With a view to ending the conflict...

[Kala]

Aamer, all I'm saying is that banning people isn't going to solve exploiting. Only fixing the capability of exploiting will stop it. Whether or not people should have been banned for exploiting doesn't enter into the picture.

[Vahrokh]

Aamer, all I'm saying is that banning people isn't going to solve exploiting. Only fixing the capability of exploiting will stop it. Whether or not people should have been banned for exploiting doesn't enter into the picture.

Actually, there's a third way. Banning people people won't solve exploiting as mentality (that comes from out of the game). Fixing the capability to exploit is impossible as well, since everything has little flaws ready to be abused by exploiters.

By banning exploiters, though, they reduce the people *in game* that has the mindset to seek for and use exploits, which is a more or less working compromise between removing exploiters and removing exploitable holes in the system.

[Aamer Khan]

Which is exactly the point.

[Fratricide]

Actually.. sometimes having exploiters will sometimes help those that can correct the working components to the game, actually find out what exploits there are in the game. These folks should however be testing these game "flaws" on the Blight server and passing the information on the "possible" exploits through the proper channels to be corrected.

Also... if potential exploits are found on the live servers... they should be also reported through the proper channels to be rectified. All those that continue to utilize exploits, should be banned until the exploit they were using to disrupt game play has been rectified.

While true... the novian harvesting may not technically be an exploit, but I personally would refuse any persons trying to sell me novians..

On the other hand.. has anyone thought of what else folks are buying up these fully built plots for? Every plot that has a storage structure on it potentially has resources and other harvested items in them... Perhaps the novians are just a bonus of sorts to the potential bounty these folks are purchasing up these plots to attain. Just think... you buy a 60x60 plot completely stacked with storage and crafting buildings.. you open up the T4 guildhall to find All sorts of T5 & T6 Tech components... and you say.. Woo hoo.. Jackpot.. ya snag all them outta the place... stick them on the connie that happens to be next door.. and commence to deconstruct the whole place.. Amazing that this place only cost you 3G.. and you got 45G worth of Components and now ya get to loot the novians ta boot... Nice indeed...

[Spartikus]

So now all of the sudden you think buying a plot for novians is an exploit? LOL. Let me get this straight.. Someone buying a plot legitimately through a plot sale is somehow an exploit if they dont maintain the plot or dont complete the structures on it... THAT is an exploit?

But it's just fine and dandy for players to use machines and equipment built by players years ago on a plot that was dormant years ago.. and *** forbid that plot goes up for sale and you may actually have to build your own machines on your own precious plot? *gasp*

Yes I can sure see how you would definitely want those massive plot buying exploiters punished to the fullest extent of the law.. HANG THEM HIGH!!!

Do you guys even get how possitively absurd you sound? Now you want to see people banned for buying plots? Because it's an exploit if they deconstruct the machines? *rolls eyes*

[Flindar]

WHOA!!!


ok... the login invisible thing is an exploit....

the gold duping method is an exploit....

the unlimited crafting levels in any trade is an exploit...

Harvesting an item that gives 10x the normal exp for that tier is an exploit...


Buying a plot with YOUR money and stripping it for the resources... and then reselling it and intending on profiting is NOT an EXPLOIT!!!!

Unless you live in china where the govt tells you what you can and cant do.... .this is called a free economy...THIS is the way people make money everyday...

If your so concerned about people buying a plot.... buy it yourself and protect it otherwise dont whine when someone else gets to it before you.

Also... novians... someone somewhere did the work...what your saying is that if I "HIRE" a person for a fee... or even do it myself... to build me something.. Then i DONT?? have the right to turn and sell it to another person at a profit?? Hogwash

[Guaran]

Aamer I think those are great ideas. The invis thing could be maybe 2 minutes, or upon first action performd or something.

For those who do not agree with the novian proposed idea (since the existing possibilities were not the original intent), it's only a week. I mean cmon, thats not bad at all. In one example, someone said they had 3 guild-built properties that they want to retain the resources.. If you knew ahead of time that you needed to sell those to your novian mule and it would take 1 week per plot, that is easily adjusted to before those plots go for general sale or reclamation. Simple planning. I agree with what you would be doing and I would likely do the same thing if I was in your place. You can retain some of the work you and your guildies put in, saving those efforts from the novian farmers. But again, it's only a week. I think it's completely fair. The flip side would be if free-trial accounts could buy plots, then this limit could possibly still be worked around. IMHO free trial accounts have no business buying plots...

[Flindar]

on Banning Exploiters...


I think exploiting ruins the game no doubt.... but comon people.... Even if you are against them and detest people that use them .... hasnt there been times youve said to yourself "man i wish i could find a easier way to do this" and even been tempted at times .... although not carrying through... but tempted to go the "easier" route.... Unless your the Pope! or an angel in human form... we've all had these temptations... and even some may fall victim to a weakness at some point in their lives......It's just human nature...

Repeat offenders... sure ban em... but remember theres no definite line...what is and what isnt an exploit after all is not the same to everyone... theres a fine line between....Exploit and "Wow i just found a way to do double the work in half the time"
noone can claim to be a cardinal saint... use better judgement when doling out regulations

[gopher65]

That's true for many things Flindar. That's why I don't consider people constantly using the Purple Necroflies to take school after school to level 100 exploiters. Or even novian hunters. Or campers, or farmers. On occasion those actions make life difficult for everyone else, but as you say, everyone is tempted to do things like that on occasion. On a personal note, I know I gained level 33-36 of mage being PLed at the Crimson Scrouge way back when, and I recently gained levels 97.75 to 98.5 of druid at the purple necroflies, and levels 10.5 to 14.5 of scout at the flame blights... but that's pretty much it for me and being PLed. In general I find being PLed so boring that I'd rather solo my way through a class, even when I have an overly high rating.

Finding the quickest way to engage in normal game mechanics is not exploiting, even though some of us may not like it.

But when you find things like:

1) Instantly taking every craft class to level 100,
2) A way to make yourself completely invulnerable to damage,

...I think that no one in their right mind wouldn't IMMEDIATELY decide that those were cheats. If they do not report it immediately, or at the very least stop using it right away, they are exploiters.

[Vahrokh]

Even if you are against them and detest people that use them .... hasnt there been times youve said to yourself "man i wish i could find a easier way to do this" and even been tempted at times .... although not carrying through...

Well, there's not just those who try their best to find exploiting ways and those who don't exploit because of some "good manners teaching" imposed by parents or something.

I would not exploit, not because "it's something unfair to do", but because I HATE exploiting.

Just look at my signature, unchanged thru years, I had all the exploitable spells or could go for easy hoard but I can't force myself to exploit and then feel like a miserable loser.
And this not because of being saint of anything, FAR from it, it's just a personal distaste.

what is and what isnt an exploit after all is not the same to everyone... theres a fine line between....

Those sentences border connivance, making it sound like it's a sort of unavoidable "sin", that "everyone can fall".

Nope, they fall in exploiting and BAM! Out of the game. Go draw fine lines elsewhere.

Wow i just found a way to do double the work in half the time"

Too bad, in games there are easy and linear mechanisms. I.e. "time sinks" are here for... well... making you take time.

If you find a brilliant way to save on 10% of the time because you teched your stuff...
fine.

If you find a brilliant way to save on 50% of the time because you discovered how teching a tech that should not go there... cool, but expect for it to be fixed, nerfed and possibly rolled back.

If you find a brilliant way to save on 50% of the time because you make the client crash during porting (just making examples) and then do it again and again, you deserve to be warned and then banned if you keep doing it.

That's why I don't consider people constantly using the Purple Necroflies to take school after school to level 100 exploiters

This is the second case I listed above, it's a "brilliant way" but will be nerfed afaik.

[Aamer Khan]

The comments in this thread are very enlightening.

The facts are often disposed of in an effort to establish a sides argument.

The easy way to "reason" on any of this is as follows...

Did the developers change a mechanic in some way to limit it or it's effect on the game?

If YES, then they are telling us that THEY want the game to be different to offset either other mechanics effects, or to balance it according to their view. ( remember we play their game )

If NO, then they are saying mechanics are fine as it, enjoy playing our game.

Anyone using mechanic in unintended ways, ( Unintended meaning: contrary to what is the stated purpose for the mechanic ), is an exploiter.

According to the EULA and posted rules, those that were banned broke the rules for proper play in Horizons. I know they didn't like getting banned. But it's not like they didn't know. The developers have an obligation to the players AND themselves to remove anything that disrupts enjoying the game.

And at this point, I totally believe that the novian issue is a "self-correcting" error.

[LaughingOtter]

the novian issue is a "self-correcting" error.

Didn't I say that two pages ago?

[Kala]

For the record, I think exploiting is wrong and those doing it should be punished.

However, I also think that unless the ways you can exploit get fixed, there are going to be a lot of people getting punished. Even if you ban folks for exploiting, there will always be more people looking for the "easy button," regardless of whether or not it's an okay use of the game mechanic.

[Steelclaw]

Anyone using mechanic in unintended ways, ( Unintended meaning: contrary to what is the stated purpose for the mechanic ), is an exploiter.

According to the EULA and posted rules, those that were banned broke the rules for proper play in Horizons.

Let me refine that a little bit.

If a game mechanic is being used in an unintended fashion, it is NOT exploiting. In fact, let's just stop abusing that word altogether. It should only be applied to uses and activities that the devs have said are exploits. It's not the players' place to declare that an activity is an exploit.

You should be asking whether a certain activity is permitted, not pointing fingers and going on witch hunts.

As a player, what matters is whether or not a dev/wm/csr tells you to stop doing something. If you do not arrive at a resolution that changes their mind and continue to do so anyway, YOU DESERVE TO BE BANNED.

[Aria]

As far as plots/novians go...:

To lose Enkmars plot on Order and have it bulldozed and then abandoned would be a heavy blow for those working elm among various other resources found in the Harro area.

To lose the ability to work with my friends/guildmates as far as plot rebuilding and applying novians goes would be incredibly frustrating. For example, my boyfriend and I recently moved our plots from Lerena to Forest Guard. We wanted more, and better organized, spaces. We switched plot ownerships several times in that first day applying our novians to the two different plots depending on who needed what, and what structure was deemed more important to pop first. Exploiting? Abusing game mechanics? Hurting the community? I think not.

For those who do not want to see certain plots harvested for novians and are very concerned about the community I think should list said plots and organize their community to protect said plots in the upcoming auctions. With as much time spent writing about it in this thread I'd say the valuable plots could've been tagged and marked for salvation by now. And it has been done - on order a few guilds (can't remember names) took action and saved the plots near the slate in Snowfall. I applaud their efforts. While you or I may not have the coin to do so hardly means that noone on the shard you play on does either.

I don't want to be constricted to transfering plot ownership to once a week - I don't want raw resources when deconning - and I don't want to see certain plots (OR lairs! like the lair near the cobalt in Dralk, so handy!) be deconned and abandoned. Certainly there is some way to balance the individual and group interest.

[Flindar]

Let me refine that a little bit.

If a game mechanic is being used in an unintended fashion, it is NOT exploiting. In fact, let's just stop abusing that word altogether. It should only be applied to uses and activities that the devs have said are exploits. It's not the players' place to declare that an activity is an exploit.

You should be asking whether a certain activity is permitted, not pointing fingers and going on witch hunts.

As a player, what matters is whether or not a dev/wm/csr tells you to stop doing something. If you do not arrive at a resolution that changes their mind and continue to do so anyway, YOU DESERVE TO BE BANNED.

AMEN!!

This is the Dev's game... they are building it...they control it and own it... simply put "exploiting" Is in the hands of the Devs to define... and since we players are not the programmers we must rely on the devs to determine if something is functioning inside its intended use.....Then it is their duty to warn players.... and take action on offenders after that fact...

btw... to my above posting opposer... luckily we live in a just world were most people that screw up are given the opportunity to redeem themselves and not in yours where they are put to death...

[Vengeance]

AMEN!!

This is the Dev's game... they are building it...they control it and own it... simply put "exploiting" Is in the hands of the Devs to define... and since we players are not the programmers we must rely on the devs to determine if something is functioning inside its intended use.....Then it is their duty to warn players.... and take action on offenders after that fact...

btw... to my above posting opposer... luckily we live in a just world were most people that screw up are given the opportunity to redeem themselves and not in yours where they are put to death...

Well, I have to agree with with Steelclaw's responce. The people on Chaos recently banned by VI were pretty much the same people banned by EII. They were provided a second chance to change their ways. They failed to do so and had those accounts banned. I think it is awesome.

I would now like to see VI correct the exploits. My first suggestion would be to remove invisibility completely from the game. Players have a recall option when they log in. If you log out in a dangerous spot, I would suggest recalling. Lets take away the tools for exploiting.

As for the novian ninja's, If you want to buy a plot and decon it and resell it, it is not an exploit. It may disrupt/hurt crafting and trade in a region, when useful shops are lost, but it isnt an exploit. People may not like it but this is one of those things where alot of stuff is broken, why fix something that isn't.

[Shirewood]

Are they permanently banned for life? If so, will they empty all their belongings on their plots and put the novians in their vault and allow us to buy the banned people's plots?

[LaughingOtter]

Are they permanently banned for life? If so, will they empty all their belongings on their plots and put the novians in their vault and allow us to buy the banned people's plots?

I doubt it. The properties will probably go up for auction intact, like all the others. Should fetch a good price, I think....

[Kala]

Well, I have to agree with with Steelclaw's responce. The people on Chaos recently banned by VI were pretty much the same people banned by EII. They were provided a second chance to change their ways. They failed to do so and had those accounts banned. I think it is awesome.

Oddly enough, those people who got banned were behaving significantly better in the Marketplace channel than they had been in the past. (I can't speak for elsewhere, as I got bored hunting the boss mobs to extinction and wanted to work on other things.) So...how exactly did they fail to change their ways? Answering questions, crafting things for people for tips only...yeah, sounds like true evil to me.

And for those hovering on the sidelines, waiting to snatch up old plots... Shame on you. Quit acting like vultures swooping in after the kill. I'm sure there are better plots out there that would be more helpful to the community to own, than a couple of large plots near NO resources and NO portal out. Unless, of course, it's not the location of plots, but rather the T6 novians and possibility of "phat lewt" that you're drooling so unbecomingly over?

If you want be community-builders, then start doing it and stop pointing fingers.

If you want to lust over the plots, fine. Just stop gloating so publicly over it.