Loot complaint

[gopher65]

I have a complaint about the loot changes in the most recent patch. Basically, there are no longer any rare items or drops in this game. Now a few things like ogre toes were way to rare before (mostly due to the rarity of the mob, not to the number of toes/mob dropped). But now, what am I suppose to hunt to sell to people? Nothing, apparently. Cause now there are no rare comp drops. You can go hunting for 10 minutes and get enough drops from that mob for all your needs.

So as I see it, I now have 1 choice: if I want to attempt to hunt something to sell, I can farm Tier 6 mobs. I hate farming mass numbers of weak mobs (it is boring); what I want is to be able to hunt individual moderately difficult mobs (like the satyr island mobs) one or 2 at a time and get SOMETHING that I can sell.

I'm just flabbergasted that loot drops were nerfed like this. Nerfed meaning they were made so common as to be utterly worthless now.

So a call-out to people out there who might know. What should I hunt now that is In Demand in this so-called "player driven economy"?

[Fratricide]

I wouldn't know.. most of my T5 gear has T4 techs on them.. because I can't afford to have someone go out and get the stuff I need for techs.. and I can't hunt the creatures myself..

[gopher65]

*sighs* I know people have trouble with this concept, so let me explain it to everyone yet again.

You know how in some games they have "normal" weapons, armour, etc? And then they have super special "magic" weapons, armour, and other items? Well because in HZ everything is crafted and hardly anything is dropped, we can't have "phat loot" drops like super special purple magic swords (or at least not on a regular basis).

So we have these things called "Techniques" which are placed on items to give them magical properties. This is the HZ version of Phat Loot. It is meant to be rare, and no one is suppose to be able to just snap their fingers and tech all their gear, items, and spells. Just like in WoW you aren't suppose to be able to snap your fingers and get the best items dropped in the game.

After playing almost since launch I still don't have all my spells teched (most in fact aren't teched). And it wasn't so long ago that I was wearing level 61 armour cause I hadn't managed to get all my comp drops yet.

It is SUPPOSE to take time to get all your gear fully teched, and teched gear IS NOT basic gear that is needed to play. You can still be effective without teched gear. I'll fight better when I have all my spells teched (eventually:P), but it certainly isn't necessary for me to have them teched to kill things.

People act like unteched items are not worth the trouble of using. I can't figure out why.

[Peaches]

If this is intended,I am glad its not so rare, gives people more chances to get the comps versus Nadia.

[CallakDW]

I do see Gopher's point. Though the way I see it, if they are going to take some flavor out by makeing the most powerful crafter items so much easier to make by making the rare comps easier to get, perhaps it's time to put some flavor back in by having more rare uncrafted item drops. The game has a few curretly, but only dropped by the toughest creatures in the game ex: weapons fragments dropped by Valcore, or whole weapons (sometimes) by Son of Gigaroth, and another boss type (I can't remember the name at the moment) that's what remains of the withered scale out in the ED.
Mabe it's time to start having lower items like this drop off of lower level bosses? I don't understand why the game has to be so heavily based around crafting.

[gopher65]

It's not that they aren't rare.

I'm currently trying to solo up spiritist (paper armour, ugg). I have been levelling up at the Ghosts in the Bitter Pickle cause I've been testing the drops there lately, but someone was at my favourite hunting spot. So I figured that since I'm level 76 right now, I'd go and try some level 80-85 Dire Wolves. I survived 2 of them at once. Anyway, normally I would fight there for a while, and sell the comps that dropped, and the trophies that dropped, and either give away the hoard or give it to my dragon.

Dire wolf fangs were always extremely common. I use to sell them for between 1 and 5 silver, depending on the mood I was in that day. I'd often end up with 50 of them after a few hours of hunting, killing the wolves 1 to 4 at a time, depending on what class I was in. But now they are dropping between 1 and 2 fangs PER KILL. They are now absolutely worthless. I can't even give them away anymore. Now I delete them.

It's not like I was farming them either. I was killing them one wolf at a time. Slowly, painfully sucking the life out of each one! Hehe, I like Spiritist. It's such a sadistic school.

On the up side, the wolves no longer drop Forms (which was stupid, cause they were highly farmable), trophies (at least I didn't see one), trinkets, or skins (yeeeeeeees. I hate junk drops). So now they drop fangs 100% of the time, with the occasion 1 or 2 skulls (trophies).

The way I see it, the devs can do one of two things to fix this (if this is unintended). They can either make items require dozens of wolf fangs for each tech, or they can lower the drop rate to 1/10th of it's current level (which is still high for this type of mob).

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Basically here's what I think the drop rates for tech components should be to be fairly fair to everyone:

1) Semi-Bosses (Unnamed mobs like Kwellen, Wraith Leaders, or anything else that is a Leader Mob): 100% chance of drop. These things are often surrounded by a group of mobs linked to them, and that makes them hard to kill. There should be some reward for those willing to take the effort (I never kill them heh).

2) Undead, Skulks, etc: 1/3 chance of drop. They are hard to kill, so you shouldn't need to kill them in large numbers

3) Normal mobs: 1/8 chance of drop. These mobs are moderately easy for almost anyone to kill, even a single schooled biped, so you should need to kill quite a few of them to get a comp drop.

4) Farmable mobs (wolves, golems): These mobs are unbelievable weak. That's ok. Some mobs should be weak for their level, and some should be strong (especially undead). But you should have to kill HUGE numbers of these suckers for a comp drop because they are so weak. I'd say 1/30 chance of drop. Even at this rate people shouldn't have any trouble getting these things. Even a single schooled monk can burn through the more non-social wolves like a cold knife through butter (well they are monks after all:P).

[Aamer Khan]

I am trying to understand ya G, but here is the rub...

In this game, you can have ALL craft classes to 100 and can easily get enough adventure classes to hunt any mobs you want, and the ones you can't solo, you just need a few friends.

Also, typically the dropped weapons like those off of SOG are ok, but nothing stellar. Even the Valkor and Reklar weapons are not massively powerful.. just very nice.

Combine those to things and add in the fact that guilds also negate the neew to buy much of anything, the conclusion is that there currently is NO economy.

I mean really, how could there be without plenty of new players to sell things to as they rise through the ranks.

If you want a player driven economy, the devs will have to create NEEDS that cost money, for an economy to start working again.

Some sort of reagent/comp/resource that can only be bough from the empire, building permits, portal fees, personal enhancements, or plot decorations could provide the NEEDS aspect.

I know that everyone is going to jump on this as some sort of evil idea, but frankly, as a high level adv/crafter I don't NEED to buy anything from anyone. I sometimes do it out of convience or to get something quicker, but I think thats the key to why out economy doesn't work atm.

IF I had to buy a reagent each time I made something, then that need would encourage me to sell things, especially if I started running low of funds. If each structure I put up needed a permit bought from the empire, I am in no way limited in what I build, but have the need to spend ( and thus participate in the ecomony ) that simply does not exist for me currently.

I don't know what the devs are planning, but only something like this will fix the economy.

( ok boys... start to flammage )

[Peaches]

As long as they grandfather in the plots already planned.!!!!!!

[gopher65]

I didn't start this thread to talk about new loot, but about the unbalanced approach that has been taken to the current loot in the game. I don't in see any particular need for uber weapons (unless they decay to complete uselessness fairly quickly and are unrepairable), or useable dropped items. But carry on and talk about this stuff if you want to; any discussion on loot is better than none.

Still, if we were going to have dropped, fully operation things, I'd like to see more things like trinkets. Except, you know, useful and good. Anything with a significant %chance of failure is NEVER going to be anything more than a novelty (blighted trinkets anyone?). Ethereal trinkets and Cogs are both a step in the right direction, but they don't go quite far enough. Instead I'd like things like rare single use scrolls and spells that cast powerful offensive spells.

As long as the drop rate were low enough, they wouldn't be any more unbalancing than DC or Flamebomb. My point is that there are already unbalanced, overly powerful spells in the game, and their use is controlled by nothing but a short timer. Single use rare dropped (or even crafted with a rare drop?) spells would be no different, except that they'd be far more limited due to their rarity.

[Steelclaw]

But now, what am I suppose to hunt to sell to people? Nothing, apparently.

Here's a hint: go look up the comps for popular techs and go hunt those mobs. Go look and see what isn't on Aidan. For example: Zombie Ogre Toes. I don't see ANY on Aidan.

Dire wolf fangs were always extremely common. I use to sell them for between 1 and 5 silver... They are now absolutely worthless. I can't even give them away anymore. Now I delete them.

I see about 130 on Aidan for sale at 5s each. I think that price is too high given the (lack) of difficulty getting them. 1-3s would be a better price. Put a few on at 1s, see how they sell, then ramp it up.

Don't use "I can't even give them away" as a reason. I have expert forms and t4-t5 techs that I can't give away too. Why? Probably because people only take what they need. When someone comes along and notices that I have something they want, I get a fair amount of coin for it. Lesson: just because you can't give it away doesn't mean it's worthless.

Back to comps...

I have a hard time believing that they are "too easy" to get when I can't find what I want on Aidan and have to go out and hunt instead. Granted it's possible to get a large number of some comps in a short amount of time, however, that doesn't warrant a global reduction in drops, nor does it justify the complaint that there is nothing to sell.

[gopher65]

Here's a hint: go look up the comps for popular techs and go hunt those mobs. Go look and see what isn't on Aidan. For example: Zombie Ogre Toes. I don't see ANY on Aidan.

This is part of what this thread is about. No one wants these anymore because they are SO FREAKING EASY to get. They drop like candy. Numerous people have offered them on market in the past few days. No takers at any price anymore. One person actually said "oh those are worthless now. I don't hunt much, but I'll get those myself."

I see about 130 on Aidan for sale at 5s each. I think that price is too high given the (lack) of difficulty getting them. 1-3s would be a better price. Put a few on at 1s, see how they sell, then ramp it up.

Yeah, I got those a while ago, and put them up a few days ago before I went and hunted wolves and realized how easy they are to get. Since my consignment fee is already gone I'll leave them up until they revert to my vault, then I'll put them up cheap. They sold great at 5 silver before. Heck, everything use to.

I have a hard time believing that they are "too easy" to get when I can't find what I want on Aidan and have to go out and hunt instead. Granted it's possible to get a large number of some comps in a short amount of time, however, that doesn't warrant a global reduction in drops, nor does it justify the complaint that there is nothing to sell.

I didnt' suggest a global reduction. I suggested an increase in some drops which are stupidly difficult to get, and reductions when they are stupidly easy to get.

You don't think that 1 to 2 comp drops PER MOB EVERY SINGLE KILL is too much of a drop? Would you like that "I win" button in paper or plastic sir? That is the LITERAL drop rate btw. Not an exaggeration. Go test it yourself if you don't believe me.

[Drevar]

I would support the nearly 100% drop rate if there was some other mechanism for teching besides just having the parts in inventory. A middle processing step to turn the parts into an infusion and then THAT is used in the technique. The processing step would add some value back to the tech resources.

I would also like to see more rare techniques either obtainable via quest or rare drop. Perhaps a quest to bring in 100 of each T5 wolf claws and get a high level Wolf Slayer tech. Comp sellers could then sell bulk quantities of the resouce that is so easy to get.

Drev

[Dhalin]

If you're on Order, go get me some freaking Imbued Armor Splinters. I've been looking for those for like 3 weeks now trying to finish my T5 Scales with Tier Three techs, because the items for T5 Strength, and T&C are just simply too hard to obtain, if I recall, one of which happens to be an undead item. I'm hoping that when I have adventured more, I will have more cash to buy the said things.

If you wish to hunt and farm, Advertise! Go on Marketplace and say:

"Does anyone need any Tech Comps or Expert Forms?"

I'll bet you'd get a few takers. You need to know what your customers want before attempting to sell them anything. Advertise yourself as a Tech Comp/Expert Forms gatherer, get an order or two, and then go out and fill it.

Edit: A lot of this is also psychology. When something drops that you don't need, or want, it is usually "omg, another one of those? Blah!" but yet if you NEED something, you kill some and its "Bleh, these just aren't dropping!" Case in point when I (in vain) attempted to get my own imbued armor splinters... killed 20 mobs, got 1.... 1.... imbued armor splinter. Just one. And I needed, at the time, like 12 of them. Got lucky next day to see 3 of them up on Aidan.. gah, last I checked I still need like 7...

But yet, on the flipside, in my Vault, I have like 20 Redbacked Spider Eyes.... that I have no need for.

[gopher65]

Good points.

But a 100% drop rate (1 to 2 comp drops per kill) isn't just me going "omg another one of those??". It's me going ".... that's just stupid".

And I'm on Chaos.

And you're a *dragon* and you can't kill tier V undead 0_o? Man, I can kill those things in healer mode(1 vs 1 only of course), and I have 800 1hc skill and 600 strength and 1700 armour. Someone isn't eating their daily recommended allotment of hoard I see. Those food guides exist for a reason you know!

[Justa Mirage]

Wow, I am excited that there are more of "what people term 'the rare drop'" in this thread.

I search high and wide for rare components... and the only reason they are rare, are the fact that most of them come from mobs on Satyr island, against highly sociable mobs that spam cast mez, heals, and help/heal others when you are fighting them. The drops from oh.... a blue vexator, were not 100% and it was rare to find one "alone" in order to get "nothing".

It still is a wee bit difficult for the average player to wade through mobs on those islands to get them (or any of the other drops you need there) as the mobs aren't "right at the pad" you have to go deep into the island to get them.

I agree somewhat with Gohpher that if they are 100% or 1 every 2 kills, makes getting those "hard to get" tier 5 tech items almost moot. One of the reasons they imposed the 25,50,75 per tech (then lowered to 10,20,30 when 80% of the playerbase quit the game) this was to quell the adventurer running out with double and triple teched armor and weapons with no effort at all to craft them.

If the drops are that easy.... the area will saturate with everyone having the best armor / scales / weapons, and the need for the techs will diminish again.

Aamer is right also, there needs to be other money sinks in the game to earn your hard earned copper other than portal fees... which is the only money sink in the game. They need things that remove gold from the game, and make it not something that would hurt crafters.

[Guaran]

Think of it like this:

Now you are having an easier time obtaining certain things. YOU'VE GOT MORE TO SELL.. lower the price and sell more. LOOK AT WALMART.

For some reason it sounds like you are whining that people no longer pay your exhorbitant prices... (impression, I don't know what you sell for. but this is how it came across)

I'm in agreement that loot in general could be more interesting, but alas, that is not the game we play...

I still believe there is plenty of market for things like blue fringes, fiery dire fangs, abom chest skulls, zombie toes.. go hunt those. I posted a WTB in marketplace last night that was unanswered.

[gopher65]

Now you are having an easier time obtaining certain things. YOU'VE GOT MORE TO SELL.. lower the price and sell more. LOOK AT WALMART.

This is an illogical and completely incorrect comparison. Walmart sells CONSUMABLES. People eat a bag of chips, then it is gone forever. If Walmart sold mass qualities of high quality merchandise cheap (and it was able to obtain them for the same price as its current goods), it would be out of business in 6 months. If something lasts forever people don't come back for more.

In other words, your idea works for crystals and ethereal tablets. It doesn't work for any comp drop. Therefore the walmart model CANNOT work in a game like this, unless we have large numbers of consumable and decaying items.

Right now though we are talking about indestructible items. Once people have their Suit of Uberness, or their Scales of Awesome, those things never go away. If you make it really really really really really really really really easy to get that Suit of Uberness, then everyone will immediately go out and get one, and then there will be no market for anything needed to make said suit.

[gopher65]

I search high and wide for rare components... and the only reason they are rare, are the fact that most of them come from mobs on Satyr island, against highly sociable mobs that spam cast mez, heals, and help/heal others when you are fighting them. The drops from oh.... a blue vexator, were not 100% and it was rare to find one "alone" in order to get "nothing".

Yup. Vexators are in my Hard Mob list. IMO opinion they should drop a fringe at least 1 in every 3 kills. For mobs that are always grouped (Kwellen), every mob should drop a comp. If this isn't the case, there is no incentive to hunt these mobs. People will just farm something easy (like gem nodes:P), pawn the results, and Nadia the comps they need. And that's what happens right now.

I don't know if it has made too much difference (I haven't noticed much), but apparently in this patch the socialness of mobs was decreased, and aggro was lessened.

If the drops are that easy.... the area will saturate with everyone having the best armor / scales / weapons, and the need for the techs will diminish again.

That was actually all I wanted to say in my original post. But I meander and distract people a lot when I write stuff. I end up with 4 paragraphs instead of one sentence.

Aamer is right also, there needs to be other money sinks in the game to earn your hard earned copper other than portal fees... which is the only money sink in the game. They need things that remove gold from the game, and make it not something that would hurt crafters.

Yeah, there definitely needs to be some sort of money sink. Inflation is a killer. Maybe the Bank of Istaria needs to raise its overnight lending fee?

[Drevar]

Well one of those tough to find tech comps got a big nerf. Nerf in the same sense that gopher stated for the wolf fangs. There is now a spawn of nothing but Zombie Ogres. Got six toes this morning in about 10 minutes just passing through. I'll leave it up to you to find it *grin*

Drev

[Vahrokh]

And you're a *dragon* and you can't kill tier V undead 0_o?

Tip 1: if he's still grinding his set, it's because he misses it (!) hence his gear is sub par, hence he's weaker.

Tip 2: there's an host of mobs that are quite resistant to some dragon attacks, on the other side, multistriking and "social" / stunning mobs can eat dragons alive since we are not healers.

Tip 3: dragon v biped = I was right: the day we'd see this back is when the game is fine again enough to reopen this.

Tip 4: when I played I was the richest dragon, with the big plots etc... without grinding at all nor endlessy farming anything. You can be adventurer and hate to craft but *merchant* mentality is needed in both cases. Like, knowing the thing people want at a given moment (usually not what you prefer killing) and the moment when you should sell it before others catch the feeling and start doing it themselves and inflate the market and start the undercut trend.

Tip 5: "Man, I can kill those things in healer mode": my guild mate Felicia was cleric / zillion of other stuff and would kill everything possible without dying. Being healer + something offensive is pretty powerful in this game.