I was wondering ...

[Salis]

A post in my other "lower the resources on lair structures, please"-thread
made me wonder about something.

I know bipeds have going for them that in order to construct on their plots they require to level 5 schools.
However each and every school of those has one or two skills which levels them 10 points in said skills. By leveling all of the relevant schools they can actually obtain an 10 skillpoints/level for all the skills.

A dragon on the other hand has it easier by only needing to level one school.
However we lack the 10 skillpoints/level. Thus Bipeds outclass us in every way possible.
Now mostly this isn't a big issue, you need to level up a bit more and you will be optimal to. What is a problem however is Tier 6. Since we cannot get 10 points per level in Dragon crafter, we lack majorly in becoming optimal.

I think this issue could be tackled in 2 ways if it's deemed needed that is:
1. Give dragon crafters + 10 or +9 (we have our crafting quests who provide an extra 10) per level gained as a dragon crafter
2. Let dragons level dragon crafting to 120 instead of limiting them to 100.
But make sure we do get our crafting quests XI and XII.

I know we can change shift our stat points around for some extra skill points. and we can boost them with some specific crafting scales. However shifting them around all the time doesn't benefit lairshaping a lot.

So with this post I would like to launch a discussion about this:
How do bipeds feel about this and what say you as a dragon?

Salis

[Starmind]

Well, I'm a dragon and you asked for biped replies, but I would just like to say is that this has been suggested hundreds of times and ignored just as many.

WHY??? do they think they have to nerf dragon crafting so bad? And don't give me the nonsense about dragons being "the ultimate fighter" because a maxxed dragon can't beat a maxxed biped that's well played... EVER...

[Deth]

Then I guess you never read about any of the fights that have gone on before. A Dragon can beat Biped, I think they said the Dragon won about 50% or so against one of the megapeds. The key is the triple teched Scale with the tech I forget the name of all the time. The one that all dragons what brought back.

Which is why I fight so hard to see it not brought back because I want Dragons balanced on dragon abilities not on a scale tech that forces all dragons to get a triple teched scale and go the melee path as it only procs off a melee attack.

As to the reason we have slightly lower skill is to balance the fact that we only have 1 class to level vs 5. Dragons are designed to be different. Now if they added Dragon prestige classes I could see them allowing more spec point but I would also like to see them doing that differently from biped. I have an idea for how it could be done for dragons so we could multiclass but differently from Bipeds I really need to write it up and post it for feed back. But my basic idea Is that each Dragon Multiclass after the first is limited to a certain level based off how many other classes you have. It works out well for adventure classes needs work for craft classes I think.

[Salis]

Actually Starmind I want input from both biped perspective aswell as dragon perspective.

Salis

[Salis]

As to the reason we have slightly lower skill is to balance the fact that we only have 1 class to level vs 5.

Well yes, but they can level 5 and get all of it. Give me five to level and I won't complain.
The fact is we cannot level 5 schools to get 10 skillpoints on all. And that strikes me as unfair at the later stage of the game (Tier VI).

Salis

[Starmind]

The whole "Dragons are different" reason for no multiclassing of dragons went out the window soon as lairshaping came out. It is no longer a valid argument.

Just thought I'ld let you know

[Deth]

Ummmmm why? Just because we got the ability to build something completely different from a biped? Should I also break out the very old Dragons are meant to be harder argument also? Oh wait that went away once megapids started appearing right?

I think, has been 8 months since I have logged in and work and I am on vista right now so can not log in, But do we not get 10 a level on our Lair Crafting skills? Which are a one class set of skills. Another reason for it is all the people that cry they want their bipeds to help their dragons craft their lairs. Which they can by crafting the Basic resources for them then they craft the building blocks. But that does leave us solo Dragons out in the cold.

As to the lack of skill at higher level, the Devs have said they wish higher Tier work to be harder and rarer and to require lots more teamwork. So this could be one of their ways of forcing this.

[Death-knell]

Well as a dragon I haven't been real unhappy about how crafting is done. I do think the raw materials required is a bit out of whack but then the devs have always turned a deaf ear towards that.

As to the bipeds have 5 classes to level and we just one. thats a joke...they have one class to level and then can power level the other 4 off that one and the others. With the way lairshaping works now with XP gains only coming from finished products and applying said finished products it's significantly harder to level lairshaper. But then it has always been a tough road for dragons....leaky hoard anyone? *G*

[C`gan]

Dragon lairshaping was a test idea to promote a separated skill set. The idea was originally to see how well it would go over to have one class process raw resources and have another process finished goods. The reasoning behind this was to make miner and gatherer useful classes once again. They are different in that they ONLY make experience with the first processing, not with finished goods. So, to carry the lairshaping through to the biped classes it would mean that blacksmith, fitter, jeweler, tinker, armorer, and weaponsmith, for example, would NOT get experience from metal bars, but would from their finished goods while miner would ONLY continue to get experience making metal bars.

See the distinction? It would make miner and gatherer stronger classes in that they would be needed for doing the first processing.

[Dhalin]

Then I guess you never read about any of the fights that have gone on before. A Dragon can beat Biped, I think they said the Dragon won about 50% or so against one of the megapeds. The key is the triple teched Scale with the tech I forget the name of all the time. The one that all dragons what brought back.

Yet, without those special teched scales that only a few can make, the dragons probably get pwned nearly every time, right? Right? Saying that one rare, obscure item/tech/ability can make you win 50% (which is what it should be!) against your opponents, is kinda dumb.

If the game were truly balanced, a Legendary Dragon (Lv100 Ancient with those teched scales) vs Legendary Biped (with all of the adv. schools at Lv100) should be exactly 50% Win Rate.

Now, if we did away with that special tech, or nerfed it, then we would have to increase a dragon's strength so that the win rate is roughly 50%. There's no reason the strongest of the bipeds should be able to win against the strongest of the dragons more than 50% of the time.

But, without that rare and obscure scale tech, the dragon doesn't stand much of a chance against the biggest, baddest "megapeds".

Which is why I fight so hard to see it not brought back because I want Dragons balanced on dragon abilities not on a scale tech that forces all dragons to get a triple teched scale and go the melee path as it only procs off a melee attack.

How about making dragons a bit more strong, so that a Lv100 ancient with T5-Normal Teched Scales can compete with a megaped? That way we wouldn't NEED those special/rare/no longer existant techs, now would we?

[Deth]

Thats why every time I see someone request that tech be brought back I post that I do not want to see it back so that use dragons that are caster and or choose or can not get it can be balanced for as a dragon. I think techs should be balanced against a class not a class balanced with a tech.

My comment was just about the fact that it was untrue that a dragon could not beat a Biped.

Now as to balancing a dragon verses a biped it gets harder. A Ancient Dragon should be balanced vs a X classed biped. How many classes I am not sure. Then extra classes need to be added, and dragons allowed to multiclass in some different way then biped, at least I think so as I like the similar but different that we have from Bipeds.

I would like to see more multiclassing for Dragons but in a way that lets us accent how we want top play, be it caster, melee or hybrid.

[Dhalin]

Well, IMO, the Strongest Dragon should be 50% win against Strongest Biped.

What exactly is a "Strongest Dragon"?

I'd have to say, one that is pursuing what their path was intended to do (Melee for Lunus, Caster for Helian.) and have Lv80 T5 Normal-Teched scales that accent the appropriate abilities for their playstyle, and such.

And of course, being a Lv100 Ancient.

That's as strong as you can get as a dragon, that's as strong as the game allows you to get, no matter what, unless you get biped buffs casted on you, or you chug potions, or use crystals, or what not, but those are all consumable.

Now, if we made the "Strongest Dragon" 50% win vs, say, a 5-Lv100 classed Biped, what about the 8-Lv100 classed Bipeds? Why should they be stronger than a "strongest dragon"? Because they put more time into levelling their character?

The problem is, that dragon would have put the more time in, if he could have, but he just plain can't, because he hit his hard limit. You just can't go any higher than that, period. Well, there is hoard, but that caps at a value. Maybe we should remove the hoard caps for Lv100? And just make it increase as you get more hoard?

I dunno, but surely there's got to be a way to equalize dragons vs. multi-Lv100 bipeds...

[Vermithraxx]

As a dragon crafter who doesn't care about melee at all, *I* personally would like to be able to work Tier 6 materials with some semblance of optimal ability.

I agree that only 8 pts per lvl is far too low and especially now that the game has advanced to lvl 100 needs to be rebalanced.

[Deth]

Well an easy way, in my eyes anyway would be to lower the power of the biped. (thank the *** I am a dragon and can resist the flames I will get. ) The one way I see that hopefully they do in time, is class type limiting of skills. I.E. Mage/Arcane abilities and spells are masterable only be classes that are marked as Mage/Arcane, Cleric/"Divine" abilities and spells are masterable only be classes that are marked Cleric/"Divine", ect.

That way you do not end up with a plate wearing bomb casting, Healing machines that can do every thing and then some. That way a biped could master all of the classes they want but would be required to change to a class type that they would want to play, either solo or in groups. This is something that they figured out long ago that they made a mistake with and hopefully some day will step up and start the long painful path of converting too.

Then they can look at if they wish, say with epic classes, allowing some of the cross type use that they have now back into the game but with a much more controlled method.

I just hope they do not try to fix dragons by using the broken method of multiclassing Bipeds have currently.

[Dhalin]

Mayhaps they should look at other games and how THEY did Multiclassing.

But then if we made any big changes, we risk re-enacting the SWG debacle.

But the more I look at FFXI's Multi-classing system, the more I think it had some nice ideas Hz should have considered from the start. You can level all 18 of FFXI's classes, but yet, you don't become this uber super powered force...

[Deth]

Verm I understand your desires and have some of it also, but I also understand why the Devs have it the way they have it. It is a combination of trying to force teamwork, which some look on as good some as bad, and wanting to keep high level content rare and seen as a great accomplishment.

Sadly they have set up Bipeds in such a way that it is not nearly as hard as it if for dragons, Honestly I think their desire was to have both types to be more in line with the way dragons are and a few dedicated? or stubborn? people that worked through miner or gather.

I personally would like to see craft classes for dragons that we are allowed to take only one of that allow us to spec in a type of resource and be much better at it. I.E. Master Dragon Stone Crafter say to get better at working stone but we can not take Master Dragon Metal Crafter, Master Dragon Gem Crafter, or Master Dragon Essence Crafter. But again I am for similar but different. I am just not sure what all "abilities" that could go in it but for an extra +1 gathering, processing and maybe transmuting that would not make the bipeds mad or make Miner useless.

[Deth]

Mayhaps they should look at other games and how THEY did Multiclassing.

But then if we made any big changes, we risk re-enacting the SWG debacle.

But the more I look at FFXI's Multi-classing system, the more I think it had some nice ideas Hz should have considered from the start. You can level all 18 of FFXI's classes, but yet, you don't become this uber super powered force...

Yes it is probably the closest to our system, but you have to remember our system is what has kept the biped here. The limited by type is a close approximation, at least I think so to that that still lets people level as many classes as they wish and limits power much greater then now. And makes more since to me.

I think it will be much easier to balance a class and mobs when you know that the most power an Arcane caster is based of X classes, or your Divine casters is based off of X classes, or your Arcane Warrior hybrid is based off ex classes. You still get more power at the "end game" but adding more class types, which you do not with FFXI's Multi-classing system.

Note I have not dealt with the FFXI's Multi-classing system system beyound knowing you can have two active classes, so I do not know how the abilities cross, but from what I do know I personally like the system here but think it does need to be limited some.

Also with a typed linked system they could reduce the level penalty to only include classes that do share a type. So effectively if some one maxes all the Arcane classes they could then "start over" from scratch with a Divine type and start at, dang it I forget the name now, Level 1 "rank 1" cleric and level that type up to max "rank" with all the divine classes, effectively playing the game again and enjoying all the new content added since they were leveling up the Arcane type. Or have different ranked class types to join in events with all in one toon.

[Dhalin]

Not to derail the thread, but as Deth says he doesn't know much of FFXI's multiclassing system, and to mayhaps throw out some ideas/insight on how Other people handle the said things, I'll take a bit to explain how their system works.

At any time, you can return to your "home", and talk to the moogle there. (think, chubby furry white creature with little dragon wings on its back and a pom-pom on its head). The said moogle handles all of the things in your home, from gardening, to furniture, to your delivery box, your storage as well.

He also changes your current School (Job, they call it in that game).

Any time you wish, you can come back to him and change your main and your subjob, to any of the basic jobs, plus any advance jobs you have unlocked. To unlock an advanced job, you must be level 30 and do a quest.

But anyways, I digress a bit. For this example, I am going to assume we have Level 20 Warrior, Level 15 White Mage, Level 15 Red Mage, and Level 10 monk.

Example A:

I set my main job as Warrior, and my sub as Monk:

Level 20 Warrior/Level 10 Monk

Let's say I switch them:

Level 10 Monk / Level 05 Warrior (it temporarily caps the sub job to 1/2 your main level.)

Now, let's say I decide I want to level White Mage today. It is 15. So I could do:

WHM15/WAR07
WHM15/MNK07
WHM15/BLM07

So... what's the difference?

A WHM/WAR has slightly stronger physical attacks, plus the Job Ability "Provoke" (which is learned at level 5 warrior).

A WHM/MNK has more Vitality, and HP.

A WHM/BLM has some black magic spells, more Intelligence, and more MP.

The only flaw with FFXI's subjob system, is Skill. A White Mage does not get natural Dark, or Elemental Magic skill for example. The max level is Level 75, right? This means your Subjob will never be above 37. Try casting an Elemental or Dark-based spell on a Level 50+ mob, and you will get resisted like crazy, because your Elemental and Dark skill is limited to what a Level 37 Black Mage's skill would be. This hinders your abilities some, and makes some jobs undesirable as subjobs, but this system does do something nice:

In Horizons, if you have a Level 100 warrior, you can change to, say, a Level 1 cleric, go out, and kill mobs left and right to earn loads of exp, right?

In FFXI, going out as a Level 1 White Mage with a Lv75 Warrior, you are WHM01/WAR01 ... you don't fight like a Level50some character, having the HP of a Level 75-some character, etc. This encourages better grouping, as those without max-level jobs aren't discriminated against.

[Jaraiden]

I know bipeds have going for them that in order to construct on their plots they require to level 5 schools.
However each and every school of those has one or two skills which levels them 10 points in said skills. By leveling all of the relevant schools they can actually obtain an 10 skillpoints/level for all the skills.

A dragon on the other hand has it easier by only needing to level one school.
However we lack the 10 skillpoints/level. Thus Bipeds outclass us in every way possible.
Now mostly this isn't a big issue, you need to level up a bit more and you will be optimal to. What is a problem however is Tier 6. Since we cannot get 10 points per level in Dragon crafter, we lack majorly in becoming optimal.

One step at a time.

First, VI should complete their revamping of crafting to all crafting classes, and soon, with most of the XP gained from the primary role of that class (vs. secondary crafting).

Second, evaluate the overall perceived "grind" after the new lair construction requirements are in place.

Third . . . rather easy, just have a high level lairshaping quest (not task, an actual quest) where lairshaping (and crystalshaping) skill points are earned by providing or applying resources onto Chiconis and Dralk projects. Better yet have it in like 2 parts - level 40ish and level 90ish.

Fourth . . . . just like plots have been through a revamp (Oct 2005ish) and lots of decorating fluff added since, VI needs to continue such with lairs within lore. Oh and balance that with more racial styles (such as Dryad trees, underground dwarven areas, etc.).

The key is to try to equate the "buffs" from biped spells and armor/jewelry slots to primal spells and scale slots. And as most clearly know, dragons have fewer buffs and much fewer slots (esp. below level 90).

So crafting from level 101 to 120 is, in theory, a far ways off. Since tier VI is in that range, it should be challenging. Perhaps adjustments are needed on "both" ends - dragon lair crafting and biped construction schools - in light of that concept.

[Deth]

First, VI should complete their revamping of crafting to all crafting classes, and soon, with most of the XP gained from the primary role of that class (vs. secondary crafting).

Just so you know I bugged the devs a lot last year and then they said that it was not a sure thing for the biped craft classes to ever be changed to like dragon lair shapers are done. I just hope that they do go like that as well as add some complexity to the construction Items like we dragons now have.

One thing that I am sure will make Dragons cry if they do start converting the other classes is that as a Dragon Crafter we will no longer get XP for working Raw Resources but just for Spells, Scales and Claws. Something to remember. /8->