MMORPG engine completion?

[CallakDW]

Ok, one of the biggest grips I've allways had about HZ is that as far as I am conserned the engine was never really completed.

There are some basic world realism things that I've wanted to see implemented in the game since I first started playing, and these are things that you see in every other MMORPG, or RPG game.

(Forgive me if some of these have been corrected, but I doubt any of them have been.)

These are as follows:
1) Monster clipping.
When I last left the game, monsters could walk through walls, up mountains, and go pretty much anywhere they wanted. Does anyone else think this sounds right?

2) Fall damage.
Plain and simple, fall off a cliff-- "Ow... I think I broke somthing." As the hobbits would say.

3) Dungeons.
I've heard Vi is working to continue advancements here, hope it's correct.

There are a few more things, but these are more likely to have been corrected allready, and I want to spend some time in game before I make a point about them.

[Cromos_Swordbreaker]

1) Monster clipping.
When I last left the game, monsters could walk through walls, up mountains, and go pretty much anywhere they wanted. Does anyone else think this sounds right?

this is because there is no world on server... to my understanding npc's only x,y,z cords ( I maybe wrong...)

2) Fall damage.
Plain and simple, fall off a cliff-- "Ow... I think I broke somthing." As the hobbits would say.

that wouldn't be much of a problem to implement.

3) Dungeons.

I doubt this will happen unless they use a totaly different/new engine.

im not critisizing or anything of the such.. it just my opinion on how things currently are

[Deth]

There is a "Dungeons" that was being worked on. It is like the Void fro the dragons. It is just in a different part of the world, with the walls so high that the mobs can not walk through them. At least thats what I assume.

[Cromos_Swordbreaker]

ah... I forgot that.

[Fratricide]

1) Monster clipping.
When I last left the game, monsters could walk through walls, up mountains, and go pretty much anywhere they wanted. Does anyone else think this sounds right?

Yes.. monsters still walk where they want.. up vertical faces, through buildings, etc..

2) Fall damage.
Plain and simple, fall off a cliff-- "Ow... I think I broke somthing." As the hobbits would say.

Falling damage is still not there, but that might be tied in with the monsters being able to climb vertical faces too..

3) Dungeons.
I've heard Vi is working to continue advancements here, hope it's correct.

Personally... I don't feel that dungeons absolutely need to be done in the realm of Istaria. There are places that are already a sort of dungeon, but do we really need Horizons to be like nearly every other MMO out there with their dungeons? Anyway...

[Dhalin]

These are as follows:
1) Monster clipping.
When I last left the game, monsters could walk through walls, up mountains, and go pretty much anywhere they wanted. Does anyone else think this sounds right?

This is true for nearly any MMORPG. I've seen it in FFXI, and WoW does something worse: Mobs become INVINCIBLE if they can't reach you. They Evade -everything-, 100%, if the game detects you using an "Exploit" (like, shooting arrows from a high perch. That's not an Exploit, its called "Tactics" in my book).

2) Fall damage.
Plain and simple, fall off a cliff-- "Ow... I think I broke somthing." As the hobbits would say.

While this does seem unrealistic, it would make things like Tempered Scale quests a bit harder to do, if you took damage while falling off of that floating island...

Now, let me add my own things:

1). Please fix the mob spawns! I don't care how you do it, just Do It already. I hate the fact that mobs don't spawn until some spawn object detects your presence. Sometimes these are broken, and mobs won't spawn *at all* until you've been there 10+ minutes. It really sucks for dragons and their ability quests, dunno how many times I needed to kill "X Mobs", go to the area, and they refused to spawn, or worse, all spawn ontop of me, because I have no way of knowing where the edge of their spawn area is, to slowly approach them safely.

2). Instant/Endless Respawns:

Please fix this, too. Whether it is the Ogres/Pygmies on Scorpion Island, or some areas like the Dead Bowl, mobs respawn instantly, which means you can kill and kill and kill and kill and never clean the area out, because mobs respawn faster than you can kill them. Please fix this, as it makes some quests/endeavors ridiculously hard.

[CallakDW]

This is true for nearly any MMORPG. I've seen it in FFXI, and WoW does something worse: Mobs become INVINCIBLE if they can't reach you. They Evade -everything-, 100%, if the game detects you using an "Exploit" (like, shooting arrows from a high perch. That's not an Exploit, its called "Tactics" in my book).

This may occur as an occasional glitch in other games where creatures walk through stuff, but most other games I've seen, they actually have to map their way around obsticals. As far as I can tell in HZ there is no mechanism in place at all to prevent monsters from walking through walls and up mountains.

I agree with the Exploit problem with WoW. I think it was a bad solution to what Blizzard felt was a problem. But we aren't talking about WoW anyway.

While this does seem unrealistic, it would make things like Tempered Scale quests a bit harder to do, if you took damage while falling off of that floating island...

I disagree with how many people feel that sertain things shouldn't be fixed because they happen to be exploiting them to make their game life easier personally. This is also the situation with the patchy water that fails to load quickly and looks gawd awful to a dragon in flight. Bipeds in sertain areas use this to their advantage because they can walk through the water areas without drowning. I remember a day when this didn't happen.

Now, let me add my own things:

1). Please fix the mob spawns! I don't care how you do it, just Do It already. I hate the fact that mobs don't spawn until some spawn object detects your presence. Sometimes these are broken, and mobs won't spawn *at all* until you've been there 10+ minutes. It really sucks for dragons and their ability quests, dunno how many times I needed to kill "X Mobs", go to the area, and they refused to spawn, or worse, all spawn ontop of me, because I have no way of knowing where the edge of their spawn area is, to slowly approach them safely.

2). Instant/Endless Respawns:

Please fix this, too. Whether it is the Ogres/Pygmies on Scorpion Island, or some areas like the Dead Bowl, mobs respawn instantly, which means you can kill and kill and kill and kill and never clean the area out, because mobs respawn faster than you can kill them. Please fix this, as it makes some quests/endeavors ridiculously hard.

The spawning issues in this game are a very sad story. There was a time when spawning worked awsome, I miss those days. They even had boss mobs that wandered around and collected followers and attacked towns.

This was all borked when they made an effort to downsize their hardware in order to conserve money (as I understand it anyway). The current system that spawns when a player is presant is far too slow and far too unpredictable. You can't use tactics or be careful, because most of the time the mobs are popping in on top of you where you just cleared them away, or where you went to fight them.

[Dhalin]

This may occur as an occasional glitch in other games where creatures walk through stuff, but most other games I've seen, they actually have to map their way around obsticals. As far as I can tell in HZ there is no mechanism in place at all to prevent monsters from walking through walls and up mountains.

In FFXI, mobs can scale sheer 90-degree angle cliffs to reach you, if you should shoot an arrow at a mob below you. They have always done this, and mobs can also walk right through closed doors, even though you can't. This is working as intended in that game; the devs, like in WoW, believe it would be too much of an advantage if you could shoot mobs from above a cliff and not have to worry about the mob attacking in return. I still think it is stupid, but oh well.

I disagree with how many people feel that sertain things shouldn't be fixed because they happen to be exploiting them to make their game life easier personally. This is also the situation with the patchy water that fails to load quickly and looks gawd awful to a dragon in flight. Bipeds in sertain areas use this to their advantage because they can walk through the water areas without drowning. I remember a day when this didn't happen.

I agree with not using the Water exploit, but the Tempered Scale quests... no reason why we shouldn't be able to use that floating island to get quicker access to V-whatshisname's cave near the Western Deadlands.

Especially with the fact you have to go to his cave at least 2, if not 3 times per scale quest. To have to walk there, from another teleport would make that quest take a ridiculous amount of time to complete. And you cannot fly there, as the quests are HATCHLING-ONLY.

The spawning issues in this game are a very sad story. There was a time when spawning worked awsome, I miss those days. They even had boss mobs that wandered around and collected followers and attacked towns.

This was all borked when they made an effort to downsize their hardware in order to conserve money (as I understand it anyway). The current system that spawns when a player is presant is far too slow and far too unpredictable. You can't use tactics or be careful, because most of the time the mobs are popping in on top of you where you just cleared them away, or where you went to fight them.

Then I suggest that we revert the mobs back to the way they used to be. Since we are only running 3 servers now, and we have a lower population for now, how about turning mob spawns the way they used to be? Maybe not as far as to get boss mobs grabbing followers, but at least have the Quest Mobs being out, so that one can hunt things like Pygmies and Ogres, and not have everything pop ontop of them suddenly?

Or.... at the VERY least.... get rid of the Instant Respawns. Seriously.

[CallakDW]

Just to elaberate, when I say the spawn system was awsome, I mean you went to an area where they were allready wandering close by. It seemed like over wider areas than they spawn now too. For those who have actually played WoW, it's a perfect example of how this should operate.

The big problem is they should allready be there when you arrive, and should not be spaced so close and spawn back so fast that you can't beat an area down.

[Deth]

I agree with not using the Water exploit, but the Tempered Scale quests... no reason why we shouldn't be able to use that floating island to get quicker access to V-whatshisname's cave near the Western Deadlands.

Especially with the fact you have to go to his cave at least 2, if not 3 times per scale quest. To have to walk there, from another teleport would make that quest take a ridiculous amount of time to complete. And you cannot fly there, as the quests are HATCHLING-ONLY.

I personally think if they do add falling damage Dragons and dryads should not take falling damage as both could "glide" down. I practiced "flying" from every one of the towers of magic in my hatching days and would not be flying as well as I do now if I had not had such practice.

[CallakDW]

In FFXI, mobs can scale sheer 90-degree angle cliffs to reach you, if you should shoot an arrow at a mob below you. They have always done this, and mobs can also walk right through closed doors, even though you can't. This is working as intended in that game; the devs, like in WoW, believe it would be too much of an advantage if you could shoot mobs from above a cliff and not have to worry about the mob attacking in return. I still think it is stupid, but oh well.

Well in HZ if they can't get to you they run away. But they still wander through stuff.

[Dhalin]

Yeah, I know what you mean... Mobs being up Always vs Spawning "On-Demand" ... the latter lessens server resource usage (CPU/RAM/Network Traffic), but reduces playing experience.

But, if we only got, say, 60-80 people on at a given time, surely the servers could handle some select problem mobs being always up?

[CallakDW]

I personally think if they do add falling damage Dragons and dryads should not take falling damage as both could "glide" down. I practiced "flying" from every one of the towers of magic in my hatching days and would not be flying as well as I do now if I had not had such practice.

I agree with this accept for one point. Some spells nullify flight, which would make a dragon crash.....

[Kodey]

This is true for nearly any MMORPG. I've seen it in FFXI, and WoW does something worse: Mobs become INVINCIBLE if they can't reach you. They Evade -everything-, 100%, if the game detects you using an "Exploit" (like, shooting arrows from a high perch. That's not an Exploit, its called "Tactics" in my book).

Actually, its still an exploit.

The monster goes into "Evade mode" if they can't path to you or harm you in any way. Its not tactics if suddenly you're getting shot at from someone high on a wall and having no way up with limited AI. Shooting fish in a barrel that can't move or fight back isn't tactics at all. :P There is no skill in doing that. And thusly you shouldn't be rewarded.

Its tactics if you were on a wall and shooting down at players, however, because I player has a brain to either run away from you or find out how you got up there yourself.

This is true for any MMO. Like how you can still log in to Horizons and stay immune to monsters for an unlimited amount of time, so long as you don't move. Fish in a barrel.

[Dhalin]

There's another problem with WoW's logic, too.

Okay, so you're a warrior, and you shoot something with an arrow, and pull it away from the mobs, and you're swinging at it, backing up, to pull it away.. suddenly.... Evade Evade Evade Evade... when it was almost dead. Just because I backed up an inch too far. Yeah, okay, riiight.

[Vechs]

The spawning issues in this game are a very sad story. There was a time when spawning worked awsome, I miss those days. They even had boss mobs that wandered around and collected followers and attacked towns.

This NEEDS to be put back in immediatly. Dynamic worlds for the win. Static Worlds of Repgrinds for the lose.

[Dhalin]

The spawning issues in this game are a very sad story. There was a time when spawning worked awsome, I miss those days. They even had boss mobs that wandered around and collected followers and attacked towns.

Actually, they still have this..... kinda.

That skeleton, what is his name? Lt Khar or something like that? That attacks Kion now and then. He doesn't have followers, though, and while he is capable of killing one guard, the other usually succeeds in pwning him after awhile...or the lower level player leads him into the stronger guards in town for some free XP.

[CallakDW]

Actually, they still have this..... kinda.

That skeleton, what is his name? Lt Khar or something like that? That attacks Kion now and then. He doesn't have followers, though, and while he is capable of killing one guard, the other usually succeeds in pwning him after awhile...or the lower level player leads him into the stronger guards in town for some free XP.

Heh, that guy is pudding compared to the automated attacks that used to occur. The AOP, or Avatar Of Pain used to be much stronger than those you now see in the satyer isles, and they would travel regularly between the routs between townships, and other scary monsters would join him along the way and follow as a group. When he attacked a town, if the players didn't come and assist the guards, he would whipe out the NPC population of the town and move on. I still remember my first encounter as a hatchling just ported int Harro. I was wondering what the heck was going on when I saw this multilimbed thing coming at me from the heart of town. Couple of wacks and I was a silver splotch on the ground. Ever since then when I would spot him on the roads with his band, I would give wide birth. Those were much more exiting days than now. It's all hunt grinding instead of accomplishing real quests that have a goal now.

[Fridlekh]

small possible-correction to a much earlier post... the sim side doesn't recognize x,y,z, it recognizes X,Y,relZ that is, it recognizes your height *relative to the terrain height* ... this is how it gets around having an actual world model.

This eases many things, but also causes some problems and hiders the ability to handle certain things, like the pathing issue. Since everything is stored as a height relative to the terrain, it's easy to have all resource nodes on a hill automagically appear on the surface. However, it also means that lair pieces are set relative to the terrain at the rime of creation... making terrain edits in the area of a lair next to impossible without possibly breaking connectivity.

The 'dungeon' that was nearly finished (world modeling was done I think, just needed populated with MOBs and have lore+quests+loot tables+etc added) worked the same way the rift does. the MOBs don't walk up the walls because the roaming or pathing areas don't allow them to, and the walls are 'thick' enough that you don't intersect with the agro radius of a MOB on the other side.

As for water... well... hopefully the "water as a seperate 'texture' layer" (actually another heightmap) idea will be implemented soon, and since the server is capable of recognizing intersection between the player and a given texture layer, then drowning would be made server side - even if the player could still edit out the water.


-Frid

P.S. Oh, and re-enable my fly-on-falling hack, at least make it an option. Dragons have flying cargo disks now, so they have no reason to complain that regular ones detatch when they take off.

[Spirit]

I personally think if they do add falling damage Dragons and dryads should not take falling damage as both could "glide" down. I practiced "flying" from every one of the towers of magic in my hatching days and would not be flying as well as I do now if I had not had such practice.

I agree with this... although perhaps dragons should have 10 adventure levels before they're strong enough to even glide, and even then not a particularly good glide. Try it before then and you will fall..

It would be interesting to have a few dragon hatchling contests to see who can glide the farthest..

Rakku

BTW: And I do most certainly agree with the original post.