Vault VII - Disparity and Displeasure

[Aaelefein]

This is significantly different from a previous post concerning the "Free Vault Upgrade" so I am starting a new topic/thread. On Tuesday and earlier today, there was an interesting discussion on the "Free Vault Upgrade" and the cost of the Vault VII (I'll refer to as V7).

As of now, to buy V7 is 750 Silver...there is no gain in stack and increases your bulk to a total of 7500, up from 6000.

As I stated in the discussion, my complaint is not spending silver for V7, but the disparity between those that have to buy V7 and those that were able to get it via the "Free Upgrade".

First some Quest information, as I completed the entire series of Vault Quests just last week on one of my alts:

Commoner's Vault: 2000
Quest: Vault Upgrade to 2200 (V1) - Cost: 10s and see Elsa in Tazoon
Quest: Vault Upgrade to 2500 (V2) - Cost: 25s and see Elsa in Tazoon
Quest: Vault Upgrade to 3000 (V3) - Cost: 50s and see Elsa in Tazoon

The next quest is actually two-in-one, "Vault Upgrade to 3800 (V4)" and "Grant Smyth Has Been Imprisoned" requires tracking down Grant Smyth and various people. To start this quest, you have to pay 100s. Once everyone is tracked down and you turn-in the quest, you get V4 and your 100s back.

At this point, I figured it was the "Free Upgrade" as my 100s was returned upon completion. Knowing there was a V5 - V7, I went back to a vaultkeeper, but none of the dialog would continue when I indicated I was interested in getting more shares. The only way I was able to get continuing dialog for more vault upgrade quests was to speak to Elsa again, thereby getting my "Free Upgrade" to V5.

Quest: Vault Upgrade to 6000 (V6) - Cost: 400s and see Elsa in Tazoon

and added just this Tuesday:

Quest: Vault Upgrade to 7500 (V7) - Cost: 750s and see Elsa in Tazoon.

Apparantly, there was a way for people to utilize their "Free Upgrade" to gain V7...aloophole somewhere between getting V4 and V5 that allowed them to get continuing dialog and buy V5 instead of using the "Free Upgrade".

Bottom Line, for the people that did not know about this loophole, they are spending at a minimum of 500 silver more than those that did know about the loop hole. My reasoning...

V1: 010s
V2: 025s
V3: 050s
V4: 000s (100s to start, but is returned upon completion of quest)
V5: 200s (Estimated based on price increases of 1, 2, 3, and 5)
V6: 400s
V7: 750s

Well...those that got a chance to pay 200s for V5 and got V7 for free are head of everyone else that had to pay full price by 550s.

That 550 silver difference is my complaint!

Edit: Oh...and this cost is for 2 alts...so comparitively speaking, I'm out at least an extra gold piece.

[Vahrokh]

Why do you start a thread with such a pissed off title just to point out about a bug / exploitable bug? It's not disparity if people (ab)used of a bug, it's something to report and fix.

I'd use the bugs forum or make a post at Blight to see if they can recreate the faulty situation, in that forum is included the contact mail where you can send repeatable / documented bugs reports as well.

[Aaelefein]

Why do you start a thread with such a pissed off title just to point out about a bug / exploitable bug? It's not disparity if people (ab)used of a bug, it's something to report and fix.

I'd use the bugs forum or make a post at Blight to see if they can recreate the faulty situation, in that forum is included the contact mail where you can send repeatable / documented bugs reports as well.

Well first...didn't realize that "Disparity and Displeasure" are such vulgar and emotion-filled words. That said...

Why did I not place this in Blight, or Bugs? Part of the issue was known before the sale to EI/PME last year...some people were and some were not able to get Vault 7. The only comments I saw/heard concerning this was that it had something to do with when a character was created, (ie. new characters could and old ones could not). This has since proven false as there are characters older than my alt that got them.

As I stated below, my dissatisfaction isn't that those of us who weren't previously able to get Vault 7 now have to pay. I expected this and I am glad that Vault 7 is now available to everyone.

My dissatisfaction (maybe a better word than displeasure?) is the disparity and added cost to us that through no fault of our own, are paying an estimated 550 Silver more than those who, by chance or by unknown/unreleased knowledge, were able to postpone recieving their free upgrade, buying Vault 5 (est 200s) and getting Vault 7 for free. (As far as I know, everyone still had to buy Vault 6 @ 400s).

Yes...I am very picky about how coin leaves my wallet. I still remember back about 2 years ago when numerous plot values were altered. It was about a month after busting my butt to finally buy a decent plot (12 14-hour days working t3 gems, all I could do at the time) only to find out I instantly lost about 250s...nearly a third of my investment. Only recently, I found out that during that same revaluation, the value of some people's plot jumped significantly, from 1-2 gold to 10-12 gold.

So yes, I think I have a reason to be a little concerned about an apparant monetary imbalance.

Do I expect or demand redress? No. But not only would it be appreciated, I would hope that in bringing this forward, in the future when similiar changes are instituted, these monetary imbalances are taken into consideration first.

[Kala]

... by chance or by unknown/unreleased knowledge...

I've seen a lot of people informed in MP about when to do the upgrade quest. All it involved was not doing the free upgrade quest until after you had Vault 6. Yes, it was very easily possible to skip the quest until then. Most of the time, when people were asking for directions to Grant, other people would chime in and advise NOT to be doing that quest right then.

I'm sorry you felt like you got cheated out of 500s+, but it wasn't something that was kept secret from people.

[Deth]

Well the problem came in for those of use that did not know we could or should wait. I did not find out it was a bug until long after I had already did it. But I guess that is my fault for needing vault space then and not waiting.

[Landowyn]

Marketplace info does not constitute information unless you are online when it is announced. I lost out on 500 silver as well because I did the upgrade at vault V to Vault VI.

[Aaelefein]

Yes, it was very easily possible to skip the quest until then. Most of the time, when people were asking for directions to Grant, other people would chime in and advise NOT to be doing that quest right then.

I'm sorry you felt like you got cheated out of 500s+, but it wasn't something that was kept secret from people.

Well, having just done this series of quests for my alt just last week, it is fresh in my mind. I don't recall a point where I could have skipped the quest.

Once I had Vault III, I could get no further dialog from a vault keeper and had no choice but to go to Elsa and start the "Grant Smyth Has Been Imprisoned" Quest.

And for those of us that prefer/enjoy crafting, especially the Construction Trades...vault space makes the job significantly easier.

[Kala]

While marketplace may not constitute information, announcing it in market, not once, but repeatedly doesn't count as hoarding information, either.

And I did the quests a few months ago (well after EI took control of the game) on an alt and had no problems skipping the quest.

As a side note, I prefer crafting as well.

And to make it perfectly clear, in case there is any doubt, I AM sorry you missed out on the free upgrade. I just think calling it unreleased knowledge is mistaken...maybe unreleased by the devs, but...they shouldn't be required to tell all anyway. (And really, it's only 1500 more bulk...that's less than the space of the smallest cargo disk! Not to mention I was disappointed I'd used a free upgrade to get it...I was hoping I'd at least have gotten more stacks out of it.)

[Pharcellus]

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. -- Albert Einstein

Boy, isn't that a prescient quote around this place?

[Jasmeen]

Pharcellus, to quote from The Princess Bride....

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Only in this case I'm refering to "prescient", not inconcievable.

[Jasmeen]

Marketplace info does not constitute information unless you are online when it is announced. I lost out on 500 silver as well because I did the upgrade at vault V to Vault VI.

How does it not constitute information? I'll give you that it doesn't constitute information that YOU have, but it is still information.

That's like saying the game manual isn't information because not everyone who played owns it.

Course the solution to this is for players who have learned things that would be beneficial to other players to create a guide for the Player Guides section on the forums. That way you'd be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Just a thought...

[gopher65]

I used my free upgrade to go from V to VI because I already had vault V when the "freebie" quest was created. AFAIK Vault seven wasn't around at that time, but maybe I just didn't know about it. I don't believe you could purchase vault VI at that time?

I'm not exactly sure what you are mad about. But I have 2 guesses:

1) You are mad because you feel left out by the changing gameplay, and an option which use to be available no longer is. So, are you saying that I should get back my 350 silver difference because the quests weren't released (or fully released) yet when I did my vault upgrades? Should I also get 50 free levels because Tier V and VI mobs weren't around in the game yet when I was levelling up my first class?

I think the key to realizing just how silly that particular argument is is the writing on the front of almost every Online Game out there "Experience May Change During Online Play". Anything can change at any time. That's just the way it is.

2) If, on the other hand, you are mad because you didn't realize that this quest had multiple possible paths when you did it, that's just too bad. Not everything should be spelt out in precise detail. Ask next time. Sometimes the decisions you make ingame *gasp* actually have an effect on your character *is shocked at the suggestion*.

It's not like you weren't allowed to proceed. You made a wrong decision in a choice sensitive quest, and it cost you a SMALL amount of ingame coin. That's just the way the cookie crumbles.

[Pharcellus]

Pharcellus, to quote from The Princess Bride....

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Only in this case I'm refering to "prescient", not inconcievable.

prescient adj.
knowledge of things before they exist or happen; foreknowledge; foresight.

Einstein long preceded Horizons, and though it was not specifically referencing Horizons, the general concept behind the quote (and, thus, the point, the "general wisdom" of it) is more than prescient and applicable to the situation with Virtrium and Horizons, hence why I pointed it out. However, if such subtlety in usage bothers you, just simply substitute "applicable", and all is good.

[Pharcellus]

Course the solution to this is for players who have learned things that would be beneficial to other players to create a guide for the Player Guides section on the forums. That way you'd be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Just a thought...

..or fix the game so that it doesn't blindside players, acting as a capricious and unnecessary money sink.

I mean, would you like it if the next time you bought a form with tokens it also took 1gp from your pocket? "Well, you shoulda known that!! We said it at least one time in the last month on MP!!"

[Aaelefein]

I'm not exactly sure what you are mad about. But I have 2 guesses:

1) You are mad because you feel left out by the changing gameplay, and an option which use to be available no longer is. So, are you saying that I should get back my 350 silver difference because the quests weren't released (or fully released) yet when I did my vault upgrades?

I was around when all this started happening, and my alt just recently lost out on the same option...even after having carefully read and followed the dialog from teh NPCs

2) If, on the other hand, you are mad because you didn't realize that this quest had multiple possible paths when you did it, that's just too bad. Not everything should be spelt out in precise detail. Ask next time. Sometimes the decisions you make ingame *gasp* actually have an effect on your character *is shocked at the suggestion*.

It's not like you weren't allowed to proceed. You made a wrong decision in a choice sensitive quest, and it cost you a SMALL amount of ingame coin. That's just the way the cookie crumbles.

Where was the choice? I did Quest 1, 2 and 3. Got quest 4...and no hints there were other options...so I completed quest. Tried for more dialog from a vault keeper, trying to pay for Vault 5, but got nothing except the same basic opening dialog for all the quests. Nothing would advance until I accepted the free upgrade to Vault 5.

So no...there was no dialog that indicated any other option.

AND...if you look at the end of my post...though it would be nice, for all those affected, I am NOT expecting or demanding the lost coin back. BUT that in the furture, these types of changes that affect the monetary standing of players are taken into consideration before implimentation. Especially the types of changes that occured during plot revaluations where some lost significant value and others gained significantly.

550s might be chump change to you...but it certainly isn't to me, or to several others I'm sure. Between me and my alt...that 1,100 silver could easily have gone into paying other players for some work on my plot.

[Jasmeen]

..or fix the game so that it doesn't blindside players, acting as a capricious and unnecessary money sink.

I mean, would you like it if the next time you bought a form with tokens it also took 1gp from your pocket? "Well, you shoulda known that!! We said it at least one time in the last month on MP!!"

How is it "blindsiding" players? This is an option of when to take the free upgrade. Totally different from what you're suggesting.

A more accurate analogy would be to say that you're running a quest and the quest giver asks for a gold piece deposit. You give it to him only to find out that when the quest is done, he stiffs you out of half a gold at the end. You failed to ask players in game for advice, failed to look for a guide that lets you know this is going to happen, so you're out half a gold.

There's two types of players in a case like this. Those who want to know in advance how to "beat" the game, and play it in the best possible way. And those who like discovering for themselves little (or big depending on your viewpoint) ways to improve how to play on their own. If you're in the first group, then read forums, read guides, ask other players. Don't make those of us who are in the second group have to play at your level. I like discovering that I could have done something better, or differently, when I play a game again. On the other hand, I used to write highly detailed guides and walkthroughs for Prima and various websites for those players who want to know everything up front. Again, I say, if you want to know all the "hints and tips", then ask. Don't blame game mechanics for your own failure to try to find out information.

[gopher65]

Especially the types of changes that occured during plot revaluations where some lost significant value and others gained significantly.

Ah plots. That's another story. I've been going Ò_ó over the plot size decreases. That has to have been an accident unless someone is a real knucklehead heh.

[Pharcellus]

How is it "blindsiding" players? This is an option of when to take the free upgrade. Totally different from what you're suggesting.

According to Aaelefein, there wasn't; see post above yours.

A more accurate analogy would be to say that you're running a quest and the quest giver asks for a gold piece deposit. You give it to him only to find out that when the quest is done, he stiffs you out of half a gold at the end. You failed to ask players in game for advice, failed to look for a guide that lets you know this is going to happen, so you're out half a gold.

Personally, I find it senseless and stupid to have to refer players to OUT OF GAME sources for an IN GAME quest. I agree that it is good to learn the ways things work, and I like learning them in the context of the game through practice and experience, rather than have to ask everyone and everybody every time I do a quest "how should I do this? Will I get screwed during it? What's the best way to go about doing it?".The VAST majority of the time, people will give cursory or just plain bad information.

That said, designing quests which are little more than game mechanic scams (intentionally or unintentionally) and expecting people to have to depend on obtaining foreknowledge to avoid them is stupid and silly.

There's two types of players in a case like this. Those who want to know in advance how to "beat" the game, and play it in the best possible way. And those who like discovering for themselves little (or big depending on your viewpoint) ways to improve how to play on their own. If you're in the first group, then read forums, read guides, ask other players. Don't make those of us who are in the second group have to play at your level. I like discovering that I could have done something better, or differently, when I play a game again. On the other hand, I used to write highly detailed guides and walkthroughs for Prima and various websites for those players who want to know everything up front. Again, I say, if you want to know all the "hints and tips", then ask. Don't blame game mechanics for your own failure to try to find out information.

There's a huge effin' difference between getting advice about a tough story quest, and getting info about how to get around a dumb game mechanic. Personally, I DO like keeping the playing field level for all players; it is why I am starting to design quest systems now for another game which make it very difficult to make "guides" for. I don't want to force anyone to play at "my level"; I just don't believe a game mechanic needs to be an inadvertent scam or exploit, and can't blame players for feeling ripped off over it. I'm also not willing to blame them for not "cheating" the experience by going to a guide (esp for a single minor quest) or HAVING to ask for advice (they may not even get) from other players to avoid it. Good scam quests are those which give the player an opportunity as part of the quest to avoid the rip off, because otherwise the quest system is too coarse and people will get burned by default.