Trying to understand why

[Lupine73]

Bah... sorry to reply again so quick; not trying to spam the forums or anything. I meant to add this as an addendum to my post, but the 15 minutes had run out...

There's also no accounting in that article for the "Sore Loser" type. Sore Losers are competitive and do play to win - they'll issue rematch after rematch to try and prove they can win. They just cannot handle defeat, at all. Instead of just admitting they were beaten by a more skilled player, or played poorly themselves, they make all kinds of excuses... they had lag, their controls were sticking, the sun got in their eyes, someone/something distracted them... anything but "wow, I tried my hardest but you were better".

In that context, I could well see the article's example of someone saying "throwing is cheap" as a sore-loser's way out of accepting defeat.

In MMOs, some will go as far as blaming the class of the person who beat them as "overpowered", despite mountains of evidence to the contrary.

In any case, that's another shade of grey that I think further shows the whole "competitive" versus "scrub" mentality oversimplifies the whole thing.

[Shirewood]

I don't really know or understand what these people are doing to cheat and stuff in HZ.

While I was playing WOW, I would clear out a small area of mobs to get to a chest full of goodies. You had to clear the mobs out because you can't loot the chest while in combat. All too often another player would sit there and camp the chest waiting for you to pull the last mob away just to steal the chest away from you w/o having to clear the mobs themselves. I would be like WTF? and every time they would turn and say something rude back, emote a rude gesture or just laugh at you and run off. I even had someone say.. "oh get over it.. everyone does it"

You know what? Not everyone does stuff like that. Those people lack class in every way. I see people with bumper stickers that say "People Suck". I always thought that lacked class.. but, when you play a game like that with people like that you begin to agree with that statement. Makes you wonder how they live in real life.

You watch in the news when Katrina hit New Orleans... and people started looting.. The low life scum bags run out and start ransacking and looting everything they can get there hands on. WHY? Sure, I can understand looting for food and stuff in dire need. I don't see no dire need for a 52" plasma tv. ****.. the idiots didn't even have electricity or a home to put it in.

It's the way it is. I'm sure it was that way in the middle ages. You just have that class of people that have no class, no morals, no decency, no respect for laws, and no respect for anyone else. It's all about them.

If people in HZ are cheating the game, the owners will take care of it I am sure. They will get what they deserve. It's not my call. If these people are hogging stuff so others can't enjoy the game as intended.. and are being down right disrespectful to another person playing.. and not being considerate enough to share mobs.. then.. what can you do? Some people do "suck", and like everyday life.. you have to learn to deal with it. Submit a ticket.. let the GM's deal with it. Just don't lower yourself to their level. We're better than that!

[Aamer Khan]

So far, the posts in the thread have been thought out better than normal.

Well done.

The bottom line of course is that ONLY the DEVS can affect any lasting change, since only they have to power to ban, or change mechanics. They have an obligation to themselves to protect the game from disruptive influences be it players or anything else.

However, instead of crusading to get specific players banned, I have chosen to try and keep us all discussing this openly on the forums with two goals in mind...

1. Keep the issues in front of the DEVS until they either change things to fix them, or acknowledge that what is happening IS intended and will not be changed.

2. Encourage the community to openly make it's ethics known.

Every community, whether in rel life or inside a game has a moral/ethical set of standards they apply as a group. As an example of what I mean take what happened in MP on chaos the other night. A new player was talking in a manner that seemed like he was fostering the idea of gold farming ( in this case, actually saying mithril "creation" ). This alone was enough to have him reminded why that just would not fly in Horizons.

Nobody likes having society view them as an outcast due to breaking community standards. And nothing says you can't try to do what you like. However, there are stated rules we are all bound to, and standards the community imposes whether we like it or not.

So if you want to cheat, expect some to disapprove. If you wish to buck the communities standards, then expect to be treated as an outcast. If you don't like that sort of treatment, then the solution is very simple to state but hard for some to do... start following the rules.

To believe that you can function in any society or community without rules is to deny reality.

[Kala]

In Horizons, I don't have to worry about kill stealers, naggers, harrangers, (or perhaps that's just the RP Order Shard) Why do you think I keep coming back after almost 5 years?

I do. Perhaps I should be playing on Order then?

The funny thing is, I haven't done anything wrong to warrant being harassed and harangued.

I'm occasionally "guilty" of not inviting people I don't like into a group. Yes, sometimes those groups were specifically to kill SoG or Valkor. I DID invite people sometimes so that omigosh, yes, I would be sharing. Why? Because I'm not competitive enough to want to hunt him all the time and because I'm not competitive enough to want to hog him all the time. Why don't I invite people I don't like? I'm not going to invite them to hang out with me RL, why would I invite them to hang out with me in game? Would I invite people who needed to finish their quest? Almost certainly. I didn't get invited to groups all the time...I figure they're full or someone doesn't want me there and I get on with my life.

I don't frequently hang out at the flies. Why? Well, for one, my rating is so low, I don't need to. Maybe when it get significantly higher than 111, that will change. Yes, I know, hanging out at the flies isn't considered cheating or an exploit. There are people who consider it evil or the easy way out though.

I don't kill-steal. You know what I do when I attack the same mob someone else did? I apologize that I didn't see them there and I move to another part of the spawn.

I don't craft exploit. Believe me, if I did, I'd have higher craft schools than tink at 100, conf at 78, 4 schools between 40 and 60, and the rest lower than 40.

Sometimes I'm overly sarcastic in public channels. Sometimes I'm grouchy. I have tried to keep that to a minimum since I know it's neither appreciated nor wanted. I DO help people out from time to time.

I guess that means my only other crime is being outspoken in public and NOT agreeing with the vocal majority. 'Cause you know what? That's what I was getting harassed about the most. Do I enjoy being one of the voices of dissent? No, not really. That will not, however, stop me from speaking my mind. Neither will people constantly telling me I'm in the wrong simply because I don't agree with them.

[Kala]

Every community, whether in rel life or inside a game has a moral/ethical set of standards they apply as a group. As an example of what I mean take what happened in MP on chaos the other night. A new player was talking in a manner that seemed like he was fostering the idea of gold farming ( in this case, actually saying mithril "creation" ). This alone was enough to have him reminded why that just would not fly in Horizons.

Um, farming is actually pretty commonplace in most games I've played. It's when you start selling/buying it online that it becomes an issue. Unless going out to the marrows at Valkor and killing them as fast as you can has suddenly become shun-worthy?

As for moral and ethical standards, since when is it acceptable for people to harass someone based on what they think? Not what they do. Not what sort of behavior they think is good. What they THINK.

[Braun]

"I stood and watched a player with at least 10 elite blights and asorted veteran ones stand in one spot and not only not die, but drag mobs to him from well beyond the reach of my longshot." --- Aamer


Aamer my friend, this isn't a cheat or an exploit... I know I can pull over 30 blights at a time. And if I keep a druid nearby (visible, but not necessarliy grouped or with me in the thick of the fight) for the occasional rez, I can do this all day. And adding a range tech to certain spells can let me pull farther than a longshot can.

Please be careful when choosing your words to label people or their styles of play. Because people play in a manner different than others (even if different than the "intended" methods the games devs had when designing this game) dosn't make them cheaters or exploiters... even if it's fashionable to hate these people.

[Tempests]

I admit, I have not read this whole thread, but wish to point out to Aamer that I was in the area. Seemingly at that time I was labeled as an exploiter because I was in the area. I remember seeing Peche and Kissa fighting a bunch of blights and was pretty impressed watching them. I remember seeing Aamer pulling blights by himself. I have done that. Grabbed a few and pulled them to a spot to take care of them, it is fun. Later DarkVengeance appeared out there. I spoke to him too and he told me that the area he was in was good for solo work. I took screenshots of the people out there. (I take lots of pictures, it is fun. I even have some friends who pose for me.) I was talking to a few friends at the time. They know I was out there.
I think that the factions that have developed in this game are passed their time. We now have developers working on expanding our world. Let us enjoy their offerings and step out of our hazy past and into this new world?
Tempests

[KillerGoon]

Nobody likes having society view them as an outcast due to breaking community standards. And nothing says you can't try to do what you like. However, there are stated rules we are all bound to, and standards the community imposes whether we like it or not.

So if you want to cheat, expect some to disapprove. If you wish to buck the communities standards, then expect to be treated as an outcast. If you don't like that sort of treatment, then the solution is very simple to state but hard for some to do... start following the rules.

To believe that you can function in any society or community without rules is to deny reality.

Standards the community imposes? I don't know of any individual who can make me act a certain way or play differently than I enjoy playing. As far as believeing I can function in society, I don't really care what "the community" thinks of me, especially if they've been ill informed and/or told that I'm a "bad guy" or a "cheater". If people chose to not associate with myself or others because of the influence of a biased opinion, I'll be more than comfortable sleeping at night. I know who my friends are and very few dislike me because of the fact that I happen to not like including backstabbers in our boss mob groups. Also, "the rules" is a great blanket to throw over a lot of twisted agendas and vendetta ideals, but to say that the community imposes certain "standards" and that we should follow "the rules" is rediculous, partly because it's too vague to draw from and secondly, there's nothing that we do that is against the actual end user license agreement, the "rules" that matter and if something gets ammended in the EULA that affects the way things go down at boss monster hunts, those rules won't be broken either.

[Silverblaze]

I'm going to put this is very blunt terms, please dont remove the post but edit it.

Stop crying. My first piece of advice.

Second is to adress some questions.

Why do people metion exploiting in every post. Its called an attention getter in most forms of writing, firs t thing they teach ya. its not exploiting to be good.

How do people pull farther than longshot with rangefinder and a really good bow?

Simple actually, the agro is different now, especially blights. they are rather social. I play a dragon, I cast baslt teched for range...55 btw. i hit 4 blights...a blight up to 10 or more meters away can add. I didnt pull him and I dont want him, buit the good news is..i can kill him

make cetrain you are being outranged...70-90 is hard to judge for certain, lets not accuse, without proof. something many like to do.

as for staning in a field for an hour. Well let me put this inperspective.

Aside from bosses, multi attacks, or direct damage...some t6 aboms, and a few casters with teched flame bomb 6....almost nothing hits me for over 50 a swing.

blights hit me for (7) energy damage...elites... I dont use energy resist and blight resist on all my scales, just (2) radiant energy resist crystals. I use the ceremonial chest scale. i can tank ALOT of blights. Bipeds are often better suited to this than a dragon.

I'm good at what I do. As a dragon i'd dare say I am among the best. played one for a very long itme.

there are people better than me at playing a biped, i wont lie. But I'm gettign there. I dont craft much, I fight, I learn tactics and I prevail. I prevail where many falter. I dont exploit, I very likely never will knowingly.

I have an idea. its radical, so prepare to serve me like history served all radical thinkers, with hatred, death, or outcasting them.

Fight, learn, rise above the challenge.

I'll even go religious. 'judge not lest ye be judged' its simple really.

Know how I got this good? I PLAYED the game, didnt post about it for years, didnt even read the forums. I maintain its just a place to whine. I have noticed something, the battle field has changed. Its easier to fight with words, propaganda and skulking to acheive. So i too shall rise to the challenge. I too will be there to defend those I know, when wronged.

maybe I'll get rusty. but I doubt it.

Know what I dont understand? Why people don't just carry on. Worry more about themselves. in EVERY game, you find people who are not liked. in everyones life this is also true. Gossip, rumors and such fill the real world.

high school for example. Why I wasnt popular, i didnt care what people thought. You have to.

Sayeth that you come here to escape persecution, to enjoy time and have fun? Heed your own advice. I come here for the same thing. Yet people become pariahs. Why? that I dont understand.

Perhaps its fun to point fingers and ruin peoples game, thorugh insult, insinuation and other forms of intrigue. So be it, but I would hope the devs would rather work on developing the game than mediating school yard disputes that people on this game used to handle with /ignore, and good ole' fashioned yelling back and forth. its like getting the bourts involved when both parties can stop bickering and grow up.

I used to sit the fence. I used to watch the battles go on behind the scenes seeing myself a warrior against hte aegis, playing the game.

i'll adjust and "fight" where needed. Lets not make this game about who can post more and be loudest to get stuff done. Self focus and achieve my friends.

Look not without, but within.

Stop crying.

[Silverblaze]

I cant edit that post, there are typos everywhere as I was very passionate about what I wrote, I do apologize and hope no one sttops to picking on my typing.

[Creme]

Many of those actually exploiting are multi-classed high level adventurers that never sell their loot nor do they generally participate in the economy.

This exploiting that you're referencing you later go into detail here:

I stood and watched a player with at least 10 elite blights and asorted veteran ones stand in one spot and not only not die, but drag mobs to him from well beyond the reach of my longshot. I could see NO other players close to him nor did I even see his health fall all that often.

I've seen solo players pull the entire field of blights and do it over and over again. This was not a solo player, like you mention, but 2 players grouped and clearly visible. Were you physically next to them in game? Do you get game lag in high mob density areas? What is your max characters set to? Or did you see both players and choose to misrepresent facts to cry wolf and stir up the community with a witch hunt? If you were out killing blights yourself, how were you able to constantly monitor their health bars to see whether or not they took damage and stay alive?
Here's some basic stats with fully teched energy gear which a LOT of players that kill blights regularly have or can have:
Druid: Armor - 2076 (no surge)
Energy Resistance 936
Energy Ward 699
That's with T5 energy resistance, T5 energy ward, 1 caramel apple, 1 T5 shining energy crystal (T6 would give an even higher benefit, but I didn't have one to eat).
Base evasion 1021, + evasive style1102, + forest mist 1282, + dryad dazzle 2182

They have high level well teched gear, and even have other players to heal them and assist in pulling large numbers of mobs to them.

I'm not sure I'm seeing what the problem is with having T5 teched gear or where the exploit is here. As far as other players heal and assist in pulling large numbers of mobs to them, I'm not sure how you could take offense or hint at something wrong here. First you say it's exploitive for a solo player to do this or that they must have an invis healer or a hacked client, although many do. Now you are criticizing groups of players pulling large numbers of mobs? I'm not getting where groups killing large numbers of mobs is a problem. You stated that they weren't hogging the spawn, as you were able to pull and kill blights yourself. So where's the problem?

Because of the state of the economy, folks would not be likely to buy any of the rares they have even if the did try to sell them. They are a disruptive element in the game for those that are trying to get the very same drops, but I can't believe they can hog ALL spawns of that type of mob. They also don't seem to affect the economy one bit.

I believe the OP has made other posts in other threads about there being no economy in game. What's your point here?

OH, I get it, you are an accomplished cheater.

You have yet to show how any of this is cheating, especially considering how other players saw more than the single player you made accusations about. Unless you somehow are referring to your longshot vs a T5 range teched spell, and I really can't see how you can compare ranges unless you were standing right on top of them, trying to pull the same mob.

BUT... you have to admit, that if any player can handle all that debuffing and damage and do it for well over an hour and NOT be exploiting is some manner is just silly. Invis healers or hacked client I have no clue.

I'd suggest you talk to some players in game that kill blights a lot. There's quite a number of highly skilled players that SOLO can manage huge numbers of blights, even more than the 10 or so elites + veterens you mention.

What I still don't get is what's the point? Or even if there IS a point.

I'm wondering the same thing myself, as it's been established that players CAN and DO solo blights regularly. This was 2 players, although you post that you only saw 1.

I guess I cannot understand why anyone would bother to cheat here. What "advantage" does it give?

You keep bringing up exploiting, cheating, which are really negative, and you do it all through insinuations with no proof and no conclusive evidence, in spite of the numbers of players that have stated that they can and do handle many blights SOLO.

The bottom line of course is that ONLY the DEVS can affect any lasting change, since only they have to power to ban, or change mechanics. They have an obligation to themselves to protect the game from disruptive influences be it players or anything else.

Where's the disruption here? You said you could pull/kill blights and they weren't spawn hogging. Why the dramatics here?

1. Keep the issues in front of the DEVS until they either change things to fix them, or acknowledge that what is happening IS intended and will not be changed.

2. Encourage the community to openly make it's ethics known.

The community according to whom?

As far as other posts. Tempests, Kala, Silverblaze, I agree 100%.

Let not ignorance of facts blind a player to making baseless accusations and trying to stir up trouble where there is none to be found.

[gopher65]

Here's some basic stats with fully teched energy gear which a LOT of players that kill blights regularly have or can have:
Druid: Armor - 2076 (no surge)
Energy Resistance 936
Energy Ward 699
That's with T5 energy resistance, T5 energy ward, 1 caramel apple, 1 T5 shining energy crystal (T6 would give an even higher benefit, but I didn't have one to eat).
Base evasion 1021, + evasive style1102, + forest mist 1282, + dryad dazzle 2182

In order to stay on topic I'll first say this: Obviously being able to survive a mass pull of weak mobs isn't cheating. That's using the normal game mechanics (multiclassing, teches, etc) to your advantage. In this part of the game, the only thing I'd call an obvious exploit is using a gamebug to become invulnerable. This *points up* is not an exploit. This is tactics.

EDIT: I had a question on wards/evasion, but I decided to start a new thread with it instead.

[Creme]

Standards the community imposes? I don't know of any individual who can make me act a certain way or play differently than I enjoy playing. As far as believeing I can function in society, I don't really care what "the community" thinks of me, especially if they've been ill informed and/or told that I'm a "bad guy" or a "cheater". If people chose to not associate with myself or others because of the influence of a biased opinion, I'll be more than comfortable sleeping at night.

We are all, collectively, the "community" and all from different walks of life/cultures. Dictating what is or is not acceptable, or even making assumptions about an individual based on their style of gameplay, or goals in a game is arrogance. Trying to force the imposition of a select few's vision is also arrogance.

It's far too easy to pin labels to blackball, or blacklist someone. This game is trying to grow, not shrink it's playerbase. The attempts to drive people out because they don't "fit" in someone's community vision is only going to make the game suffer.

Sadly, too many labels are being slung around, by players that should look at the logs in their own eyes (and no, I'm not referring to any poster on this thread).

Pax.

Well stated Lettum.

p.s. This is a game, not "As the Hard Drive Turns"

Let's stop this soap opera stuff, kk?

[Silverblaze]

If the intent of this thread and those like it were to divide the occupants of istaria. Then bravo. I wont spend much time on this post, i'f off to enjoy the pure wonder that is Halo 3, where I am applauded for putting the boots to my fellow man.

Let such aggression out on the mobs or games like i discussed just now.

At present it should be obvious to players and devs that ther are opposing factions and folks caught in the middle. ( Referring tothe chaos shard)

What neither side wants to admit and its even hard for me becuase of opinions I'll not voice is simply this.

When events happen...and I am confident that they will. I want more knowledgeable people aiding the gifted aginst the horror of horros the devs unleash. Whether your name is Stizostedion, Tarran, Valtur, Nayuaka, Kimchee, tempests, Archangelis, Arokh, Kala, Jayne or Ignem...we'll need to put aside some differences to save aug or dali or somethign again.

Forgive me for the sudden change into hippy mode, but regardless of who you are, some events you'll need help with. I certainly hope on that day, we arent too busy crying wolf about exploits to slay the undead horde.

[brainbasher]

i think this is the trouble that thread starter was refering to exploiter stuff if that helps dev,s in that new thread.

[Vahrokh]

This should really let die now.

As "external" player off Unity I can't believe Chaos has such a mix of:

- crybabies
- haters
- litigation seeking ill tempered people
- self-promoted policemen

Now, I am titanium tempered by decades of seeing and living in the most rotten brown matter so it won't really change a comma for myself, but imagine someone new trying to enter the game, flaunted for the "community" and then he sees this stench. He'd be immediately driven off the game, the game per se is not "polished" enough to grant new players to stay even if the playerbase is jerky.

Everyone please step down their righteous / defensive / offensive pedestal and resort to hate whispers in game if this is all what you can produce.

This thread should actually be locked or moved, it lost its purpose at all, someone not knowing how people can throw those hissy fits in a 50 players game will be driven off.

Make love, hate the WA.

[Greenclaw1]

You get the gaming terd in every gaming community. These gaming terds are like a feral beast probing at a farmers chicken in coop in the middle of the night for a weakness and once they find it they exploit it. They exploit it because they can and for the easy rewards it yields. The farmer will come along and patch up the weakness, but the feral beasts return and probe once again until another weakness is found or take advantage of the old weakness that still fails to stand up to the task.

If you've played any other MMO's lately you'll be aware of the gold seller spam problem. You'll find it's these same gaming terds who'll be the most likely customers to these MMO gold farming sweat shops. As it's another weakness they can exploit to yield easy gains over others.

[Henry Redacre]

almost *entirely* off topic, but not completely....

Hey Varokh! Thanks for posting a link to that article on the first page. I checked it out, and that website has some other decent articles on there too.

Good stuff!

[Amerelium]

Many of the things mentioned here ain't exploting. What IS though, is what I saw the other night: Someone standing stationary, not moving at all, attracting scores of blights, that all die mysteriously around said char. This character is contantly healed, and placed near a tree or an archway. No one else can be seen around.
This takes place on a regular basis on chaos. And it's in violation of the rules.

[Starmind]

When I go hunting the Northern Blight with my Helian Dragon, I would collect a hoard of them, then stand in a spot and cycle my aoe spells and aoe breath attacks. To someone with spelleffects turned off, it might seem as if I was standing there with all the creatures just dying around me. It isn't cheating, it's just the fact that I way outclass them poor mobs. I make 100-400s per hour doing this. It is about the only way I know to make cash relatively quick.
If you're offended by me killing things that I can and "farming" for cash, well feel free to tell me a better way to make cash heh.

I don't do this very often anymore. It's just too boring. But I'ld dislike being "reported" for cheating when there's no cheating involved.