game so much.

He just happened to symbolize the very attitude that has nearly brought this game to its knee's and in fact has.

I just happened to like the social part of this game, which is a win.
As I told you, I don't _care_ (in the sense I don't talk about) the technical part, it's not _my_ objective to uselessy lecture on the technical flaws of this or that.

Broken, bugged, reduced to ash and debris? Yeah, mkay, but I like the player base, regardless.

The community ? A direct result to the games popularity. For I have no doubt that if Horizons vastly more successful that its community would be bad enough in its own right.

Probably, but we can't talk like nothing happened and theorycraft about that. Regardless of why, now we have _this_ situation of good community and we are better keeping it.

Let's treasure the good we have got, and try at building around that, not against or regardless of that.

I want to see Horizons on steroids with 10k players, not Horizons the financially successful WoWized clone with 1M players.