Seconard Rites for Early Fliers?

[Kaerisk]

Some elder dragons, myself included, hold that a hatchling should take their Rites at fifty seasons of adventuring. To be fair, this notion varies from dragon to dragon, though I do not know any among us who would intentionally want to see our race weaken. Of course, that does not mean hatchlings do not make it to their wings before they are ready and, for some dragons, a hatchling that does is considered a hatchling for the rest of their lives, even should they become ancients themselves.

This tradition has rather interesting roots. Part of the reason for this tradition is due to the Ancient, Vladtmordt, who will not give powerful and historical scales to adults as their choice has already been made. Part of the reason is that the Rites of Passage themselves demand a strong individual to overtake their challenges and that, barring certain particularly rough creatures, you would need that skill to complete the Rites entirely by yourself. (And, to drop out of character a moment, I believe that part of the reason was that leveling to fifty, however annoying it may be for a hatchling, showed a type of commitment that a dwindling older player population wanted to see. Why invest energy and roleplay and time into someone if they are just going to decide, 'eh now I'm an adult dragon and I'm bored now?' With the game returning to development now, hopefully this will be less of an issue in the future.)

It is a rather harsh employment of ritual and tradition. Until the Ancients get off their tails and review the Rites, which no longer test hatchlings in the way they were intended to test them years ago, I propose remediation. Some of you may not know me, for I have kept from the community's field of vision since the Novian Transition. Nonetheless, I have been here since the Dawn of the offensive and many know me now as someone who looks out for hatchlings and tries to teach them our history and ways, our traditions. I am a Keeper of History now, and this is the place I have chosen for myself. I do not know if I am best for the job, but I am willing to take the time to do it. If one historian continues to condemn hatchlings who are tempted too early by the promise of wings, let another one be their redemption.

I propose a second set of Rites for young adults. If hatchlings who go through the Rites at the time Elders would prefer them, they will continue to earn a place among us, for that path has already been set. For those who have come to regret their choice, let these Second Rites earn a place for them. And of course, those that choose not to take them may continue their lives as they see fit. But as this is more than some old dragon like myself blowing fire but a community of dragons, let me give you what I have begun to develop for these Rites, and let those like myself who still hold the old traditions tell me if it is enough.

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Secondary Rites of Passage
Requirements: 50 seasons of adventuring, 40 seasons of crafting, one Dented Bell as a symbol of that which is to be repaired.

Features: A tailor-made Rite of Passage for an individual that is much harder to use the help of others to complete, simply due to uniqueness of the tests ahead. Young Adults choose a path of Warrior, Scholar, or Eldritch. This represents the place in draconic society they wish to take a part in and develop. If a dragon should wish to chose a different path, such as I chose Historian, they may chose it and of course the tasks will be altered to fit that role.

Tasks: Tasks will be far more individualized and test in ways that the First Rites do not. For example, a warrior will of course be asked to fell a great beast, but a warrior too must be able to tell of that battle; therefore, there might be a test of oratory in the form of a storytelling at a gathering. There might be forging and naming of claws which can be verified as an individual's work; there might be a training regiment that a warrior must decide upon and enact. Anything that might describe a 'dragon warrior' could be used in these Secondary Rites. Tasks may also be directed under Helian and Lunus slants; a Helian Warrior, for instance, would have different views and tasks than a Lunus Warrior.

Failure to complete a task: If a task is not done by an individual, is not completable by the individual at the current time, or is not done to some pre-determined requirement of satisfaction, the Secondary Rites are halted and may be resumed within a week's time.

Completion of the Secondary Rites: Once a pre-determined length of challenges has been completed, the dented bell is replaced with a gold one, and the passing individual is announced on the dragon channel and here on the boards.

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Now, kyn who hold to this tradition of fifty seasons, is this enough for you? Would it be enough that an individual is truly tested to claim his or her place among us? Is there something you would like to change or alter to what I have thus far devised? Please, give me your thoughts. As someone who spends so much time looking over hatchlings and trying to help them to know and respect the old traditions, it is breaking my heart that we should voluntarily create another Schism within our community. I cannot dictate for this community; therefore, let us dragons speak our minds and create this community together.

[Kaerisk]

(I swear this forum is out to get me. Now I can't edit my post at all. Can I get the name of the post changed to 'secondary' instead of seconard?)

[Tcei]

*Rumbles and snorts*
I hold as I have since completing my Rites at an early season that waiting until 50 only benefits the hatchling as its more capable of helping in the battles. The Rites are meant to be an event that every hatchling will need help no matter if they are season 30 or 100, very few of us will ever be able to take all those battles alone, for those of the Lunus path, that is particularly true with the Shadowdragon.
I stand firm in my belief that a single scale does not define us as a race nor does acquiring a certain scale mean that it, as you say, "strengthens" our people. I had acquired the lesser scales but had replaced them within a season or two myself, and would likely do the same with this one.
Ultimately all hatchlings will begin their Rites whey they feel they are ready. In my eyes those who are willing to undertake the grueling task at a younger season and succeed are just as worthy and strong as those who wait until they are a much higher season. It is those who fail to complete the Rites that are weakening to our race, and as such they will remain hatchlings always.
Whether you view me as a hatchling for all eternity for ascending at an early season and/or for not getting a particular scale matters little to me. The Rites arent about being able to complete as much on your own as possible or even growing larger and attaining flight. It is to teach us much more important lessons.
They teach us the importance of community and of working together as one. Where else in your hatchling-hood did you ever really and truly need the help of others as you do in your Rites?
They teach us that you must be willing to stand your ground no matter the odds and fight for what you believe in.
They teach us that we must be willing to make great sacrifices in order to obtain those things which we hold dear.
If nothing else a hatchling will see that just because they have gained the right of flight after their ascension does not mean that they can simply fly away when the danger grows too great, especially when there are others who are not so fortunate, such as another hatchling or even a naka Best to make your stand against your enemy and fall, giving your companions time to flee than to flee yourself and let them fall in your stead, based simply on the fact that they are unable to escape as easily as you. This is a duty I have taken seriously since I first left the ground, ask any hatchling that has seen me fall protecting them.
In the end I believe I have earned the right to stand next to other adults, I fought and did my best to help those who helped me in my Rites. I see no reason why I should have to or even be expected to undertake another test of some sort just to prove myself to those who think I am somehow lesser than they for not waiting until a certain season or until I acquired a certain scale. I am just as capable of making the same sacrifices you can. I am just a capable as fighting against creatures as you. I am just as capable of protecting those weaker than I as you. And most importantly, I am just as capable of contributing to the community just as you can.

<ooc: jeeze Lan can go on forever cant he? :P>

[Kaerisk]

Thank you for your input Lantua, but I am afraid it does nothing to solve the problem. You see, these points have been argued to death and I am done arguing. No one is forcing you to do a thing as an Early Flier.

Please do not come to this board to argue for or against the tradition. It *exists*. My only desire is to find a way to heal the wounds. As neither side will abandoned their positions for equally good reasons, I hope to find an appeasement for both sides if one choses to take it.

Would any one else like to speak?

[Galilee]

Just an idea from a Naka, so probably not worth much (so feel free to throw it away quickly; but on the other hand... there áre times when fresh eyes see things that covered-by-history dragon-eyes perhaps are almost unable to see; maybe, just maybe this might be such an occasion?).

What has always put me in wonder, is the fact that a hatchling *boom* just becomes adult one day (even if after a long quest).
What misses, for me, is the time of being a youth: not a 'baby-hatchling'; but not a real grown-up yet, either.

Would it not solve a lot of things, if this 'inbetween-time' was to be given hands and feet (ermm... claws and paws, I mean)?

Would it not be an answer, to divide the current series of quests to become an adult into two parts?

One part at say level 30 adv/25 craft in which the hatchling can become a 'youth' (a better word for that is no doubt available): a youth that can fly and that has the way opened to him to truly go and discover the different paths he will have to choose from at the end of his youth (and with the needed abilities to actualy do so: make it so he truely can experience both ways, helian and lunus, in this period of his life).

The other part at level 50 adv/35 or 45 craft (plus also a certain level in lairshaping, I would think; an adult after all needs to be able to make his own lair to live in); this part being the bigger occasion in which he truely earns the right to become an adult; the part also where his definite choice must be voiced to become a lunus or a helian dragon. Having been a youth, with experiences tuned toward getting to know both ways well befóre having to make the own choice, should make this choice when the need comes to make it much more valuable, should it not?

And being a youth with fly-ability would also take out the feel of urgency, for many, to become adult at too youthful age; while not taking out the desire to become adult later on (maybe flight-height could also go up a fair bit on the day he finaly becomes adult?)

Just thoughts floating on the breeze...

[Deth]

Galilee that is just it we just do go "boom" and are adults. I forget the exact reasons, I think it has to do with the blight, but we dragons no longer age and so can not grow up. With the rite we build a new body that we envision as we would look like as an adult and as the rite is completed we leave our old hatching body behind and create a new body for our selves. So there is no need for stages.

[Galilee]

Seems I have some more lore-reading to do... so not a very 'logical' idea I understand.
Still, you are hatchling, then adult, then ancient; so one more stage to it would (in theory at least) be possible I think?
But anyhow, it might not be feasible even if it would be desired; don't know.

<thinks it a pity that this solution doesn't seem usable; but another one surely will be found some day by someone>

[Tokoz]

All /ooc

/em kicks the dead horse to the side before it tries to walk again.

Well, you obviously went through a bit of trouble to work out a good roleplay solution. I always wondered about dragons that went through a "rite of passage" with a bunch of adults still holding their hands. That's a role-playing thing though.

Some people still have fun going through Oblivion with "tcl" active etc. It's how they enjoy the game I guess. I don't understand it myself because for me, it doesn't really leave any sense of accomplishment. If you can go anywhere and do anything to get to the end, where's the challenge in that?

But it all comes down to a couple of concepts:
The first is that some people have fun playing that way. Those people think that waiting an extra fifteen levels or more is just plain stupid. Some of them even think it's annoying to see non-flying dragons that should have been flying already.

It's possible they're thinking, "If I work it out that I can be flying as soon as possible, it will really annoy some of those old fart hatchies." But I doubt it. They're not griefing, they're just playing a game. To quote Mr. Bean. "It's a race. I'm winning. I'm winning." Annoying old fart hatchies is secondary, if even that.

The second thing that's important on this is that, to paraphrase David Bowman in ancient history, higher levels helping lower levels will always be an important part of Horizons. If the RoP wasn't supposed to be done that early, they could have made it so the quest wasn't given that early.

The reason the dead horse keeps getting kicked is because both sides think that the game should be played their way. It's like the people in World of Warcraft that say things like "disc spec'd priest u l0s3r."

I was disappointed to find out that the quests were way beyond me when I first got them, so I waited. Some people choose another way.

hmmm, seem to have a wandered a bit. Back to the topic though... Nice quest idea. Haven't seen anything quite like it suggested before.

[Kaerisk]

We dragons must go through a process of recreation in order to grow up. Age is somewhat a secondary concern for us; we live quite a long time as it is, and can reach what bipeds would consider stages of age much sooner. Some believe that this necessity is due to the destruction of the Sleeper; some believe it is due to the presence of the Blight upon this realm and a way of speeding up what might happen normally. In terms of history, however, Gemenoth the Elder was the first adult to ascend to ancient five thousand years ago, only by going through the Gate of Embers to meet with Drulkar, who gave the dragon his blessing and new form... It is unclear whether or not we were capable of growing by way of age prior, but do remember that we are unique in that we were not created by the gods, but created ourselves upon our arrival here over eight thousand years ago. It is my belief that we experience this unique age-transcendence due to the fact that we do not grow in the way a biped would.

I thank you for your input, biped, but what you suggest is something the Ancients would have to do. We as a community cannot expect them to review the Rites in an expedient matter, hence why I have offered an alternative.

Any other voices? I will make my decision within a week's time whether or not this is a viable mediation based on the input from the community. Remember, this is not the place to air grievances about the tradition, only about my suggestion.


((Thanks for the post Tokoz!))

[Tcei]

My apologies for posting again, after having re-read your post again, I have some questions about it.

From a pure mechanics point what incentives would there be for an adult, early or even late flyer to do that quest?
It strikes me that this would really only appease those who believe that you should do your RoP at/by a certain level, and serve as another point to pick at. "Oh you're an early flyer? Have you done your second RoP?" "Why haven't you done your second RoP?"
Granted I understand that no one has to do it, just as no one has to wait till 50 to do RoP, but still there seems to be very little reward at all for such a task. The golden bell is really not worth much horde (assuming it'd be the same as the ones dropped).

From an RP standpoint it makes a bit more since, those who did their RoP early and now suddenly feeling guilty and inadequate for it for whatever reason can now "prove" their selves to their selves and the community as a whole.

As to why we have RoP Galilee. The story involves the Sleeper, a holy symbol of sorts of dragons. The story essentially goes, one day long long ago some humans were at war with one another near the foot of the mountain leading up to where the Sleeper rested. Eventually a man with a very powerful sword capable of destroying anything,even able to rip tears in the fabric of reality, appeared and chased one army up the mountain (much to the annoyance of the dragons). At one point the tattered remains of the army took shelter, and made their last stand under the claws of the Sleeper. When the man swung his magic sword killing most of the remaining defenders he also hit the claw of the Sleeper.
It being impossible to destroy the Sleeper, and the sword being capable of destroying anything, reality had a problem. So reality dealt with it the only way it new how, and in an explosive storm everyone, dragon and human died, and the Sleeper, and probably the sword where cast into what is known now as the rift.

As a result of this event, due to the magical energies and the importance of the Sleeper to dragons the ability to age was lost, and dragons had to find away to grow by creating their new bodies through the Rights of Passage.

[Frith-Rae]

I think what Maekrux is suggesting is not a dev step - but a community RP entirely step.

So that those who wish to partake of such we can work out this system (much like we did putting up bonding ceremonies etc.), and those that do not will I hope - not be looked down upon.

Myself also being a historian *snorts* You would have to design something spexxial for me .

Though I am certainly interested myself - sounds like fun and interaction!! All good!

[Zexoin]

Agreed as long as it remains a personal choice, and early flyers that do no wish to do these second rites should not be looked down upon, like Frith said.

This is something that should also be fun and attractive for those early flyers.

[Kaerisk]

(Lantua: Frith would be correct, this is entirely RP driven. The Gold bell isn't for adding to the hoard, it's a symbol that the individual who passes shines. Game-wise, there is very little I can offer in terms of incentive; I certainly can't create items and I am still one of the poorest ancients around ;p

The reward for such a thing is simply to help heal the community. Also, ideally, such a challenge would be fun, non-game driven, and community building. Considering that we have only one adventure class and two crafting classes, a sort of non-level advancement is the best we can hope for at current time. I prefer a proactive approach and am thus trying to create one.

In addition to these reasons, it is also a helpful way of thinking about our characters and showing them to the community at large. For instance, most every dragon NPC we meet has some sort of career, trainers that watch over hatchlings, trainers who have perfected a particular art or skill like drain strike, primalists, warriors, even Jynasix, both merchant and dimension-ripper. Of course, we all fall under the loose role of 'gifted' but why not develop our own roles and demonstrate them to the community?

Your point the reaction of elder dragons 'why haven't you done your second rites yet' is certainly valid. I agree with Zexion in that those who chose not to take them should not be looked down upon and OOC I certainly don't. IC, however, is another matter, one that Maekrux is trying to work with. Ideally, the choice of saying 'I will not do the second rites' as an early flier should be a conversation ender right there, but as we already know from the original argument, it *won't* end there. ><; Perhaps I am extending it out some in my effort, but at least some can choose a non-game based advancement as their 'real' rites and patch up any sore wounds that might have come about.

Very good, keep the questions and concerns coming!)

[Carenath]

(IC) I respectfully disagree with you Maekrux. What you are proposing, is at best a compromise that really seems to be acknowledging that "early fliers" were wrong to do so in the eyes of the community, and now be given this test as an option for them to prove themselves to this community. And I agree with what Lantua said. We should not need to prove ourselves to anyone, weither you choose to ascend at 36 or 56, it matters not. If you Maekrux, are wanting to change the status quo, how about lowering the requirements from 50 to 45 or 40. It might seem like a steep drop, but, it would go a long way to.. bridging the gap a little. At season 45, a dragon is halfway there to the required level to start the Ancient Rites, it would seem a more logical season, since there is no tradition that requires Ancients to wait beyond level 90 to start and complete their ascention.

[Kaerisk]

I appreciate your belief in my power, but I am afraid I am not so omnipotent. If it were so easy to reduce the tradition of waiting until fifty seasons, the compromise, of course, would be unnecessary. I am merely a Keeper of History; I cannot dictate the will of the community nor even speak for it.

If you mean for me to reduce my secondary rites to 40 seasons, I suppose that would not be too unreasonable. But so far, none of the traditionalists have spoken; perhaps they would have such an input on that potential revision?

[Carenath]

I was referring to the traditional 50, but I accept your point. I disagree with the necessity of the compromise. Conservative thinking, stifles new ideas, and hinders progressive change that ultimatly benefits the whole community. But I have a suggestion of my own.

Asside from your suggestion of an alternative RoP, to give early fliers the option to prove themselves to the wider community of their commitment, how about giving those of us who wish to fly early, the ability to prove ourselves worthy of starting the RoP from season 40 instead of waiting to season 50. It gets more difficult to advance in seasons between 40 and 50, and many grow impatient at the level-grinding.

By at least agreeing to a "second" primary RoP, a pre-test as it where, hatchlings could earn the help of higher season dragons that otherwise would choose not to help someone so young. Analagous to the initiation rites that some guilds (on Chaos at least) require hatchlings to do to prove themselves worthy of membership.

OOC: It would be analagous to how learner drivers often need to take a test before acquiring their learner licenses before being able to take their full driving test to earn a full licence.

[Kaerisk]

A pre-Rites? Well, that is not quite what I had in mind. Perhaps the secondary Rites would be a better-feeling fostering if they were presented as pre-Rites as a way to prove they are ready? To be offered at 40 seasons, with the same sort of requirements. And of course, those that should so decide post-Rites could make use of them as well?

I suppose this is one compromise, but I still await the other side. I feel as if I am Abandoned Isle harvesting iron while several billion snow ogres pound on me with their bats.

[Carenath]

A pre-Rites? Well, that is not quite what I had in mind. Perhaps the secondary Rites would be a better-feeling fostering if they were presented as pre-Rites as a way to prove they are ready? To be offered at 40 seasons, with the same sort of requirements. And of course, those that should so decide post-Rites could make use of them as well?

That would work. It could serve both purposes. I would gladly take such a pre-rite, to earn the right to ascend earlier then 50 seasons.

We shall see what will happen.

[Tokoz]

Bah, you still have an adult hatchie with wings and another adult or ancient holding them by the hand.

Carrot, anyone?

[Dremora]

I for one think the secondary Rites are a good idea. Those who have chosen to start the Rites at a mere thirty must be led by hand and have everything done for them. They cannot damage an enemy very affectively, if at all. The Rites of Passage are supposed to be a trial for the hatchling, and as such the hatchling should be able to fight what they have been sent out to fight, not stand by or try to hit the enemy in vain as the others do their work for them. Secondary Rites are an excellent chance for such hatchlings to redeem themselves.

OOC- Being a bit of a hypocrite here since I ascended at 37! But to be fair no one told me of the pros and cons or of the level 50 hatchling scales and after I found out about them I regretted not waiting longer, so having RP secondary rites is a good idea I think. But only to those who'd like to participate in them, of course! I've known some people who ascended early for particular reasons, one even being because she was in the hospital and may have not had the experience of flying a dragon in the game. These such people shouldn't be looked down upon at all.