Original Ancient Model

[Dremora]

I'm not sure whether or not to post this in General or Suggestions, since it's a suggestion as well, so I'll just post it here.

I've been wondering how many people would like to see the original ancient models come back. I realize that you could always download it, but then obviously not everyone would be able to see it.

If yes, then why? And if no why not?

I myself would go with yes, since an ancient dragon is supposed to be very distinguishable from an adult, and right now the only thing that is is the slight size difference and longer necks. Further, a biped or hatchling would easily be able to see under an original ancient model without it blocking too much of their vision.

[Fratricide]

Personally.. I feel that the original Ancient models are a bit large for meandering about the realm of Istaria. If they were to bring them back... I'd also like to see them instate an "aging" reduction in physical abilities and an increase in mental abilities. That would, to me, be a lot more realistic... an old fart dragon would be no where as agile and strong as is an adult dragon. Anyway... my opinion only matters to myself so..

[Tcei]

Im all for it, I dont see how/why the larger model causes any issues. On a visual level there not really being any difference in height kinda makes me see no reason to even try for anceinthood. With Lan being as small as he is,and with the current ancient modles it'd only make him as tall as the avg adult . Its why I went with the original ancient mod :P

[Xanthia]

I have never used the "Original Ancient Size" mod until actually today, and I have to say I am liking it so far. Not so much difference really other than OMG, the slit in my throat has magically disappear! I wouldn't mind if they revert it back to the original size models. Though... my friend is going to have to now repair the holes in his roof everytime I enter the guild house.

[Casyle]

"Who are the 3 that said no!?" Casius asks as he sharpens his claws on a grindstone.


I don't know why anyone would say no. If I remember correctly, the larger models allowed bipeds to actually stand under a dragon and SEE what's going on without having their upper halfs in our stomachs.

[Dremora]

"Who are the 3 that said no!?" Casius asks as he sharpens his claws on a grindstone.

*snip*

I don't know why anyone would say no.

Which is why I'd like it if people would reply and say why, or in this case, why not. If Vi were to consider this they'd need to be aware of the pros and cons, I'd think.

[Fratricide]

"Who are the 3 that said no!?" Casius asks as he sharpens his claws on a grindstone.


I don't know why anyone would say no. If I remember correctly, the larger models allowed bipeds to actually stand under a dragon and SEE what's going on without having their upper halfs in our stomachs.

I said NO... and I already posted but a few of my reasons... I have posted in the past some of my other thoughts about what they should do with the dragon models... but those that adore their dragon characters would never go for it I'm sure.

[Takora Drakan]

I would also like to come then back, but in the past we had a side long thread with the askings why and why not big ancients, till now not a really dev response to it why they did it and if they will change it back. Stop to beating the dead horse and install the mod.

[tramsan]

I also said no. Adult and ancient dragons are already too large to fit in with the other races. As in, they get in the way in Bris, in groups and other such places. If you want to use the old ancient models yourself, be my guest, but don't make me exercise my setscale button more than I already am.

[Pharcellus]

I said NO... and I already posted but a few of my reasons... I have posted in the past some of my other thoughts about what they should do with the dragon models... but those that adore their dragon characters would never go for it I'm sure.

Actually, you only posted one reason, and it was basically wasn't so much a reason as a general observation "because it would make them too large". Yah, OK. Why?

The rest was some non-sequitur point about skill/attribute degeneration due to age which makes no sense whatsoever in the context of the question.

1) Ancient doesn't mean decrepid. In many fantasy stories (and games), the "older" a Dragon gets, the more potent and wise they become.
2) In Istaria, everyone (player characters) is "Gifted", meaning "Immortal". No one "ages", or suffers from what we understand as the effects of "old age".
3) The suggestion would make more sense if framed in a context with a similar request for bipeds, like: "As a biped's rating goes up, he/she/it becomes more aged, suffering from its effects, like attribute degeneration". Tying it to a visual model change for one race doesn't make any sense (yeah, to me; others can speak their minds on the subject, agreeing or not).

[Pharcellus]

I also said no. Adult and ancient dragons are already too large to fit in with the other races. As in, they get in the way in Bris, in groups and other such places. If you want to use the old ancient models yourself, be my guest, but don't make me exercise my setscale button more than I already am.

When I was Ancient size on Blight during testing, I got in no one's way in Bris or anywhere else. People told me specifically things like "Wow, now I can see the mobs under you! Sweet!".

I also think that our need to not look broken (the slit in our necks is hideous) trumps your need to not have to exercise your setscale button more.

*shrug* you don't have to group with Dragons if it bugs you, but it otherwise doesn't affect you or anyone else any more negatively than it affects us positively.

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

I voted no, but with some reservations.

There seems to be a discrepancy between "bring back the ancient models because the current ones have a problem with the heads not fitting right" and "rawr i am an dragon i need to crush people and be as large are possible on other people's computers because of reasons unstated here." I agree that the models need to be fixed ASAP, but not with the bigger just because argument.

Megalomania aside, if u want your draggy to be rediculously bigger than everything around it you can make it bigger through overriding the new models with the old ones, but I disagree with trying to force that opinion on other players as dragon ego trips tend to really get in the way of the much smaller bipedal players trying to occupy the same space and actually click on things that /aren't/ dragons.

[Casyle]

I want the old model back because... Well, it was the ORIGINAL model as I understand. Better yet, I remember bipeds, yes BIPEDS, loving the larger models because they didn't obstruct their view like the new ones do.

No offense Fratracide, but your reason for saying no sounds like a joke or trolling. "If dragons want their ORIGINAL model, make 'em physically deteriorate!"

Besides the Immortal bit, as another mentioned, in most lore dragons get more powerful as they grow. Physically and mentally. Only at the very extreme end do you see dragons too large and too old to physically fight, but then those dragons have always, for me, been shown to have obscene magicaly powers.

[Casyle]

I want the old model back because... Well, it was the ORIGINAL model as I understand. Better yet, I remember bipeds, yes BIPEDS, loving the larger models because they didn't obstruct their view like the new ones do.

No offense Fratracide, but your reason for saying no sounds like a joke or trolling. "If dragons want their ORIGINAL model, make 'em physically deteriorate!"

Besides the Immortal bit, as another mentioned, in most lore dragons get more powerful as they grow. Physically and mentally. Only at the very extreme end do you see dragons too large and too old to physically fight, but then those dragons have always, for me, been shown to have obscene magical powers.

Now that I've played a dragon AND a biped, I understand how frustrating I can be as a dragon when I run "over" you to help someone and obscure your view, keeping you from attacking what you want, healing who you want, delaying you, et cetera.

*Prepares the tar and feathers for Hal and Frat*

;p

[Dremora]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I would also like to come then back, but in the past we had a side long thread with the askings why and why not big ancients, till now not a really dev response to it why they did it and if they will change it back. Stop to beating the dead horse and install the mod.

I realize that as before, when a thread was made ages ago about the ancient size nerf, this might also go ignored. But honestly, you never know, really. It'd be nice to get a dev's reply here so I'd know if this is all in vain or not.

Megalomania aside, if u want your draggy to be rediculously bigger than everything around it you can make it bigger through overriding the new models with the old ones, but I disagree with trying to force that opinion on other players as dragon ego trips tend to really get in the way of the much smaller bipedal players trying to occupy the same space and actually click on things that /aren't/ dragons.

For the record, I'm not trying to force anyone's opinion on anyone else. It's why it's a poll and not an outright statement "I want the original models back".

[Lunarya]

I voted yes, I recently installed the new model, and my reasons for voting yes have been already mentioned, I just have a reason against "it's too big!"

When I first installed it, I wasn't sure if they were any bigger or not, I could only tell if I could stand under them, I was expecting a huge huge ancient, but really the size isn't that bad.

Half of this game is about dragons, and dragons are big, I'm sorry to say.

[Fratricide]

*Prepares the tar and feathers for Hal and Frat*
;p

Wow... I have been placed on the Uber platform with Hal... Thanks.. I always knew my opinions were more bipedal worthy then they were Dragon kind.

If you really want to know my opinion on dragon sizes... then here goes...

*IF* Dragons were real, and in all the mythology I've read, Yes... Ancient dragons would be outrageously Huge, even larger then the touted "Real" ancient models that folks are modding their client with. However... Creatures of that size would really not fit in anywhere. Could not fit in any bipedal buildings of any sort.. nor should they try... They should stick to their lairs and relinquish themselves from the realm of the real world. Wait... I should stay off that tangent...

Alright... Ancient models as they are currently in game are still a tad bit large in my opinion, but I wouldn't want someone to have to make new models for all the dragon types just to reduce their size a tad bit further. I feel that having to double in Height is not necessary as a dragon grows older. Growing slightly larger in stature but increasing mental abilities is something that is a normal change in the cycle of a dragons existence. I know that an Ancient dragon is not the same as a Venerable dragon.

Dragons are the only Quadruped playable creature in the game... Because of other games lack of playable dragons, there tends to be a high number of dragons in this game. Dragons, and the players that play them, are extremely demanding... and when perhaps 40-50% of the main characters in the game are Dragons... I suppose they get a bit more attention... I'm sorry that the dev's felt it necessary to reduce the model size of the ancient dragon to a size that you think is too small... but please.. don't make me suffer with having to resource_override the current models so I don't have to have folks be obtrusive to my view...

Perhaps I should just over write the adult and ancient models with the Juvenile models.. that way I don't have to deal with the Adult models either.

[Pharcellus]

Having played both a Dragon and a biped (a HEALER, no less), I have found that the older Ancient models actually DID make it easier for me to do my job as a Healer. Even moreso than the adults. Even then, I had little trouble
navigating and clicking on things I need to click. Hell, I had more trouble clicking on things and seeing around myself as an adult/little ancient/big ancient than as a biped negotiating them.

Considering that one of the contributing reasons why the size nerf was done was due to a handful of people whining to the devs in IRC, when the people (both Dragons AND bipeds) actually, you know, TESTING them on Blight said otherwise, I don't see why the change was forced on everyone in the first place. We wanted to be seen as we were meant to be seen, especially if it wasn't broken to begin with. We shouldn't have to PATCH to be as we were, especially with the screwed-up cut throat (which, in the intervening year after ARoP release and before the sale to EI, had ZERO effort spent to correct, when it could have been EASILY rectified by returning them to normal size).

It was also no great secret that one of the devs whose primary responsibilities included Dragons and the ARoP had an axe to grind with Dragons and Dragon players, reportedly "enjoying" screwing with both.

[Kodey]

I voted yes, but I have reasons to say 'no'. First off, I want the original models back only to correct the neck weirdness, head largeness, etc.

Second, I don't care if we don't get the original SIZE back, but the model needs to be fixed. Numerous people are using the original size and models for dragon because of the neck/head issues for the most part.

If the devs changed the models back but kept the size, I think most people would be happy. I am using them to correct the model inconsistencies, and then using setscale to scale them back down. Dragons don't need to be all "I R SIZE OF BUILDING LOLZ". Devs could also make the Adult dragons slightly smaller in my opinion to make the jumps from adult to ancient more noticeable.

*shrug* As a healer I used mapped keys for groups so I never needed to click anything at all. I map keys as a healer for every game because screw trying to click on people, thats like, two extra steps before I get a heal off. First step, finding the person to heal, second step clicking. So I'm quite used to *F2, heal* *F5, heal* Dunno, though.

[Pharcellus]

*IF* Dragons were real, and in all the mythology I've read, Yes... Ancient dragons would be outrageously Huge, even larger then the touted "Real" ancient models that folks are modding their client with. However... Creatures of that size would really not fit in anywhere. Could not fit in any bipedal buildings of any sort.. nor should they try... They should stick to their lairs and relinquish themselves from the realm of the real world. Wait... I should stay off that tangent...

I actually roleplayed with others that I couldn't get into their huts and such, even though the game engine allowed me to do it, so I already accept and respect the concept of what "being really, really BIG!" implies, or should imply. The devs gave us a way to deal with it anyway; it is called "Khutit Form", so I would be even more fine with being severely restricted from going into a lot of biped buildings in quadruped form.

I feel that having to double in Height is not necessary as a dragon grows older. Growing slightly larger in stature but increasing mental abilities is something that is a normal change in the cycle of a dragons existence. I know that an Ancient dragon is not the same as a Venerable dragon.

It is necessary when that is the way Ancients have been portrayed in-game for nearly two years and players told repeatedly by the devs "<marketinghype>these are what player ancients will be like one day!!</marketinghype>".

Growing larger due to age is "natural" for Dragons, especially, like you said, in mythology, which is the whole basis for their existence anyway. They get REALLY big. They also get REALLY strong. In HZ, they don't really get either.

I'm sorry that the dev's felt it necessary to reduce the model size of the ancient dragon to a size that you think is too small... but please.. don't make me suffer with having to resource_override the current models so I don't have to have folks be obtrusive to my view...

Unless you have an Ancient Dragon strapped to your head, no one would be forcing you to suffer anything. Dragons are big; they WOULD obstruct to some degree; that's part of what makes them, you know, Dragons. You can choose to be around them, or not, and you can choose to group with them, or not. "I'm sorry, I would hunt with you, but your butt is too big for me to see anything" is a perfectly acceptable response to an invite, as far as I am concerned. Hell, I even was conscious of both tactics and strategy when group hunting, constantly repositioning myself just to be polite and try to make it easier for others to see, even when people weren't pissing and moaning over it.