Chaos and Order update?

[CallakDW]

The following updates were applied to Chaos and Order on 09.25.2007:

* FIX: XP credit is properly applied when at a distance from monster and lost if you move away.

* FIX: Tail Swipe does crush damage instead of slash damage.

* FIX: Crystals can no longer be installed or removed from items that are equipped.

* FIX: Removed redundant message when binding to a shrine.

* FIX: Removed unnecessary message when opening the Plot Survey window.

* FEATURE: Added "Available Quests:" to greet response when one or more quests is available through the NPC's quest book.

It says these were performed on the 25th, but I know my tails swipe was still doing slash damage yesterday, and no visible update occurred when I logged in. Anyone else notice this?

[Krystine]

In the earlier update they added master spool form and Master Crafter emblem. Those didn't make it into game either. So not everything is getting added as listed.

[CallakDW]

O,,o Sloppy, very sloppy. Lets hope that they (Vi) pull things together a little better in the near future. Saying and doing are two different things. If they can't even manage to get their said changes in place properly, I suppose I can understand why they allow so many bugs and problems into the game.

[Vahrokh]

O,,o Sloppy, very sloppy. Lets hope that they (Vi) pull things together a little better in the near future. Saying and doing are two different things. If they can't even manage to get their said changes in place properly, I suppose I can understand why they allow so many bugs and problems into the game.

I found this pretty offensive and uncalled for, expecially seeing where the game comes from and what they got in their hands.

[Dremora]

I find that odd; one of the first things I did when I logged in yesterday was use Tail Whip and it DID do crush damage..

[Star-Fyre]

I took a peek in my log from today. Was wondering if it might be an issue with the shard, since Dremora from Order shard just said it's working there...

[09/27/07 10:44:57] You hit Elite Blighted Blight with Tail Whip for 144 crush damage.

Looks to be working for me here on Chaos too.

[CallakDW]

I found this pretty offensive and uncalled for, expecially seeing where the game comes from and what they got in their hands.

It was intended to be the truth, if it was offensive or not. So far they are 2 for 2 making mistakes with updates. They messed up lair halls, and missed items that were supposed to be updated in the first one. One mistake, fine, but then they went to fix lair halls and borked a bunch of other people's plots so they couldn't work on them. Next update they miss other stuff that was supposed to go into place. Where I work, I usually have to go in and test my change on production to make sure it's working as intended after release, if it isn't, I better have a solution by end of week.

I've never seen such serious mistakes in WoW, and if I had such a track record where I worked I would be out on on my ear in no time. I am not sorry for what I said, it's true, very sloppy quality of work so far. Don't let your desire for this game to succeed blind you to what is going on here, I want it as badly as you, but the state of the game is as it is because of stuff like this.

I think they are rushing to get stuff out just to try to please the croud, but rushing it is worthless if it doesn't work right.

Oh and what they got on their hands? Am I not correct that many of the employees from Vi are ex Tulga employees?

[CallakDW]

I took a peek in my log from today. Was wondering if it might be an issue with the shard, since Dremora from Order shard just said it's working there...

[09/27/07 10:44:57] You hit Elite Blighted Blight with Tail Whip for 144 crush damage.

Looks to be working for me here on Chaos too.

I'm from Order, that's where I noticed it after I saw the patch notes. Very curious. Will check it again when I can get into the game again.

[Starmind]

Really. Anyone who programs knows how hard it is to come in on someone else's code and fix it without affecting other things. This is even worse if it's poorly written and/or not well documented.

From what I hear, the original code on HZ wasn't very well done and there was next to no documentation.

I do Siebel Customization and I can attest from experience that it's very hard to be absolutely sure that something you do doesn't have unintended consequences. Give them some time.

My best suggestion for them is to get a few more testers to test their changes before going live with them. Most the errors they encountered should've been caught. Slow down a little and take your time to check, double check, triple check, etc.

I've waited for 3+ years for HZ to improve, what's a couple more months?

[Pharcellus]

It says these were performed on the 25th, but I know my tails swipe was still doing slash damage yesterday, and no visible update occurred when I logged in. Anyone else notice this?

They were probably updated on the back end, some time after you last noticed on the same day, as all of those changes are server-side.

Yes, I think they were probably a little too eager to push this update out; there was still plenty of testing that could have been done on it before it went live, to be sure.

Repeating the mistakes of the past will plague the success of the future.

[CallakDW]

Really. Anyone who programs knows how hard it is to come in on someone else's code and fix it without affecting other things. This is even worse if it's poorly written and/or not well documented.

I understand this but that just makes this:

My best suggestion for them is to get a few more testers to test their changes before going live with them. Most the errors they encountered should've been caught. Slow down a little and take your time to check, double check, triple check, etc.

Soooo much more important.

[Durand]

In their defense, I have logged 4 tickets, 3 were resolved within a few days if not the same day. The last was passed on as a fyi to the staff. I wish every error that was made would be caught, but given how unbelievably responsive and honest they are in admitting and correcting mistakes, I think a few broken things slipping through isn't that big a deal. This is code for a game, not code for patient care.

Also, I didn't see an update yesterday either. If these were changed on the server side, then there wouldn't be an update to the clients. Depending on how the system is built, you may not have seen the change until you logged out (thus disconnecting from your server) then logging back in (reconnecting to a different instance of that server). Of course, I guess the developers could kill your server instance and thus your session. I have found that if you do that, people tend to get upset and you start recieving emails.lol

[Krystine]

I just wanted to point out that sometimes things don't make it into game as intended. I'm very happy we have developers who are making an effort. I'm not a developer but do know things don't always go as planned. If we don't post the things we notice they may not become aware of them.

[Vahrokh]

Where I work, I usually have to go in and test my change on production to make sure it's working as intended after release, if it isn't, I better have a solution by end of week

Where I worked, new software would be done with all the best shiz, from Extreme Programming to automated regression tests to UML and CVS, test on a limited users sample before putting stuff in production, and an insured (military, so it was something serious) path to undo everything and return to the previous situation in case any problem arose.

At the same time, we forcibly got in the same contract to have and maintain legacy software.

Several enterprise custom programs, the smallest being 10 man years big.

No documentation, no object orientation, BAD sources with absurd variables, awful "solutions" usually involving defective third party libraries / OCX / OLE off long time deceased companies.

It was living hell, and those programs ran from Windows 3.1 to Windows XP, from HP/UX to Novell Netware, to Aix / Solaris / Linux workstations thru an infinite layer of ports / clients / agents and so on.

We *REALLY* tried keeping the same high standards listed above but the stuff was immense, undocumented, idiotically written. A change of a variable in a module would result in hidden database heavy corruption one month later via AS400 in the central branch of the enterprise. Any bug in the parts storage costed that company USD 300,000 in damage.

Horizons is not different. Developed with older methodology and zero documentation, uses obsolete proprietary libraries and (but I cannot say by personal experience, just off some who developed for AE) pretty confused and cobbled together sources.

Despite they are part of the original staff, Vi cannot grant good quality and flawless patching until they redo a lot of the past stuff. It'll take years.

Having been in their shoes for 6 years, I know what running in their lead shoes means.

I've never seen such serious mistakes in WoW

Comparing who works for WoW and the facilities and tools at disposal is just unfair.
It's like you compare how bad dressed is the beggar on the walkway to Valentino.

Originally Posted by Starmind
My best suggestion for them is to get a few more testers to test their changes before going live with them. Most the errors they encountered should've been caught. Slow down a little and take your time to check, double check, triple check, etc.
Soooo much more important.

And here comes the catch: they are working on limited resources, when they proposed a rise in subscription fee the sky started falling.
Testers actually demand to be paid, when and if they get the money for it, they will do that.
Or would you prefer they go Chapter 11 again for living above their possibilities?

I did not find offense in the actual "sincere" words, but in the quick judgement without mercy.

And I find embarassed at having to side like a fanboi, as I loathe buttlicking. But I am human, programmer, and worked in troubled companies in the past enough to get emphatic, so I can't just leave it go.

[diabolis]

O,,o Sloppy, very sloppy. Lets hope that they (Vi) pull things together a little better in the near future. Saying and doing are two different things. If they can't even manage to get their said changes in place properly, I suppose I can understand why they allow so many bugs and problems into the game.

Id rather have this happen than have nothing done at all like the past year with that other company that I would rather not say their name, because it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Diabolis

[CallakDW]

This is a bit rushed as I have to get back to work but:

Vi:
First off. I'm going to appologise to Vi.
I wasn't originally going to say anything about the problems that arrose with the original first update because I realize that it wasn't all their work that went into that one. But it would have been a lot more impressive if they could have caught the problems before they made it to production, but stack apon that the second update that I THOUGHT had issues (I still can't confirm that everything implemented right because I cant start the dang game still) before I got confirmation from another player. I felt I'm seeing the same pattern arrise that each other company that took this game over displayed.

Vahrok:
You have said much that I don't have time to comment on at this moment, but believe it or not, I do sympothise. But I've seen now 3 company takovers, all displaying the same problems with spending enough money to actually bring this game up to par. The first two all did the same thing, rushed buggy updates out in the beginning to try to show off, then peetered off to doing nothing when the cash ran out, then selling out. I left when the updates stopped before, but I don't know whitch is worse, no updates or ones that break things every time they are put out. It sounds to me that what is needed is a strong coorperate backbone willing to put money in the game, equipment and employees to make real things happen.

[Alladania]

I think that the things that are happening are as real as it's going to get for the time being. I'm happy someone cared enough about the game to try to keep it going for those of us that still want to have virtual lives in Istaria. I'm glad to see patches happening at all. Mistakes do happen - at least they're acknowledged and dealt with. If I were on the receiving end of a bug report (and I am, as I work for a small software company) it makes my job a lot better if people can report the bugs to me without slamming me for letting them happen in the first place - but that's just my .02.

[CallakDW]

Mistakes do happen - at least they're acknowledged and dealt with.

Agreed, but with allmost every update? I don't agree with that. And before Vi, at least, they weren't allways acnowledged and dealt with, I still remember how long the construction exploit was around, that was serious! It was still around when I left. Is that still presant?

If I were on the receiving end of a bug report (and I am, as I work for a small software company) it makes my job a lot better if people can report the bugs to me without slamming me for letting them happen in the first place - but that's just my .02.

I don't slam for slamming sake. I begin to get angry when bugs are reported and nothing is done about them for months and years. I still see several graphics flaws hanging around the game that I reported years ago, to each and every company that took controll of the game. I'll do it for Vi as well when I get the time. Mabe they will listen and actually fix them.

[Tryagain]

I found this pretty offensive and uncalled for, expecially seeing where the game comes from and what they got in their hands.

many games on the market. Many just as good if not tons better than HZ. Its very competitive and if you can't live up to the performance bars already set then you get swept aside.

Vitrium does have some time to get their feet back up underneath them. But time is something Horizons has a short supply of.

2008 is looking to be a very promising year for the MMO genre after many stale lack lustre years before hand.

That all being said arguments and debates on who develops what and what best practices are in place in said small software company mean nothing. This market is its own beast with its own set of rules.

to that end are you all really expecting that much out of Vitriums 3 man operation ? You are going to have to tailor your expectations with this fact kept in perspective.

[Dhalin]

Maybe the Tail Whips got changed depending on dragon size or tier?

Maybe a hatchling's still does slash, but an Ancient's was fixed to crushed?

I haven't tested mine Yet... but these are just possible things that it could be, why Person A would get it and Person B not...