in game Econnomy

[fireblade]

after reading though a few thread with people complaining about a non functioning Economy, mainly due to lack of new players.

but it strikes me that if the economy requires new players to function then it isn't actually really a functional economy but just a partial simulation even if had a supply of new players.

while im not an expert on economies

it strikes me that the actual problem would be that while there effectively a continual input of resources, very little is actually used up and leaves the system.

and if you really wanted a functional economy you would have to have, things breaking and needing repairing or replacing (using resources) to ensure a continuous flow of resources


what is anyone else's opinion on this?

[Chioxin]

A lot of that is spot on! Very true...

The other reason our economy is umm.... meh.... THere's no need for money unless you're buying a plot or you want to buy stuff from Nadia. Due to no need for money, people are much more likely to be nice and kind and do things for eachother free of charge.

The only economy I really witness in HZ is this though which is good enough. It's like back in the old days.

"Hey uh, if you do my iron sheets, I'll do you stone blocks. Deal?"

Yay barter system =)

[brainbasher]

taking up your point on barter....would work lot better if had restriction on number of crafts you can do...current game supports ill do stone blocks and when i level fitter i,ll do the iron sheets...if this is the main charm of the game jack of all trades other than dumping stuff on pawnbroker for cash for plots etc...we need economy based on replacement,for example in other games you loose say your space ship and have to buy new one.
At NT their is a growing increase of things to buy as new players start crafting(but due to large numbers they can put on)their is a flood and this pushes prices down....so back to dumping on pawnbroker.
i,m not sure what the answer is but it needs addressing so as to improve the craft side of the game...

[Nanain]

I like the freedom tho, for me it's always been a big part of the game. And I remember bartering way back in the old days on earth for sheets anyway. Just coz u *can* doesnt mean u want that pain ^^

[Chioxin]

Ya, agree with the both of you =) Just stating why the economy is pretty much non existant in HZ... The only prices to compete against are Nadias... and that's just for components.

[Royal]

Solution would be more cash-flow out. From players to the NPC's.
Then especially for the very rich ones. I think best solution would be: Bring in not-craftable not-lootable items who havent got any effect on the game.

E.G. The armors who some NPC's wear. Make them buyable for like 3G/part. Make them attuned aswell. People will go for it and try to colect the sets.

Guild-attuned items would be nice aswell.

[fireblade]

Solution would be more cash-flow out. From players to the NPC's.
Then especially for the very rich ones. I think best solution would be: Bring in not-craftable not-lootable items who havent got any effect on the game.

E.G. The armors who some NPC's wear. Make them buyable for like 3G/part. Make them attuned aswell. People will go for it and try to colect the sets.

Guild-attuned items would be nice aswell.

i dont think that would make any long term difference

as such items dont expire or get used up and need replacing so once you have them that's it

so still requires a constant supply of new players.

an economy requires

things to be produced and used up to create a constant flow through

source -> conversion -> sink

e.g

wheat (source) -> flower (conversion) -> bread (conversion) -> you(who eats it)(sink)

the problem is

ore(source) -> bars(conversion) -> Sword (conversion) ->?? (it just says here, there is no sink)

the above example showing why that without supply of new players (creates demand), and in general players leaving (things finally removed) the "economy" doesn't work

[fireblade]

taking up your point on barter....would work lot better if had restriction on number of crafts you can do...current game supports ill do stone blocks and when i level fitter i,ll do the iron sheets...if this is the main charm of the game jack of all trades other than dumping stuff on pawnbroker for cash for plots etc...we need economy based on replacement,for example in other games you loose say your space ship and have to buy new one.
At NT their is a growing increase of things to buy as new players start crafting(but due to large numbers they can put on)their is a flood and this pushes prices down....so back to dumping on pawnbroker.
i,m not sure what the answer is but it needs addressing so as to improve the craft side of the game...

id say that limiting the number of crafts isn't really a solution plus it limits freedom

if you want to ensure an economy you a have to both ensure a constant consumption of items so replacements are needed and have it comparatively inefficient time wise to have everyone produce their own things.

a simple possible way to do that would be a "mass production bonus"
e.g a 5% mass production bonus

for every 100 of something you produce in one go you can make 5 extra

might need to be larger to work but encourages you to produce lots rather than 1 for your self, and as producing more requires more time encourages you to specialise in one area, and you can produce "cheaper" than someone could produce 1 for them self

[Helious]

if you want to ensure an economy you a have to both ensure a constant consumption of items so replacements are needed and have it comparatively inefficient time wise to have everyone produce their own things.

If you want a player-led industry then the above is what you want .... if you want a player-led economy however something else is required.

source -> conversion -> sink

e.g

wheat (source) -> flower (conversion) -> bread (conversion) -> you(who eats it)(sink)

is completely right for industry but for economics there is a qualification at the start that really drives the engine forward that is

exclusive ownership of source -> conversion -> sink

of course this is never gonna happen in an mmorpg ... i understand that, but just for a second imagine this. The ore no longer lays around the ground in neat areas, you adapt the lairshaping code and players have to go find an ore seam and build a mine thus getting sole ownership of that seam of ore. Now that's taking crafting to the next level

But back to Horizons (and for that matter any current mmorpg) and if you want a player based economy realistically two things have to happen .. neither of which can be done by the players themselves.

a) the 'sink' must be enlarged.
b) the 'source' must be controlled at source.

the devs have their hand on the throttle of any player-based economy. Increase the sink and decrease the source and the economy will fly. People will do what people do best and adapt to the situation and either become rich or a consumer

now do either too much and the game dies, no one can craft cause there isn't enough ore or you can't keep up with demand and players are unable to play cause their waiting for someone to make them armour ... would you wanna be responsible for getting it wrong?

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[Chioxin]

exclusive ownership of source -> conversion -> sink

of course this is never gonna happen in an mmorpg

EVE and SWG did this quite well I thought ^..^

EVE - People controled space and well, if they were an organization that wished to have exclusive rites to the ore in that space and it was 0.0 space [where you find awesome materials] ... they set up patrols and gate guards!!! So freakin' cool. I loved working in another organization that essentially tried to break into this space and mine the ore. You could sell it well since it was harder to get at. Provided a lot of interesting game play as well.

SWG - Not to sure of this but you pretty much had to watch how the minerals moved? They had web pages for it and the planet resources shifted every day or so many days. Really cool deal actually. You planted down miners to try and get at the stuff, but only so many miners could fit in a space. There was also a "quality" to the ore as well, so it wasn't just "a bronze brick" it was "Quality 50 Bronze brick" ... which also effected your armor.

I'm sure some of this could be addapted to HZ but the question is... how... and why? And should we? I ask "Should We" because it could harm the community feel, and to top it off... It might destroy the community by creating to much competition for stuff.

[Theros Ironfeld]

B.O.P or bind on pick up and
B.O.E Bind on Equip
would solve the hand me downs overnite
repairs via NPC only would bring in the money sink
simple and effective

[Royal]

i dont think that would make any long term difference

as such items dont expire or get used up and need replacing so once you have them that's it

so still requires a
............................
ing why that without supply of new players (creates demand), and in general players leaving (things finally removed) the "economy" doesn't work

Yes, true, but its an easy to implement short term solution I think. And by making the (in example) armors unique and expensive player will buy them ^_^
(and the have some niceones aswell)

[Steelclaw]

While I'll agree that there isn't as much trade and coin changing hands as there should be, I have a slightly different hypothesis for the stagnation: not enough people are even trying.

I get a quick look at the stuff on the consigners almost every day. Yeah, there is a lot, and most of it is cast-off loot (blighted gear, biped forms and techs), as well as un-teched beginner gear. Why don't I see more mid and high level gear? (Actually, don't answer that, I know why, I'll get to that later).

For the past few days, I've been doing an ongoing experiment with selling basic resources -- stuff like bronze and iron bars. Intuition says that nobody would pay for something they can get for free. Well... it turns out that if you sell it at the right price, someone will. Now if only more people would try selling large stacks of resources. That would be an immediate boost requiring no developer interaction at all. (It also turns out that this would feed another big sink: plot building.)

As for the mid-high level items, people want teched gear, they also seem to want an entire set at once. This means that a crafter trying to consign items directed to more advanced players will have to guess at the desired tech configuration, obtain the dozens of comps, make the full set, and hope that someone buys it. That is a risky investment and I don't blame them for not trying. Hopefully at some point, technique kits (much like the Withered Bane one) will start to show up and become more widespread. I believe having those around will move the tech configuration back to the buyer and reduce the risk of the crafter's investment. In turn, that would encourage crafters to make more mid and high level gear. (Actually, it would probably encourage them to make the tech kits... same effect though.)

Ah, but what about items never leaving the game? That may be a problem once churn and growth die down. However, item decay addresses shortages in demand, what I currently see is a shortage in supply. The above changes (tech kits and more people encouraged to sell resources and other consumables) should happen before declaring item decay the magic bullet for fixing a stagnant economy.

[Rhialto]

What you need for a good functioning econmy is a Central Bank that issues fiat money and get rid of the horrific goldstandard in Horizons.

This way this central bank can manipulate the value of money through bubbles and busts and keep you in perpetual serfdom through inflation due to the lending practises of the council of grandmasters.

If you keep the goldstandard you will get richer and richer by your own hard labor and at one point you dont need more than what you have. This is a really stupid system and has proven very bad for controlling economies and player behaviour.

So lets petition for the abandonment of the goldstandard and reinstate a central bank run by Vitrium for our own benefit so we will perpetually be able to enjoy laboring to keep what we have...

hmmmmm sounds familiar...

[Starmind]

Bah, enough of the poorly veiled marxist philosophies. We should all revert to a simple barter system.

[Galilee]

Just throwing in an idea: make 'using a resource-facility' cost a little money. Say you can get a disc full of bronze from such a place for 10c, maybe a disc full of nickel 500c, disc of mithril a silver or two, something like that (translated into a very small price per piece that you mine/reap/gather of course, to make it unimportant in what container you put them when gathering/mining).
Then give a discount to miners and gatherers, but that discount only gets put in your purse when your item gets sold at minimal the piece-price for non-miners/-gatherers.

Using a machine to do the first step of processing (bars, stones, bales etc) again costs a small amount of money. Apply same principle as above. Maybe each step up the chain of processing the same, not sure on that.

I think this would greatly stimulate the trade in raws and first-step-processed materials. Miners and gatherers would be able to sell around the price that playes could also go get it for themselves, and still make profit; so players will buy, miners/gatherers will be valuable members of society, and economy will get started again.

Put in tech-kits, as Valimar I think proposed to do as first a while back, and the higher items could become well-sold again too.

In the long run, I do think a realistic (so very mild!) item decay on usage (not on time-base, make sure collections can cover dust and stay unharmed when not used!) will turn out to be neccessary to keep a good economy going. I am thinking of very mild though! An armorpiece, realistically can go along for a lifetime (if repaired whenever needed); so make it that way in game too! But 'once upon a day' the thing will be used up and will need to be trashed or recycled back to bricks/bars whatever; so one day a player will buy new, even when using 'the end-weapon/ -armor/ -tool'.

Just some thoughts, probably with flaws; but maybe a thought that sparks more idea's?

[Vengeance]

Just throwing in an idea: make 'using a resource-facility' cost a little money. Say you can get a disc full of bronze from such a place for 10c, maybe a disc full of nickel 500c, disc of mithril a silver or two, something like that (translated into a very small price per piece that you mine/reap/gather of course, to make it unimportant in what container you put them when gathering/mining).
Then give a discount to miners and gatherers, but that discount only gets put in your purse when your item gets sold at minimal the piece-price for non-miners/-gatherers.

Using a machine to do the first step of processing (bars, stones, bales etc) again costs a small amount of money. Apply same principle as above. Maybe each step up the chain of processing the same, not sure on that.

I think this would greatly stimulate the trade in raws and first-step-processed materials. Miners and gatherers would be able to sell around the price that playes could also go get it for themselves, and still make profit; so players will buy, miners/gatherers will be valuable members of society, and economy will get started again.

Put in tech-kits, as Valimar I think proposed to do as first a while back, and the higher items could become well-sold again too.

In the long run, I do think a realistic (so very mild!) item decay on usage (not on time-base, make sure collections can cover dust and stay unharmed when not used!) will turn out to be neccessary to keep a good economy going. I am thinking of very mild though! An armorpiece, realistically can go along for a lifetime (if repaired whenever needed); so make it that way in game too! But 'once upon a day' the thing will be used up and will need to be trashed or recycled back to bricks/bars whatever; so one day a player will buy new, even when using 'the end-weapon/ -armor/ -tool'.

Just some thoughts, probably with flaws; but maybe a thought that sparks more idea's?

Interesting ideas, but I have to dissagree with you. We should not be paying to gather resources. Nor should a crafter be charged for using a shop they may have built.

I like the idea about tech-kits. What istarians need are items worth spending money on. I think we need some rare loot out in the game and it needs to be more than mob dropped. I remember getting the Christmas ornaments when gathering resources. I would like to see a system like that set up. Let crafters and adventurers share in the oppritunity to find good stuff. It would make sense to me if the crafters had a slightly smaller chance of finding an item than a person out killing badguys. However, if a crafter did locate an item dialogue could pop say to some extent, "While chopping on a Yew tree you notice and old wood peckers nest and inside of it -insert some item name-."

I do believe we need something to spend money on. I would prefer, what ever it maybe, if those funds went back into the community and not some NPC

[Galilee]

Let crafters and adventurers share in the oppritunity to find good stuff.

I sure like that idea

As to paying for resources: it would only be a very small amount (and maybe there are nooks and cranny's elsewhere, with resources though further apart, that are free to get; choice is always good); and only be meant to get things into the shops for sale again (so, while thát amount indeed goes to npc's = sink, also needed: it leads, I think, to money going from player to player). But I might be seeing that wrong of course, that's true.

[velveeta]

Bah, enough of the poorly veiled marxist philosophies. We should all revert to a simple barter system.

come to blight.....

[Starmind]

Horizons doesn't really have an economy.

Economy: the disposition or regulation of the parts or functions of any organic whole; an organized system or method.

In a true economy, prices are governed by the balance between supply and demand. This is not the case in Horizons. If it were the case then players could sell resources to pawnbrokers for exorbitant amounts because the demand for such goods is very high.

Solutions to balance Horizons' Economy:
1. Decrease the resell cost on pawnbroker.
2. Give a minimum price value on consigners (no more storage consignment)
3. Govern price on pawnbrokers by a simple system of comparison of availability system-wide. (IE: If not a single consigner or pawnbroker has the item throughout the world, it must be at least a little rare, thus the price should be higher)
4. Have a TRUE banking system with loans and savings accounts where savings generates interest just like the loans charge interest.
5. Defaulted loans cause money made at consigners/pawnbrokers to be "confiscated" to pay for the loan.

These are just a few ideas to actually create an economic system in Horizons. At this point, there is no true economics here.