Trying to understand why

[Pharcellus]

I'm a pretty hard-core player, and tend to view some excesses the game system allows some characters to do as "cheating". Most of them are due to bugs, though; a few are due to weaknesses / imbalances in the game system, but unless they allow for ridiculous amounts of advantage, I am usually not too concerned with them. I will applaud when the weaknesses are fixed (probably with a little bit of glee), but as long as they don't impact me, my friends, or the world significantly, I can overlook them.

However, for the ones which are blatantly cheating, like hacked clients, afk macroing, broken quest abuse, etc, I am fairly vehement about reporting/shunning said folks. Many people believe that they are unaffected by what someone else does in a PvE game, but it simply isn't true. Those who exploit often ruin the play experience for others due to hogging of resources, killstealing, and ruining the in-game economy, flooding it with the ir ill-gotten gains, or inflating prices because of the excessive amount of coin they generate. Personally, I have a problem with even the excessive levelling that comes as a result as well, but that's my own pet peeve; I don't expect anyone to share it. There were a few guilds back in the day who cheated excessively (water-walking, anyone?); some of them got ganked for it (more like wrist-slap, really), the rest just went about it business as usual until the exploits were fixed, then they went on to the next exploit. I shunned those guilds and warned people away from joining them.

Some people say "don't become a rules nazi" or "you're not a dev", but I don't have to be. The rules are there for a reason. People can choose to ignore them at their own peril, but I have no issues operating within the rules and doing everything I can to protect and enrich the playing experience for myself and my friends. I'd like to think I am also doing a public service, but so often the general consensus is "live and let live" even when everyone is getting screwed over as a result, so I don't have much illusion that I am doing it for the "greater good".

Cheating is not a playstyle.

[Peaches]

I agree with you there. However, it is a playstyle one chooses to play. And that , in of itself, is sad. ;(

[LaughingOtter]

When I go hunting the Northern Blight with my Helian Dragon, I would collect a hoard of them, then stand in a spot and cycle my aoe spells and aoe breath attacks. To someone with spelleffects turned off, it might seem as if I was standing there with all the creatures just dying around me.

No, Starmind, that's not what's happening in this case. I've seen the person Amerelium is referring to also. What I saw - and reported - was a player doing nothing - no attacks, no spells, no ability use at all - killing with CoT. The player could not have cast CoT on themselves, and there was no other player in the area who could have done it. The logs I gathered, however, show CoT expiring and then being renewed a few minutes later, despite the fact that no other player was visible on my map or by physical search of the area. The player did not respond to either /say or /tell, which to me indicates AFK combat macroing.

That is not using tactics. That is not a playstyle choice. That is cheating. I hated to report it because I know and respect the person who was doing it, but reporting is our obligation as players.

I make no apologies for reporting exploiters and encouraging others to do the same. However, what should be reported and acted on is behavior and only behavior. Simply associating with someone is not grounds for complaint and should never be the basis for disciplinary action.

That said, if you know someone is exploiting and you remain silent, you're still wrong even if you never take part and never profiit from it. The rules are very clear on that matter. Players have an obligation to report the existance & use of exploits - you agree to that when you click 'Play'.

[Guaran]

No, Starmind, that's not what's happening in this case. I've seen the person Amerelium is referring to also. What I saw - and reported - was a player doing nothing - no attacks, no spells, no ability use at all - killing with CoT. The player could not have cast CoT on themselves, and there was no other player in the area who could have done it. The logs I gathered, however, show CoT expiring and then being renewed a few minutes later, despite the fact that no other player was visible on my map or by physical search of the area. The player did not respond to either /say or /tell, which to me indicates AFK combat macroing.

That is not using tactics. That is not a playstyle choice. That is cheating. I hated to report it because I know and respect the person who was doing it, but reporting is our obligation as players.

I make no apologies for reporting exploiters and encouraging others to do the same. However, what should be reported and acted on is behavior and only behavior. Simply associating with someone is not grounds for complaint and should never be the basis for disciplinary action.

That said, if you know someone is exploiting and you remain silent, you're still wrong even if you never take part and never profiit from it. The rules are very clear on that matter. Players have an obligation to report the existance & use of exploits - you agree to that when you click 'Play'.

Well said.

Let's hope the dev's fix these exploits.

[Kala]

reporting is our obligation as players.

I agree entirely. It doesn't matter if it's friend or foe, cheating is cheating and should be reported.

(The following is not directed specifically at LO, in the event that some think it is...it's merely a commentary based on actions I've seen/heard in the game.)

Of course, following people around with the hope that you MIGHT spot them doing something wrong is essentially stalking. While there's nothing against the rules for doing that (except maybe under harassment), all it really proves is that you're fanatical about being out to get them.

If you're there when they cheat, fine. Take screenshots and logs of it and report them. There's no need for stalking and being vindictive. It's our responsibility to report things. It's not our responsibility to police the game.

Simply associating with someone is not grounds for complaint ...

Please spread this around more. Though, the people complaining about my opinions to my face have significantly dropped since I started playing invis. For clarification, that's invis on /who, not logging in invis.

[Lunhilde]

Mmm.. well this slow Elf has been busy elsewhere, and there aren't enough hours in the day for me to readback through all of the forums, so hopefully, all of this issue is right here.

I don't like seeing Aamer upset; we are of the Old School of HZ, after a fashion, and in that we share some common ground. If it were a real exploit and someone finding out how to cast something without the ability, well and good.

To start, CoT has always been uber-powered.. sorry druids.. Okay, uber-powered if cast on other folks. We used to make golem pancakes all the time with CoT... run in, golems attack.. splat. (I'm sure screenies have to exist somewhere still). Of course they were a bit below our Rating... well, I don't know what this person's rating is, don't know how the combat lag got fixed and if all spatial combat chat is going over correctly, never had a parser for Horizons... but...

Gods.. Istaria is big.

I remember years ago (literally years now) wandering down into some area around Chiconis where I certainly didn't belong and nearly getting owned (yes, I'll use the term, and gladly, because it makes me feel younger dangit) and I'm miraculously rescued by this solo player who was trailing a train as he came so save my arse. Was he cheating way back then? Meh, doubt it. All of the reasons listed are the same reasons things look like expoits - we can reach level 100 in everything..

.. sheesh... watch Sabast fight sometimes. He definitely got back into the rytmn of HZ combat.. I defintely didn't, and it hurts my heart, but apparently I have become a waste of a cleric here in Istaria while I was busy becoming a dang good one elsewhere. Anyway, he's a mage. And a few other tricks. Watch him fight and you'll swear the fiend is a cheater. He dances. He sways. He bows to his partner. He kills things he has NO business fighting alone. And if a funny message box pops up on the box with the pretty pictures in it he has to call for my help to fix the game machine-thing.

So.. I'm real careful on who I call cheater without concrete proof AND slapping it up somewhere - and when the proof is that concrete, you don't slap it up somewhere, you just send it where it belongs.

Aamer, my friend, I can understand your irritation. I can understand your frustration. One thing we have always had is a lot of heart. But there are times when we need to just let go and let.. well, let the devs handle it, and if they don't, and it really isn't effecting you, *don't let it effect you*. Being angry at bad doesn't make bad go away, it never did and it never will.

I still <3 you guys.

[Casyle]

JDexter...

I stood and watched a player with at least 10 elite blights and asorted veteran ones stand in one spot and not only not die, but drag mobs to him from well beyond the reach of my longshot. I could see NO other players close to him nor did I even see his health fall all that often.


He was not hogging the spawn because I could easily still get the mobs I wanted, and like I said it didn't hurt me personally in any way.

BUT... you have to admit, that if any player can handle all that debuffing and damage and do it for well over an hour and NOT be exploiting is some manner is just silly. Invis healers or hacked client I have no clue.

What I still don't get is what's the point? Or even if there IS a point.

Horizons is doing better under new management, and thats great. However, it still has a small player base and no working economy.

I guess I cannot understand why anyone would bother to cheat here. What "advantage" does it give?

RATING is the key! I hunt Elite Blights now so I've seen some of these people. *They're really nice* 4 of 'em have ratings over 170!

Now, if you saw a lvl 100/rating 100 biped doing that....

[Casyle]

I think I know who Otter is talking about.

If I'm right...

1. Said player is almost NEVER alone. His multi-classed wife is almost always with him buffing him.

2. Said player has the most tricked out sets of armor imaginable. I'd die of boredome trying to gather comps to make sets of armor for every occasion.

3. Careful about charging others because they don't respond in /tells. Especially this friend I'm referring to has failed to talk to me before in /tells because he's had so many up that mine didn't show up until he deleted some!

[Velea]

Locking the thread before it turns negative again.....