What is so Wrong with Camping?

[Sigi]

Dibs means you get first rights to it. Calling dibs is telling others you want it first, before anyone else speaks up.

Ah, thank you awdz

[gopher65]

As Silverblaze and others keep stating (and no one responds to this legitimate head-scratcher) there is NOTHING preventing other groups from spending the time and making the gear and competing for the pull of the boss. How hard is it to get 3-5 people together with the right gear and abilities to do this?

No one has responded to that because no one has disagreed that this is possible. But personally, speaking from my own opinions on how things should be (not how things are), if someone were to do that to me I'd be ticked off. It's bad manners to go into an area where someone else is playing and steal their mob. First come, first serve is the rule I live by in these games.

So as I see it you are advocating the approach of "screw everyone else's fun, I'm here for me!" 14 year olds everywhere are rejoicing. And of course that attitude is what spawned the GIFT (NSFW). Geez people, try and share a bit. It's not like the world is overcrowded or anything. And this is a co-op game after all.

Now if it were a free range PvP game... that's a different story. You're suppose to be a jerk in those games. That's the whole point.

Anyway, as I see it this whole thing has nothing to do with camping. It's just a two groups who don't like each other silly-slapping each other around. Nothing to do with the rest of us. At this point I say ban them all and we can move on:P.

[Nayuaka]

Goriax: I thought I should point out that I never said players bowed out of camp spawns gracefully, just that they do. They get that it's a game mechanic and might not like it but they deal with it and just have the I'll get it next time attitude. Although there are exceptions of course, and there are louders ones who throw a fit... but not as many.

Frith-Rae: I didn't do anything to earn the communities ire. At least I do not think I did. I've just been seeing so much hate on the forums and I wanted to know why.

To Others: I want to say that camping IS effort. It's frikken BORING to wait there all the time and you can't just be completly AFK because you need to know when that mob spawns. To those that say it's no effort have you ever stood in one place waiting for a spawn for hours? Not fun.

[Creme]

For these unique high demand spawns players need to share. Unfortunately sharing is beyond the capability of some players.

I STRONGLY disagree that camping is a necessary part of MMORPGs. It's only a part until people design MMORPGs right.

Last I checked socialism/communism was not a requirement in MMORPGs. Moreover, I'd suggest that it's not so much *need* as *want* and an "I DESERVE". This reminds me of a conversation I had with a few co-workers with spouses that were/are teachers and the parents coming in and stating "My child DESERVES xxx" whether it be an "A" or a star or to win some award that another child got. You don't hand a student an "A" grade unless that student has WORKED to earn it. I recall a dragon with no biped alt insisting it needed a bloodbow to complete it's "collection". I also knew of another dragon that won a random on a master form that would not give the form to her spouse who had a biped able to scribe the form, again for it's "collection". That's not NEED. That's WANT.

Now I'm also going to throw out this horrible concept. Wanting something is not wrong. However, IMO wanting handouts or free rides and not being willing to put in some hard effort to get what you want; that's another story.

If this game were designed to require sharing, all silos, vaults, houses, etc. would all be open with no permissions able to be set.

If some players on whichever shard have this going for them, that's really really great for you and I'm not going to slam you for your willingness to share.

First is the belief that camping a mob entitles the waiting party to kill and loot the mob when it eventually spawns. You can choose to agree with this or not. If you choose to agree with it, then there is no "you can wait or compete too" -- you can't get to the front of the line if the line doesn't move. If you choose not to agree with it and ignore their claim, then it sounds a lot like kill-stealing.

I don't know of any system where you go into a "queue" in another MMORPG, although it is possible, I suppose, unless we're talking instances. If 2 players are out on the same satyr island, doesn't matter who got to the island first, or how long either player was out there, if a blue vex pops, odds are that if both players are in range of it, and aren't already tied up with another mob, if both are hunting blue vex fringes for comps, both players will try for that blue vex. The fact that playerA got to the island 2 hours prior to playerB is irrelevant. Killstealing is intentionally ignoring that another party has aggro'd a mob first and they proceed to attack, and continue to attack the mob, in the hopes of being awarded the loot window. Or at least that's my interpretation of killstealing. There might be some "official" definition somewhere.

Second is the effect of resource starvation. A kill on some of the contested mobs means that nobody has a chance at another kill for hours. For people whose available daily play time doesn't span two spawn windows, it means there isn't an opportunity for at least another day. This is fine if those who do make the kill respect people in that position and don't camp and kill at every opportunity. At least that way, those players with less contiguous free time aren't barred access to those mobs.

Let's say Sara is a mom, and has 3 kids. Sara is looking for a job, but can only work 15 hours a week and only a certain 15 hours. Sara might not be able to find a job that meets her schedule. Sara will most likely not earn as much money in a week as someone that works 40 hours, or 60 hours a week.

I would suggest that a player with a window of 3 hours of playtime every other day, could put in those 3 hours hoping the mob would spawn within that period and had a group there to help kill it. If a player wants it that badly, there is nothing stopping that player to put in the effort and do so. Odds are, the player would rather be leveling, or crafting, or sitting on the vault in Bristugo chatting and lagging up the town then putting in the time and effort.

This is very much a problem of disagreeing views and expectations. Some feel they're entitled to do whatever they want to as long as it's not against the rules. Others feel they're entitled to equal access to mobs and resources. Whether one side is right or not isn't relevant at the moment. What is relevant is that they both come to a compromise. Yes, some mobs are rare, no, you won't get to hunt them whenever you want to. No, it's not okay to keep sucking on the teat once you've had your fill.

A good number of the players complaining are ones that have already sucked the teat dry and filled up on the other 5. A few just want to spend their time doing whatever, come to see if a mob is up and then piggy back on that other group for a free random. I'd say even more aren't interested personally, they just like to jump on the "it's unfair bandwagon".

I look at camping in this game in the same way I look at Raiding in some other MMORPG's. In WoW, for example, people can spend 5 hour blocks of time slogging through various bosses in a dungeon, and continue to work their way through the bosses in the dungeon until they've completed it. This may take a whole week to start, but the kill time improves with repetition, and as you figure out each boss's weak points/counters.

I'm willing to bet that there are also many instances where players put in those 5 hours only to have the boss emerge as the victor. I've heard stories of guilds/groups that have spent weeks running the same dungeon only to concede to the BIG BAD GUY at the end. What do you do at that point? You either keep trying and figure out how to get better, more efficient, reconfigured, OR you pick up your marbles and go home.

There were also world dragons and bosses in WoW that would be camped by various guilds (because of the loot and the prestige). If you were on a pvp server, it would get more interesting because opposing factions could kill the guild members that were attacking the boss mob, cause them to wipe, and then take on the boss themselves.

I'm willing to bet that most guilds just tried to figure out counter strategies and kept going back trying to get the kill.

The main reason i provide this background, is the degredation of the gaming experience in that game due to the incessant whining of "casuals" who felt that they loot they would get and gear could not compare to those who raided or camped, and how unfair it was. If Group A puts forth a ton of preparation in time and materials, and Group B logs on for an hour or two every day, are they entitled to reap the same/equitable rewards? I side with the raiders on this one. If everything is equal, why put forth the effort and cost in materials/consumables/prep items?

I would expect that if the game's intention was that everyone should get everything and it should be a cake walk, every single item in the game would be available for some obscene price on the Vielo. I would suggest even the current event and the % chance on the "rares" in the presents goes to show that the intent is that you work hard and keep trying. Otherwise, every single large present would contain at least a single rare.

Effort should be rewarded. You should NOT get something for doing NOTHING. And complainers who think they should just look whiny and small.

Or go check out Sims Online. An MMORPG is really about killing stuff (well, I guess crafting too ). It's bloody (sans the red and bloody death and hacked limbs) and exciting and neck and neck. It shouldn't be about whining, it should be about doing, and accomplishing.

[LOVWYRM]

Now that I´ve got the point:
It sounds bad to me-*shakes head* I hardly believe it.

I sign gopher`s last post-had one or the other thing to add
-which I better do not
I´ll wait and see.

[gopher65]

Last I checked socialism/communism was not a requirement in MMORPGs.

I see this statement or varitations of it all the time. There needs to be an equivilent of Godwin's Law for this. I don't believe that one exists, so I'll make one:

Walker's Law:

"Each time an individual mentions that they don't enjoy being griefed by other players, the griefers will proceed to call that individual a communist."

Or something like that. Cause, like, not only is that not a childish statement to make, it's at least as helpful to the conversation as stating that someone is a Nazi. For the record I'd also like to say that just because someone doesn't like being griefed right and left by jerks and 14 year olds doesn't mean they want an easy button. It also doesn't mean they aren't willing to put out effort for an accomplishment.

The idea isn't for total equality (which is the central ideal of communism), but rather for equal opportunity to go out and achieve (which is egalitarianism IIRC).

In other words, just because I'm polite ingame (but not out here heh) and I don't go and spawn steal from others (cause I'm not a jerk ingame) doesn't mean I deserve to be shut out of some of the content in the game. Errr... though I don't like hunting boss mobs, so none of this matters to me personally. But it does for some other people with similar playstyles to mine, which is why I mention it. Anyway, I refuse to be forced to stoop to the level of the jerks just to be allowed the chance to participate.

[LaughingOtter]

The idea isn't for total equality (which is the central ideal of communism)

No, the central idea of Communism is that the workers should control the means of production, thus preventing the accumulation of personal wealth via private enterprise. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is a recognition of inequality between individuals, in fact.

BTW, I'm talking about Communism, not Marxism/Leninism.

OK, to the topic...

I don't think there's anything wrong with camping per se; it is indeed part of MMOs in general. What I'd look at is why and how someone is camping a mob. If it's to gain a specific drop, progress a quest, or something like that, fine. The key is that the camper obtains what is desired and moves on, opening up the spawn for other players.

Camping a spawn in order to deny other players access to that mob and thus monopolize the drops is another matter. Even assuming that no explicitly prohibited behavior is involved, to me that violates the TOS policy on intentionally interfering with another player's game play. It's a foul for unsportsmanlike conduct, if nothing else.

Now, if someone is deliberatly monopolizing a spawn and doing so via the use of questionable tactics, then the issue is no longer simply camping...

[Creme]

Walker's Law:

"Each time an individual mentions that they don't enjoy being griefed by other players, the griefers will proceed to call that individual a communist."

Might want to re-read what I typed. I didn't call anyone a communist or a socialist, I was making an association that MMORPGs are not based on a communist or socialist philosophy.

Or something like that. Cause, like, not only is that not a childish statement to make, it's at least as helpful to the conversation as stating that someone is a Nazi. For the record I'd also like to say that just because someone doesn't like being griefed right and left by jerks and 14 year olds doesn't mean they want an easy button. It also doesn't mean they aren't willing to put out effort for an accomplishment.

See above as I wasn't name calling anyone. I'm sure 10 days from now, I will be accused of calling people communists AND Nazi's, simply because people seem to have great difficulty in actually READING what's typed, rather than twisting it based on their PERSPECTIVE of what's intended. Not the case here, so let's please get that straight right now.

The idea isn't for total equality (which is the central ideal of communism), but rather for equal opportunity to go out and achieve (which is egalitarianism IIRC).

That might be a more appropriate term. Every one has an equal opportunity to camp. TY for providing it .

In other words, just because I'm polite ingame (but not out here heh) and I don't go and spawn steal from others (cause I'm not a jerk ingame) doesn't mean I deserve to be shut out of some of the content in the game.

I agree 100% and am glad you don't go steal spawn. Killstealing is not a good behavior and I would LOVE to see a change in mob behavior so that the first group to "tag" a mob, keeps it and the loot, regardless of who winds up doing whatever damage calculations award the loot. (Unless that group wipes, of course). I believe KSing is impossible in LOTR, no matter who kills/damages the mob, the game tracks who tagged it and that player gets 100% kill/loot credit for it.

Back to the topic, sorry.

[Oakleif]

I would LOVE to see a change in mob behavior so that the first group to "tag" a mob, keeps it and the loot, regardless of who winds up doing whatever damage calculations award the loot. (Unless that group wipes, of course). I believe KSing is impossible in LOTR, no matter who kills/damages the mob, the game tracks who tagged it and that player gets 100% kill/loot credit for it.

Its been a couple months since I logged in to LOTRO, so I may not be 100% accurate here. Peaches may be able to correct me if I'm wrong, as I think she's still playing there.

Anyway, my recollection is that when someone first damages a mob (note that that is NOT when the mob first agros OR attacks a player OR when a non-damaging debuff is applied to the mob) then the mob is marked as specific to that character's group. Its name and health bar get "greyed out" for all other groups and individuals, so that everyone knows that its been "claimed". Those others can still assist in the kill, but they get no xp or loot from it.

If the "claiming" group totally wipes out, the mob is "freed" and the next character to damage it "claims" it for their group.

I'm not positive how raid group functionality works for this specific consideration, but we don't have raid groups in Horizons, so that's kinda moot.

[Oakleif]

Now, on the original topic, I personally swore off intentional camping eight years ago, or so, after doing a 16 hour camp in Everquest for a druid book (I forget the name of it, perhaps Testament of V-something?) where the mob was on a 4 hour cycle, and I got there as the 4th in line just after the mob went down. That was the most boring time I've ever spent in game, and I had to be in game sitting on my thumbs doing nothing those sixteen hours in order to keep my place in line.

I promised myself that that was the last time I'd ever wait in line like that. Have I hunted for other stuff that relied on a mob on a long timer? Yes, but not if I got there and there was a line. I'd rather spend the time hunting and make the money to buy the item instead.

Does that mean I abhor those who do camp? Only if they monopolize the spawn preventing anyone outside their guild from vying for the items dropped. Is that what the Chuck Norris guild is doing with Valkor on Chaos? I don't know...

[Digita]

Yes, in LOTRO, tagged equals damage. If you pull with a damaging attack/spell (however minute, such as a DoT), the mob becomes grey (no exp/no loot) to any others that attack it. If one group pulls FIRST with a mark/debuff (non-damaging), and the other group pulls with a damaging attack/spell, the 2nd group gets it. In some other MMO's, tag = yours. And in yet others, EVERY encounter is instanced, whether you're inside or outside (such as DDO).

In the absence of this in this game, it's a basic free for all. From what i understand, it's the individual/group that does the MOST damage that gets the kill credit and chance to loot. Since that is the case, someone who spends 8 hours camping a mob, and another group comes up just as the mob spawns, can still attack the mob and try and out-damage. So, how can any actual monopolize a boss?

Certainly it doesn't prevent people in WoW from fighting over (sometimes with devious/ruthless methods on pvp servers) the same world boss when it spawns. Nor does this game prevent people from fighting over it.

Basically what it boils down to is that people don't want to compete because there is no GUARANTEE they will get the kill/loot credit. They'd rather NOT have any competition with other groups.

Just like in any other game with world bosses, it takes team effort, coordination, and split-second ability to improvise if something doesn't go as planned to down such a boss. This is intentionally designed to be HARDER than a normal mob. A united guild with members used to working together has a greater chance to do this than some cobbled-together group.

However, if the cobbled-together group didn't have ANY competition at the mob, there's a 50-50 chance they'd wipe versus kill/loot, which in their eyes is FAIRER than competing with another group trying to do the same, who has proven they're skilled at it already.

It's just an attitude of I WANT it so you go away so i can get it without trying to compete with you over it. With that kind of attitude, your play style is better suited to an MMO that is completely instanced. Try DDO or Guild Wars. You'll always get the loot if you manage to kill the mob.

[tjl]

Is that what the Chuck Norris guild is doing with Valkor on Chaos? I don't know...

from everything I have personally seen, this is not the case. what creme is saying is anyone can go out there and sit next to kimchee or whomever is watching, equally. and they can, there is nothing stopping them.

in fact the week i rejoined, I went out there to see if valkor was still spawning. much to my surprise, he insta-killed me near the base of the mountain. (i had no idea they made him patrol now...)

so we got some hunters out there and killed him as quickly as we could, seeing as the competition was equally trying arrive on location to get him engaged.

no, its not the same as it was before... its not as casual, and its not as egalitarian as it was...

but I found it to be just as fun.

the spawn time is variable, and they patrol. its still anyones game, if they try.

[Silverblaze]

glad this is a rant...

I'm getting mighty irritated with people saying Chuck Norris America cheats.

I'm not in their guild, I dont hunt wit hthem often, sometimes I level with them, I've killed every boss in the game with them or part of them at least once. They have NOT used any questionable tactics. I can guarantee this. Simply because after EII I'm scared to death of being banned. If they did something like that, I can guarantee i'd still talk to them. but I wouldnt hunt with them.

Seriously, who wants banned by association with REAL cheaters? Nobody, I'm no idiot.

I can tell you for absolute certainty, when camping or hunting they dont cheat.

There have been accusations of mithril coin exploits...tehre were only two ways to cheat to make money I knew(heard of) of. I knew who did the mtoo for the most part.

One was selling a spell to a pb for 1s WAY back in the day.
The other also no longer available from my understanding worked similarly, though I have no details.

I'll be honest, I wish they did exploit coin. (maybe I could beg for some then ) I wish I had when I had the chance, but thats not how I play. I do know no-one or very few got penalized for it. So why not? Cuz I still think its wrong.

They were also once accused of a speed exploit... that made me laugh hard enough I couldnt breathe...far as I know, it isnt possible. Unless bothering with ranger is an exploit...cuz they're fast....so all you ranger fans beware...you may indeed be commiting a hideous atrocity. slow down!

I cant recall anything else to add atm, but as they've always asked and I surely would want were th accusations thrown at me...if ya wanna press charges...cops need proof, evidence, even a witness. If you dont have any of that...please stop slinging mud ( or worse). Its childish, unbecoming, and quite frankly, while we're ranting...kinda sad.

Now, some of this may be from a temper charged typing spree, I may regret some of these words, but they're pretty true, so...I dunno.

Maybe dont point fingers cuz it makes others wonder what you're doing?

(not religious or trying to offend anyone whom is religious) judge not lest ye be judged yourself? in this case devs are the higher power...if they needed to monitor things, I bet they could with their computer magic( I really dont know how, I suck at anything more complicated than scan disk when it comes to computers)

Just stop with the assuming since someone succeeds and others dont that it must be cheating, or questionable, or lying, or sucking up to devs, or bribing people or whatever. its not cool.

[gopher65]

In my normal style I will now respond to every off topic comment in this thread while ignoring everything that was on topic.

________________________________________


Speed exploit? Heh, why bother? With the full range of buffs and bonuses (not including the ones that don't work, like the blighted items speed buffs) I can hit 225 speed on my Ranger. And the ranger speed increase buffs are masterable, so anyone can get them (which is silly. Those should be class unique, but I digress, again:P). I seem to remember seeing a screenie of someone who managed a bit more speed than 225, but I don't remember how they did it. But past ~130 or so I am going faster than my computer can load stuff, so it becomes hard to control.

After running around as a speedy ranger it sure is hard to go back to that base 50 speed with only one short speed burst. *hugs his little Dragon*

________________________________________


What else... oh LO's post. I should have said "which is an ideal central to communism". That doesn't make your criticism less valid, but it is closer to what I meant to say:P. I have this weird ... habit I guess it is... where I type sentences with words in the wrong order, and it sometimes subtly changes the meaning. But errr, yeah, I suppose I meant some kind of Leninist philosophy and not pure communism. When I think of communism I either think of Leninism (or a Stalinist perversion of it) or Maoism.

________________________________________


And.... *scrolls up* I don't think anyone will be banned for association with accused cheaters Silverblaze. I've had Kimchee make me items, and I've talked with hierm (my new word meaning her/him - pronounced "air-mm"). This isn't WoW or EIhorizonsI where you get banned for breathing in the wrong way. So we should all be able to talk with whom we chose (whom? who? *kicks that word*).

________________________________________


*scrolls up* I kinda liked the LOTRO system. That way if I saw someone in trouble I could help kill their mob without being accused of kill stealing. It was great I thought. I felt the mechanics of that game were well put together, even if it ended up being a bit dull and uninspired for my taste. I loved visiting Bag End. I almost want to resub just so I can run around and look at all the cool places. That entire game's landscape has a hand carved feel to it and that is sweet.

________________________________________


*scrolls up again* Spawn Stealing isn't the same as Kill Stealing. They are related, but not identical. I suppose I'd classify KSing as a subcategory of SS.

a) KS is when someone else pulls a mob and you rush in and take it from them (I think).
b) SS is when someone is in an area doing their thing, be it hunting or farming or mass murdering resource nodes (You Klingon Bas***ds!) or camping, and another person or group runs in and overruns the spawn.

In the case of camping this would take the form of a group who arrives after a camp is underway, and instead of getting in line or attempting to join the first group they instead attempt to cut the queue and steal the mob. Budding in line is wrong. Just ask the British Parliamentarians. Am I the only person who had basic manners taught to them as a child? I mean, I ignore my manners, but I still have them locked away somewhere!

Everyone certainly has an equal opportunity to camp, provided that campers eventually leave an area and don't perma-camp it. If they never leave, then the second group to arrive are spawn stealing griefers. Of course the first group are jerks for perma-camping... so ... ... yeah... I guess... I guess there is only one solution.

*puts on goggles*
*pulls out a flame thrower*
MUWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *gasps for breath* HAHAHAHAHAHA!

[LOVWYRM]

A united guild with members used to working together has a greater chance to do this than some cobbled-together group..

On Unity, all the players from the boss mob channel were much experienced in working together and blend well with each other. Players from all over the shard.
Different guilds, languages (not easy but we managed it^^), countries .
It worked, because we did it together 100 times with different crews and different leaders,and tought the unexperienced ones the do`s and don`ts.
No camping, but
"Lov it`s your turn today to search for (whomsoever)"
(in case there was none of us searching anyway)
Sounds good?
Yes, it was

[Creme]

If they never leave, then the second group to arrive are spawn stealing griefers.

I think it's been established that there's no lines in HZ and as far as I'm concerned, no calling "dibs" either. As such, I don't think "spawn stealing griefers" are a factor in this thread.

[LOVWYRM]

gopher65-sometimes you`re frightening me a bit ^^^^

[awdz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gopher65
If they never leave, then the second group to arrive are spawn stealing griefers.

I think it's been established that there's no lines in HZ and as far as I'm concerned, no calling "dibs" either. As such, I don't think "spawn stealing griefers" are a factor in this thread.

Evidently there is a difference of opinion, thus the conflict. When you have been working diligently for something and another disrupts that, it is natural to get upset. When others will not share what you believe to be meant for sharing, it is natural to feel angry. If folks do not learn to accept other perspectives/playstyles, how can the inevitable conflict over limited spawn be resolved?

[Kala]

I'm getting mighty irritated with people saying Chuck Norris America cheats.

I'm not in their guild, I dont hunt wit hthem often, sometimes I level with them, I've killed every boss in the game with them or part of them at least once. They have NOT used any questionable tactics. I can guarantee this.

I hunt with them even less than Silverblaze does. I do talk with them frequently though. I've also been out on a few hunts with them...mostly to view for myself the most interesting way others react to them. It's like pots and kettles.

Oooh, wait. I just admitted I *gasp* talk with them. There goes my reputation. ;p

[gopher65]

WANNA KNOW WHAT REALLY ANNOYS ME ABOUT THAT GUILD? THEIR GUILD NAME IS IN ALL CAPS. WHEN PEOPLE TYPE IN ALL CAPS IT MAKES ME TWITCH SOMETHING FIERCE. ISN'T THIS ANNOYING? I THINK IT IS ANNOYING.

But they are far from the only people I've come across who doesn't understand THAT YOU SHOULDN'T DO THIS all the time. Every now and then I see someone on a forum who doesn't know what the freaking capslock key is for too. *shudders*

And of course, the OCCness of their guild name. Whatever happened to "you're not allowed to use trademarked or famous personages or the name of any current or former member of the TulgAE/Vi team"? But again, not the only people who do that.

Come to think of it... You know what? There are a lot of people that annoy me. Everyone slap yourself once for me. Kthanksmmmmbuhbye.