Loot complaint

[Henry Redacre]

Players LIKE having their armor tailored to their exact specifications.

That's what I'm saying. I'm not sure that attuning teched items will generate much of an increase in business for crafters over whatever business they are receiving now. Attuning won't have that much of an impact on the economy, I don't think, mainly because most people are already getting their equipment tailor made for themselves already.

[Vahrokh]

are there really *that* many people passing down their equipment?

On Unity, in my guild bank we had several craft sets (very cumbersome and many to make) for recruits and new characters. We'd pass them over and over, you don't really need your pimp pink gatherer set when you have a fully teched one ready for you in bank and that you would trash in few levels (to switch to the next) anyway. Weapons too and tools, I recall we had one / two for everything in bank and all "reused" it.
I passed my scale sets to an host of hatchlings during the years.

Attuning won't have that much of an impact on the economy, I don't think, mainly because most people are already getting their equipment tailor made for themselves already

You have to recall that Horizons is not one game.

One day, if they ever want to make it profitable, Horizons will have to change - a lot actually. Many changes won't be pleasant. Spell linking is but the first step, one day they'll have to severely nerf stun spells, how multiclassing creates gods, remove the possibility of killing mobs 3 levels above yours (expecially AoE) and much more. There will be "the ancients", that is the old players that will adapt to the changes, and for them the game will have "different" rules compared to the new.

The new players will basically play a different game, where economy has a meaning, gearing up could actually become a challenge, levelling up will take skill, exploits will be rarer and so on. The elders instead will be forever an oligarchy beyond the rules. They are maxed, they have infinite money due to the long play time or exploits, they have the all the best plots and the best placement. Making sets bind on equip will make no difference for them either, since they are maxed already.
Because of this, it's not immediate to see on us (that will be those elders tomorrow) any difference, we sort of "won" already, we "arrived". Nothing short of resetting all the characters to zero will change this.

[Chioxin]

Unless this game is a ton of fun to play from 1 to 100 again... crafting included... They better not reset my character or I will quit for good =P

But it won't ever come to that =) They've a lot of things to do and change that suits the "Horizons" style of play though I'm sure... Item wise... Crystals are a good start. I can't say much for the other loot then damnit, I wish it were easier to collect in some cases. Of course I'd be ok with the low drop rates if they'd fix the spawn issues =p

[Henry Redacre]

The intent of my comments that follow isn't to argue with you, so please don't interpret anything that way. For the most part, I'm mainly thinking "out loud", and using the contents of your post as a basis for my train of thought. But again, let me reiterate, I'm not being argumentative, just thinking, and discussing is all.

You have to recall that Horizons is not one game.

For all intents and purposes I agree with you on this. Horizons can indeed be viewed with scrutiny towards it's various components and aspects in this regard. The 'Dragon' game. The 'Biped' game. The Adventuring game. The Crafting game. The Loot game. The Multiclassing game. The Plot and Real Estate game. The Construction Game. Even the Social game, and many more I'm sure I'm leaving out. I've got my own ideas and interpretations about these games, as does everyone else. Exactly what those interpretations are aren't relevant to my point here. My point is, that each of these separate games, when viewed individually, begin to increasingly decline in their overall "fun" capacity. Any individual part, being less than the whole is inherently less by it's very nature. However, I think that by looking at each of these individual games, and making them fun in their own right can only serve to increase overall fun of the whole picture. Notice I'm focusing on the term "fun" here and not "balance." Balance is a whole other issue.

One day, if they ever want to make it profitable, Horizons will have to change - a lot actually. Many changes won't be pleasant. Spell linking is but the first step, one day they'll have to severely nerf stun spells, how multiclassing creates gods, remove the possibility of killing mobs 3 levels above yours (expecially AoE) and much more.

Indeed. The state of the game now is, in my own personal opinion, barely above that threshold that describes "minimum fun." And this is including all of its separate 'games' and how their fun all adds up together. I truly believe that HZ can be a LOT more fun than it currently is.

I think, the way I look at is, that HZ is a 'container' for 'fun.' HZ is holding all the fun it can right now, and so it cannot spontaneously become more fun without its container being altered. Also, things like bugs or exploits or unfinished features or content all act as holes or leaks in that container, draining the fun out of it. Knowing that HZ can't spontaneously become more fun, and that it is also currently 'leaking' means that it needs to have its holes and leaks patched up, and its total fun capacity needs to be increased in order to hold more fun. Anyone who has ever tried to repair a swimming pool knows that in many cases, in order to work on it, it needs to be drained to some degree. HZ is susceptible to the same situation in many cases. In order to repair certain holes and leaks to our fun, HZ needs to be drained a little bit. This comes in the form of changes that the playerbase isn't always happy about. Because really, you're draining my pool man, and that bums me out because it means I'm not able to go swimming the way I might be used to. But when those leaks and holes are patched up, it means that HZ can be refilled with more fun, in addition to having a much sturdier platform from which to expand the overall fun capacity.

If none of this is making sense, I guess what I'm trying to say is that yeah, sometimes things do indeed need to get worse before they get better. In fact, in many cases things *must* get worse before they can get better. You can't patch a hole at the bottom of a swimming pool while it's completely filled with water. Nor can you tear it down and install a new bigger/better one without causing at least a few ripples. The challenge for Vi now is to find a way to patch up HZ without totally draining it of *all* of its fun. A difficult challenge to be sure, but not impossible. And, just like a swimming pool, sometimes the plugs in the holes don't always hold the first time. That's just the way of things. But lessons are learned, and subsequent attempts at plugging the holes become more likely to succeed.

The nice thing is, this is where all of HZ's parts - the smaller, individual 'games' I mentioned earlier - come into play. Since HZ is made up entirely of all those individual games, then to say that any one 'thing' in HZ is being touched or worked on, then it cam be said that that particular 'thing' in question is also a part of one of those individual games. With this scenario, Vi can potentially drain a lot of the fun out of one of those individual games in order to work on it. In order to help soften the blow of one of your favorite individual games within HZ suddenly sucking and not being fun, there are many other individual games that can be played with a lesser degree of impact from the suckage of the other part. In time, each individual game will become more and more fun as each one has components that are worked on and improved. Having other fun individual games within HZ can help soften the blow of your favorite suddenly sucking.

There will be "the ancients", that is the old players that will adapt to the changes, and for them the game will have "different" rules compared to the new.

Well, yes and no. They will still be guided by the same rules that the new players will have, but more than likely they will have entirely different goals. By having different goals, they may impose different rules upon themselves, but that's by their own choice. They are certainly entitled to create their own subset of rules if they choose, as long as those rules do not conflict with the list of rules laid down by the developers for *every* citizen of Istaria, old or new. Of course, I think you understood that, which is why you put "different" in quotes. =P

The new players will basically play a different game,

Right, due to the differences between the goals of already established playerbase and the new/incoming playerbase.

where economy has a meaning, gearing up could actually become a challenge, levelling up will take skill, exploits will be rarer and so on.

Ah, see, now that sounds fun to me. I'm interested in those things and wish to see them come to pass. And this is where those changes come in. In order to create the scenario you just described, things will need to change, and some of those changes will make things worse before they get better. But I understand (and I hope others do too) that development for this game, indeed for *any* MMO is a process, one that involves many steps. Grand sweeping changes will never be brought about all at once, because any one thing in an MMO touches everything else to some degree. In general, the more significant the change, the more significant the impact, though, I would think that goes without saying. I would hope anyway. MMOs behave much like a spider web. If you were to try to shift one tiny intersection of strands on a web, wouldn't the whole thing shudder a little bit? Thus, changes to the economy game affect the adventuring game. Changes to the crafting game affect the looting game.

So when a a change is made somewhere, and we say "Why did you make X change first, instead of Y change?!", it may be because we're looking at a different part of that web than the Devs are. They may be plucking a strand over here in order to get it back into the orderly line it should be in, and even though it disrupts the strands next to it, it may very well be in preparation to pluck another strand somewhere else entirely.

Yes, those changes may make things difficult for awhile, but there are other things that are available to us players to do. If we don't happen to particularly like those other things, then maybe our choices become:

A) "This sucks! I'm waiting till they make it not suck anymore!"
or
B) "This sucks! I'm waiting till they make it not suck anymore... but, I might as well deal with it and play for a little while they do that."

.... I think I just realized I'm rambling.....

The elders instead will be forever an oligarchy beyond the rules.

I disagree with this somewhat. No matter how long a player has been playing the game, they are never beyond (or above) the rules put in place by the Devs. They may however, find themselves beyond the goals of some of the newer players, and moved on to establish entirely different goals. That happens all the time.

They are maxed, they have infinite money due to the long play time or exploits, they have the all the best plots and the best placement.

I think "infinite" money is an overstatement here, however, the net effect is still the same. If a player has already purchased all the things that can be obtained with money, and still has plenty of money leftover, then money no longer has meaning or value. In which case, having 1c more than they need, or having infinite money, it still pretty much equates to the same thing. This is one of those scenarios where that particular player may establish new goals for themselves that don't include money at all, whereas the newer player may still include money in their goals. This is one step towards the different 'game' that an elder player may experience as opposed to a newer player.

Making sets bind on equip will make no difference for them either, since they are maxed already.

Yeah, having teched equipment won't really affect these elder players a whole lot, since they've already got all the equipment they want/need. Although, they also represent business lost to the crafter. The crafter can no longer sell any equipment to them, since they have all they need. New players coming into the game will fill that void and replace that lost business. Although, it may also be that the crafter doesn't even want money anyway, since they are one of the elder players that place no value on money, so money might not be changing hands at all that way either. Additionally, if there is a large influx of new players for whatever reason, then there won't be enough pre-teched equipment to pass down to them all anyway.

I think that assuming that this change (attuning teched equipment) will stimulate an economy is a slight misnomer. It may help reinforce other changes made in the future however, because I may just be looking at the wrong part of that spider web. =P

Because of this, it's not immediate to see on us (that will be those elders tomorrow) any difference, we sort of "won" already, we "arrived". Nothing short of resetting all the characters to zero will change this.

You're right, we may not be able to see what the change ultimately leads to, and I think thats okay. I think we'll just have to trust in the Devs that they have a plan in mind for what the changes will lead to.

As for resetting the characters back to zero, like Chioxin said, it would likely prove disastrous to the game overall. I think if it ever comes to that, resetting the characters shouldn't even be considered as an option. What I would much rather see take place is a new, unpopulated server opened up, with no character transfers allowed. The new server could house whatever changes the Devs feel necessary to create the game within the vision they have in mind.

*whew*
my brain hurts now. i think i rambled a lot, and, in all likelihood probably even contradicted myself in a few places. I guess that's what happens when i ramble on while i think out loud.

[Chioxin]

New server at this stage would not be all that wonderful, though it's definitely a better step than character resets. Still though, a new server with people moving over to it... If everyone leaves my server and I have to start over for whatever reason... Unless the game is DRASTICALLY different and fun to play 1 - 100 again, crafting/adventuring/money for plot and what nots... You can kiss my account good bye =/ No reason to play if no one is on my server =)

::EDIT::
Fun read none the less. Liked it lots =)

[Henry Redacre]

Unless the game is DRASTICALLY different and fun to play 1 - 100 again, crafting/adventuring/money for plot and what nots... You can kiss my account good bye =/ No reason to play if no one is on my server =)

I fully agree here. I don't mean talking about opening up a new server just for the sake of having another server. The only reason I can see that ever happening is if the game changes drastically enough - to the point where the Devs ever felt the need to reset characters. And even then, the additional server was suggested merely as an alternative to a character wipe/reset.

Of course, the only reason anyone would migrate to a new server is if the game had changed so drastically that it felt like a whole new experience. If it was just more of the same that already exists on the current servers, then it would probably be more detrimental than helpful.

[C`gan]

I can see a need for a new server IF and ONLY IF the population grows on all shards to the point that there are no more plots to be had of any size, the beasties are all camped out, the resources are all harvested, and the WA has no chance of spawning beasties to attack without having them sent back to it in pieces only moments later.

Until then, Chioxin, I don't really think you'll have to worry about being alone. And even at that, it'll be more of a pressure release valve to allow more people the opportunities in Istaria and you would have to make the choice of move or not move on your own (or, keep your characters as is and start a new one or set on the new shard).

[Chioxin]

Not worried about it happening C'gan. HZ isn't big enough to warrant such a thing. Just saying I'm not even sure a new server would help, other than with brand new players there. Old players likely won't want to leave me thinks. Now, those without huge lots or ties to the old server, ya they may want to leave. That, and I think it would hurt!

VI gets to play the DM, after having given their level 1 players uber items and to much gold by accident because he didn't expect the player to defeat the boss in a certain encounter. I know my players weren't to happy when a pack of fairies appeared, played tricks on them, and turned their uber gear into ... well... standard level 2 gear =)

Now that i think about it, this thread is so derailed isn't it? =/

[Steelclaw]

Now that i think about it, this thread is so derailed isn't it? =/

Yeah... what does this have to do with loot? o_O

[Guaran]

Attuning equipmenty

[Guaran]

*whats up with the 15 minute edit limit! that sucks, seriously*

post as I meant it:

Attuning equipment will not make any significant boost to crafter business unless people are limited to only a few craft schools they can max out or join.

Even then, a smart guild could easily assign duties, or simply level alts like is required in WOW, to obtain all the desired schools. Many long term players already have multiple alts as it is, likely leveled up in Adv already. Tuning the crafting across several toons isnt going to immediately impact long term players. This would really only change the game for newer players.

But would it? How many people craft stuff for others for free? Am I the only one who still prefers to charge for craft services? Of course my guild gets items created for free. With people crafting things for free, no amount of attuning is going to make much difference....

Attuning also prevents the items from being stored in houses.... That's unacceptable. House storage would have to be able to store attuned equipment for multiple players simultaneously, or you can just forget attuning everything.

For attuning to work: Houses have to be fixed. Players have to be limited to 1 or 2 craft schools.

Even still, I believe only moderate new business would be generated. Guilds would take care of their own. Crafters making things for free would take a dent out of the rest...

Point: Dev's would have to do ALOT of work, that ultimately wouldn't result in some huge "Fun" increase in the game. Instead crafters who might be clamoring for this change in the hopes of "OMG more business! yes!" would have to loose 17 of the 19 craft schools.... how would THAT affect their fun? I charge for my services yet I wouldn't want everything to attune.

To me? more fun would be
1) New lands to explore. Continents, floating cities. ADD new creatures to some of the existing barren continents. Theres a few to the north that are empty. Abominable snowmen!
2) New creatures to fight
3) Complete the Dungeon that david was working on.
4) Continue the new quest developement that we have already seen take place on new trismus. This was planned to eventually happen thru all tiers.
5) Make "Boss mobs" Not just "spawn" create a quest that group members complete each time to be able to get him to "Spawn" These quests can be done simultaneously by the group, however they are limited to being able to do the quest say once every 24 to 48 hours or whatever. Once you've done the quest on that toon, you cannot do it again for 48 hours. This could serve the in-game function of allowing everyone a chance to do it, without "Instancing" everything. As well as eliminating the boring, braincell killing Camping.

I completely agree that there's the potential for this game to continue to grow and be fun. It will take alot of continuous work on the dev's part. Once some bugs are fixed.

The epic spells shouldn't be muticastable. Shining Blades already cannot be multicast. However they are not very "Epic" unless the dmg is increased about 6 fold. Add the other Epics ingame. Fury of the power demon, earthquake, and others...

[Dhalin]

I have mules full of equipment that I was never able to pass on; we did that in the earliest days, but not since. Why? Wrong color, wrong techs, wrong kind. Players LIKE having their armor tailored to their exact specifications.

Dunno about anyone else, as long as it has stats close to what I want/need, I'm happy to take it simply because its better than nothing or worse yet, hours and hours of farming and begging to get someone to make it for me.

As long as I can use it, and it has stats close to what I want (I am currently using a hand-me-down dragon claw on my dragon character that has T&C III and Primal III yet I rarely to never cast offensive Primal spells. It was certainly better than trying to farm/find on consigners/beg for T3 comps at the time to get someone to make me, say, a Strength+T&C claw instead).

[velveeta]

i'm with you, dha... especially on blight, one soon learns that something is much better than nothing.
if i turned down equipment because it wasn't the right color, i would deserve to not have equipment. if you get me, that's sounds kinda circular, i know....

if someone is kind enough to give you anything valuable or helpful, especially for free, especially especially if you asked for it, then you should be graceful enough to accept it.
i can tell you, i would never have become the 90 blk (as my highest crafting class) without the generous gifting of disks, clothes, and tools (just got a mith stone chisel from ryin the other night.....), of course - but also without the armour and weapons, especially until i could make my own, not to mention the babysitting and bodyguarding and level leeching. i have relied on the kindness of others and will continue to do so, just as noobs can count on my kindness, if they deserve it.

i would consider it a bit rude and something of an insult if someone requested something, i gave it to them, and they rejected it because it was red instead of green. yes i may be sensitive, but nevertheless......

[gopher65]

You can redye already made armour. I've done it when I didn't like a the pink colour of a set of handmedowns craft armour that I got.

[Lupine73]

New server at this stage would not be all that wonderful, though it's definitely a better step than character resets. Still though, a new server with people moving over to it... If everyone leaves my server and I have to start over for whatever reason... Unless the game is DRASTICALLY different and fun to play 1 - 100 again, crafting/adventuring/money for plot and what nots... You can kiss my account good bye =/ No reason to play if no one is on my server =)

::EDIT::
Fun read none the less. Liked it lots =)

I think new servers would be most ideal for new players, or even existing players who came later in the game (no pun intended) and weren't present for some of the key moments. Simply because the existing ones have been developed - all the major "accomplishments" (to date anyway) have been achieved. Races have already been "freed". Lairs are accounted for, as are plots and such. So when a new player starts up now, they're coming into a world that is already established. I think it would be great for them to get to experience what those who played since the start did, to take on those same challenges and have those same opportunities available to them.

This brings to mind something that, personally, sorta bums me out when I think about it. I'm still a hatchling and I have a long way to go before I can obtain a lair. But, when I am ready - what will be available? Will there still be a choice of good locations, or will it only be some left-overs that no one else wanted? Large as it is, Istaria is still a finite world; I would think eventually there simply won't be any more room to build more.

I was chatting with someone in-game the other night who had finally reached the point where they could get a lair. They were traveling all over trying to find an available one. To my knowledge, they didn't; at least not while I was talking to them. And that's now. What will it be like when I and other new players get to that point?

I wonder if maybe that's a flaw in having something like lairs and plots be "permanent" and so finite. Eventually, the population of people seeking them is going to exceed the amount available and people are going to be left scrounging for scraps because all the better options are gone.

So, personally... If Vi introduced brand-new servers starting from scratch, I for one would likely start on one.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

[Starmind]

Would the old world sets still work in the re-re-re-re-re-updated engine?
That's the problem with that idea
It's also assuming those world sets are still on record.

[SinOfSuns]

While we're complaining about loot, I want to complain about hoard. I swear they stealth-nerfed it with the recent live update, because since then I've had maybe 10 hoard items drop in the space of about 5 seasons.... which of course does nothing to boost my already lagging hoard.

Having to kill things for hoard is fine by me, but making hoard extremely rare AND raising the hoard cap each level? Ouch.

As for techs... I don't really know much about the components since I'm only up to Tier III so far...

[Velea]

What have you been killing? Nothing was "stealth nerfed", but I believe I remember seeing something in the patch notes about some loot tables being cleaned up.

[Galilee]

Well, I did find that the drops of markers and tokens at the place I usually hunt for them went down drastically; at least 50% if not more. So that does sound like a rather big fall in those drops to me.
And while I am on the subject: any chance at all that the 'prices' (in tokens and markers) for forms and techs can go back to old standard, just like with Nadia,too? It's not just Nadia that has been heavily overasking in price: the way these token/marker prices were raised at a certain point in time was very drastic too... it makes it hard now to collect the things needed in the low tiers, if you don't happen to have a guild or group of friends that are too high to use them themselves, so pass them down.
So hope to see also thése prices go back to more normal.

[gopher65]

While we're complaining about loot, I want to complain about hoard. I swear they stealth-nerfed it with the recent live update, because since then I've had maybe 10 hoard items drop in the space of about 5 seasons.... which of course does nothing to boost my already lagging hoard.

Yeah. It wasn't a "stealth" nerf though, it was in the patch notes. "Loot tables have been cleaned up" and all that jazz. Some mobs (like wolves) just SHOULD NOT drop hoard, coin, or forms/techs. They are too easy to farm.

Anyway though, I noticed it too. Lots less hoard dropping in some of the things I hunt (I wish they'd have "cleaned up" the skulk loot tables too. They seem to have a 1 in 10 chance of dropping *anything* other than their junk drop, which sucks. IMO they should almost always drop hoard (from an RP perspective)).