What is so Wrong with Camping?

[Nayuaka]

What is so bad about camping? I really do not get it. Horizons in the only game I've played where there are server wide hate wars over it. People who would otherwise be friends fighting over a few pixels and "rights" to a mob.I find nothing wrong with camping. Not one thing. It's an element in many MMO's and not just here. It's done EVERYWHERE. It's just that here people seem to equate it to one of the most horrible things in the universe.

For an example I'll use EQ2 which I also play. There are entire mobs there that are called contested where entire guilds camp for the right to fight them. Many guilds or raid groups or normal groups will wait in that one spot waiting for this mob to pop and then it's a mad rush to see who can hit it and gain the encounter. The ones that don't get it set up shop and wait till the next time where they hope they can. There's a lot more people in that game then this one too, and there isn't nearly as many bad feelings.

So I ask again. Why is it such a problem here. Why does it start huge fights and cause backstabbing in the population. Almost everyone has camped SOMETHING in their lifetime after all. To quote a good friend, no one is stopping you from going out and camping the same mob as the others are if you want it.

Now I will also say I'm not trying to start a fight. I just do not understand. It's just a game afterall. I also meant for this to be a discussion but I realize it was kinda ranty so that's why it's here instead of general.

Edit: I will also state that these are my personal views and may not reflect the views of my guildmates.

[Pharcellus]

Dunno. I certainly don't have a problem with it myself. Not like there is much to camp in HZ anyway. Valkor, Reklar, SoG, Fafnir, etc; can't hardly get a group to go after ONE of them nowadays. What are people camping nowadays that other people are complaining about?

Now, bottom-feeding on / farming quest mobs when there are low-levels who need them for their quests is kinda unfair, and I will graciously leave them be (or even offer to help, if such is desired) until after everyone has their fill.

[awdz]

Seems to me camping is calling dibs on a mob. Not typically a big deal unless it is constant and endless. However, I think in Horizons it has a slightly different flavor, and I will try to explain my perspective.

To me, this game fosters cooperation between players rather than adversarial relationships seen in games with PvP; generally, quests and such are set up that all can do them at no cost to other players but benefits gained from working together. To me, camping gives the impression that you are telling these folks used to working cooperatively that they are being shut out. You may not intend that, but it is the message that comes across to some of us with the 'dibs' approach. It is an adversarial kind of thing to folks who do not want adversarial player relationships.

Does that make sense for why folks here get up in arms about it where in other games they do not so much?

[Pharcellus]

Well, I don't generally honor "dibs" on fodder, except in the case of quests, like I said. Someone comes into a general spawn farming, calling dibs on some area of the spawn, I just ignore them and do whatever. If I end up in his part of the spawn, oh well.

Now that doesn't mean I go out of my way to invade someone's space. I will happily share spawns with people. For big named bosses, I will join groups where I think I will be treated fairly. I ALWAYS treat groups I lead fairly.

I guess I just don't encounter people with that "MY spawn! MINE MINE MINE!!" mentality very often, so I don't "get it".

[Nayuaka]

Awdz: I just thought I should point out that most servers on EQ2 do not have PvP and have the same questing atmosphere as Horizons. In fact more so as there are over 3000 quests in EQ2 and at least a few quests go to mobs that are continually camped. In that game there's more of a whoever got it got it and we'll get it next time attitude then in Horizons where's it's more of a how dare they attack that mob I wanted and camp it for hours when I want it attitude.

As for the calling dibs...well that's the exact attitude I was talking about. No one should be able to call "dibs" on a mob or perceive that someone has dibs on a mob. Games are equal oppurtunity and you can always camp next to the campers or say run in and hit the mobs before they do. There are always way to gain the encounter before them.

Camping also doesn't need to shut many out. It seems most are more content to bother the campers and call them horrible and then say they were shut out or felt shut out rather then tell the campers and politly ask if they can join said group so that they can finish the quest. In my experience in both games if I just ask the camping group if I can join for a credit kill they are happy to let me. Although, I do realize that this isn't the same in all cases.

Pharcellus: I agree with your second point too. Camping spawns newbies need for quests and wiping them out without giving new players a chance is not fair and is in fact detrimental to the game. But in my post I was more refering to camping big Epicy type mobs. I want no one to think that I think taking content away from players new to the game is okay. A tiny little newbie of level 13 has no chance against a multi rating giant of max level schools.

[Silverblaze]

I understand this game is different than others.

However, when someone doesnt wanna be friendly..wants to spend much time camping, its their prerogative. Just because one odesnt like it doesnt make it wrong.

this is going to be rude so I apologize....good thing its in rants.

Theres an old saying..."if you wanna be the man, you gotta beat the man"

simply put, fight, compete, win or lose...if not, you're not really playing the game...your posting about it, you're complaining about it.

Like sports annoucners that are washed up old pros...they aint got the game anymore. They got too old, or they never were good.

People who post more than play ( that have the option of playing mind you) remind me of those.

heres my advice. if you want to do something in this game and cant be firendly about it. You better be good. You better be the top of the food chain and you better put in effort and time. this ladies nad gentlemen = rewards.

Effort vs reward...every game, every facet of real life is based on this.

its not a foreign concept, its universal truth.

well I spose there are other ways, but none that are respectable.

Also, method.... you do not have to cheat to camp or acheive these things.

I wont expand upon tactics or timers or gear used etc. But its all legal that I do.

If camping offends you fine, don do it, but certainly do not whine because others do it.

I will admit I used to hate it. However its so wide spread in MMO's such is life. One has to accept it, work to get it fixed, or ignore it. I accept it and began to do it, got used to it, got good at it. Got what I wanted/needed, moved on because I lack the means to continue with ease. I choose to spend my time in other ways on other endeavors. simple really.

I suppose you can just complain and hope it fixes itself or wait for campers to lose their edge...quit or what have you, but why do that when the alternative is much sweeter.

[awdz]

I have not played other mmorpg's so I'll take your word for what's out there. Perhaps with EQ2 the ones who are most competitive/likely to camp in a way perceived as obnoxious migrate to the PvP server, I have no clue.

It seems most are more content to bother the campers and call them horrible and then say they were shut out or felt shut out rather then tell the campers and politly ask if they can join said group so that they can finish the quest.

I am aware of past friction between two groups on Order that used to hunt Valkor pretty constantly. They had two very different ideas on how the loot should be divvied, and therefore would not hunt together. Now I don't know if the ability to kill steal was removed from this game; it used to be mobs would go for whomever did the most damage to them, I think. You can see how having those two groups camping could lead to arguments... those who tried to mediate between them got burnt out/fed up. Eventually one side got done or gave up, I think, because it has not been an issue on Order for a long time. Anyway, there may be reasons/experiences from other players behind why grouping with those camping is not a good option.

Please consider that because some do not wish to intrude on a group in a hunting area (call it a culture/mindset thing), they thus give the ones there already 'dibs', and may be frustrated when there does not seem to be a break for others to hunt the area without grouping with those there first. I understand some consider this "Duh, that's how the game works, put in the time!" I would hope those who have been waiting in the shadows rather than openly camping on top of the spawn spot would try communication to work out the issue; presumably some have and were unsuccessful at it.

It also becomes particularly frustrating when you are limited to only a couple of hours in which to try to hunt - not everyone can sit at the computer just waiting for spawn all day. Not everyone can 'put in the time' required to camp the mob as a strategy. When it comes to splitting loot, I have seen some of those who put in extra camping/hunting time insist they get dibs because they've been at it longer, and when they are the ones who grab the loot off the corpse (practice makes perfect, eh?) no one can force them to consider differently. Those who do not think that way likely do not think to ask about it beforehand, and may be left with a very sour taste about the others. Sometimes, it's just nice to hunt big things with those you know agree with (without having to worry about negotiations).

In my experience in both games if I just ask the camping group if I can join for a credit kill they are happy to let me.

I guess where there is limited/specialized loot - and not everyone finishing a quest equally - camping becomes much more of an issue. It's one thing to have to get a large uber group to participate in 20 kills to get the reward if everyone does likewise, another thing to get a large uber group to participate in 20 kills and maybe have only one or two get the quest reward that everyone wants. In my opinion, that latter case leads to competition and strife.

*shrugs* Anyway, camping mobs is not my style, I don't have the attention span for it. I was just trying to share a perspective that might help you understand why others may get so mad about it.
--Not everyone is as nice as you sound about sharing hunts/loot.
--Not everyone is so bold as to "interrupt" someone else in a hunting area.
--Not everyone has the time to put in to camping.
--Past experience with specific other players may preclude willingness to try working with them again.

Maybe it is different in other mmorpg's. For quests like ARoP, folks in Horizons pull together to help the questors through it really well. It seems that only the mobs with the ultra rare loot/comps have drawn campers and thus the contention with camping. I think this is because it fosters competition in a game where many folks enjoy the game because overall it fosters cooperation instead.

Sheesh, enough of my babbling, thanks for your patience!!

[Silverblaze]

A very well worded and thought out post.

I agree that people whom do have time are often competitive.

However, I think it goes without saying that some people fall between the cracks. This can be good or bad.

I fell through in the respect that if I am moderately respectful to most people and become knowledgeable fo the hunts taking place, by biding my time I'll get what I desire.

Some folks lack the patience and get angry.

By the same token, I do hope those who do not camp, can appreciate the determination and fortitude/patiecne of an individual whom can and does camp. ( rather than thinking these people are just trying to mess with everyone else. or thinking a person whom camps must have nothing but time on their hands and is therefore a loser. I have at times in the past felt that way, now in some cases it may be true, while in others such remarks and thoughts stem from envy and avarice)

Essentially, if campers dont fault you for not camping why fault them for it?

I guess that brings us back to the title...whats wrong with camping no?

in the end its play style. Truth be told, if there were say 2-5 more camp worthy mobs or a once a week timer (or some such) on some bosses like in EQ classic ( the first one) it would be less of an issue.

This thread however isnt here to solve the issue of camping, merely to rant that it is a playstyle and therefore not a porblem, more a fact of e-life.

Thats not to say I dont expect people to disagree.

I guess what Id like to see, is less accusations and envy, more respect and communication. ( its not a perfect world I know, but I can dream)

[Vengeance]

Nothing is wrong with camping. MMO's wouldn't be MMO's without camping in my opinion.

I no longer see why people fault them for camping. Especially in HZ where the epic gear just isn't epic. I guess some of the crap is a status symbol. Hell most of the time i don't even use my bloodsword anymore. My fine mithral battle axe does more damage with the flame tech against most critters. These people are devoted to go out and frag these mobs. I am sure if another group of 5 or 6 people where willing to set and wait and spend hours looking of these mobs to pop they would be able to claim some kills. I am also not suprised they don't allow others outside of their core group to hunt with them the way they have been treated by the community.

Honestly if it is such a **** problem the Devs should place Valk, Rek, and Sog on he exact same timer and have all 3 spawn at the exact same time every day. It would absoluty strip away the need to camp. Eveyone would know where to be and when. It would also force people to choose which mob they are gonna go hit. I would expect not to many would be at Rek cause his pieces suck, in my opinion.

WAY OFF TOPIC: Honestly, the only thing I am jealous about when it comes to the group everyone refers to is the name of their guild. I wish Chuck was my father. As an infantry paratrooper from the 82nd, I have tried to live the Chuck life; but alas Only he could make the dinosaurs go extinct.

[LOVWYRM]

I think, I do not understand the prob at all.
wth is "camping"?
I should know about that, so I can brief my friends and mates, when they return.

In good old Unity days, someone was searching for the big ones..
Then he/she anounced it in the Sog&Co-channel asking for forming a group.
Then we did it-one or all the others-
everyone could join-this time or the next time.
No trouble, no quarreling-never, as far as I remember.
Pls mates from Unity speak up if I`m wrong.

So what is the prob here??

(and it`s only a rumor, that the great HAG soloed Valkor, because there was noone to group^^at least I was there-to witness it^^)

[Sigi]

I think camping means sitting somewhere till the mob arrives and saying it is yours because you were there first.

For the Unity situation, as fas as I know Lov you are right

Other question
what is dibs? or call it dibs?

[Tcei]

When it comes to camping I have no issues with it. In Hz there's generaly not an issue with there being so many groups in one area that folks have to call certain spawns as part of their camps (any eqers remember bandit camps 1,2,3 in Paludal?), in which case it was an unwritten rule that you leave those spawns alone. Here theres normaly enough spawns in an area for the few there to easily hunt them.

The main issues to me ,and these seem to be relativly rare, are the higher lvls in a low level area killing everything off or hunting and killing named/quest mobs just for the heck of it. This isnt an issue unless theres a lower lvl character that needs said mob for a quest. IMHO the right thing to do is A. back off or go somewhere else and let the lower level kill what they need, or B. offer to help/group with the lower level. I do this when farming for low level comps.

The other issue that I've heard about (Im not high enough in lvl to actualy be bothered with it), is a single person or persons seeming to perma camp a certain mob or spawn. I've heard of at least one person on Order who does this, said person will go so far as to greif anyone that tries to kill "his/her" nameds. This is perhaps more frustrating than the other issue as it can be virtualy impossible to get a needed mob.
I had this issue in EQ for my bard's epic, and there was a monk who perma camped a very needed mob to the point that I and several other bards were never able to complete the quest.

[Goriax]

There's nothing wrong with camping unless it's causing one person or group to monopolize a mob to the extent that others who need that mob are unable to get it. Then it's VERY wrong.

I didn't get high enough in EQ2 to see how camping worked there but I did in EQ1 and in EQ1 it often got VERY ugly with arguments frequently escalating to training or bringing in GMs. I find it hard to believe that someone who has waited online for a week for an ultra rare spawn that they NEED is going to bow out gracefully if someone else, who has been killing that mob every time it spawns, snags it instead.

Generally, the rareness and importance of the spawn were in direct proportion to the ugliness of the camping. Sometimes server communities could establish some sort of queue. You basically took a number and when your turn was up you could take the mob uncontested. Unfortunately that was rare.

For these unique high demand spawns players need to share. Unfortunately sharing is beyond the capability of some players.

I STRONGLY disagree that camping is a necessary part of MMORPGs. It's only a part until people design MMORPGs right.

[gopher65]

I STRONGLY disagree that camping is a necessary part of MMORPGs. It's only a part until people design MMORPGs right.

Yupyup. I don't think camping is wrong, but I do think it is boring. Darned boring in fact. Any game that is designed specifically to force the players into boring gameplay shouldn't be played. That makes sense, right?

How many PS2's sold? 120 million? Let's pretend that only one person plays each PS2. That isn't true, but let's pretend. That would be 120 million people. How many total MMOG accounts? Less than 12 million. Let us go out on a limb and say that, even though we know this isn't true, each person who plays MMOGs only has 1 account. That would be 12 million people (well, more like 1 million players and 11 million Chinese gold farmers to cater to them heh. But lets ignore that).

So if there are at least 120 million gamers, and only 12 million MMOG players... that says to me that less than 10% of the total population of gamers are stupid and OCD enough to engage in the boring mindsucking grind that most MMOGs offer. That should tell game companies something, shouldn't it? Hurrah for camping, grinding, and farming, the staples of all MMOG gameplay!

[Steelclaw]

*checks to make sure this is in rants*

Camping itself isn't such a big deal. It's the effects of it. Two of them in particular.

First is the belief that camping a mob entitles the waiting party to kill and loot the mob when it eventually spawns. You can choose to agree with this or not. If you choose to agree with it, then there is no "you can wait or compete too" -- you can't get to the front of the line if the line doesn't move. If you choose not to agree with it and ignore their claim, then it sounds a lot like kill-stealing.

Second is the effect of resource starvation. A kill on some of the contested mobs means that nobody has a chance at another kill for hours. For people whose available daily play time doesn't span two spawn windows, it means there isn't an opportunity for at least another day. This is fine if those who do make the kill respect people in that position and don't camp and kill at every opportunity. At least that way, those players with less contiguous free time aren't barred access to those mobs.



This is very much a problem of disagreeing views and expectations. Some feel they're entitled to do whatever they want to as long as it's not against the rules. Others feel they're entitled to equal access to mobs and resources. Whether one side is right or not isn't relevant at the moment. What is relevant is that they both come to a compromise. Yes, some mobs are rare, no, you won't get to hunt them whenever you want to. No, it's not okay to keep sucking on the teat once you've had your fill.

If nobody wants to budge and this bickering amongst a small potion of the Horizons community continues, I would not be surprised if the toys get taken away, in which case we all lose.

[Digita]

I look at camping in this game in the same way I look at Raiding in some other MMORPG's. In WoW, for example, people can spend 5 hour blocks of time slogging through various bosses in a dungeon, and continue to work their way through the bosses in the dungeon until they've completed it. This may take a whole week to start, but the kill time improves with repetition, and as you figure out each boss's weak points/counters.



There were also world dragons and bosses in WoW that would be camped by various guilds (because of the loot and the prestige). If you were on a pvp server, it would get more interesting because opposing factions could kill the guild members that were attacking the boss mob, cause them to wipe, and then take on the boss themselves.

The main reason i provide this background, is the degredation of the gaming experience in that game due to the incessant whining of "casuals" who felt that the loot they would get and gear could not compare to those who raided or camped, and how unfair it was. If Group A puts forth a ton of preparation in time and materials, and Group B logs on for an hour or two every day, are they entitled to reap the same/equitable rewards? I side with the raiders on this one. If everything is equal, why put forth the effort and cost in materials/consumables/prep items?

Also, a lot of work and thought went into developing those dungeons and world bosses. The world bosses were a way for guilds and a coalition of people without the blocks of time available all week long to raid to still WORK and get something worthwhile.

If someone in this game (a guild or a coalition of various guilds' members) spends hours with hardware and manpower dedicated to playing lookout for hours, studying the boss's skills and looking for any weakness/counter, and then coordinates a kill, when there is no one else out there competing with them, why is this unfair? How is that "hogging?" Unlike instances (which are unique to each group/guild), world bosses are up for grabs? There is nothing preventing other guilds or a coalition of members from various guilds from putting forth the same effort in time and hardware and attempting to tag the same target.

What I don't agree with are people who put forth NO time and effort, run up at the very end of the fight, and say "invite me quick so i can roll on the loot", or who don't show up at all, but complain about the people who do spend the time and effort camping, but refuse to put forth the same effort, or even attempt to compete with the first group.

In real life, this is like a clockwatcher who just comes into work for his paycheck, works not one minute beyond the eight hours complaining about getting a low raise or a poor bonus compared to someone who puts forth much more effort and hours.

Effort should be rewarded. You should NOT get something for doing NOTHING. And complainers who think they should just look whiny and small.

edit: When i joined WoW at start, there were 1.4 million users. Now there are 9 million. I can really see how much raiding/camping turns people OFF. The devs there obviously made a lousy MMO judging by the numbers.

[Frith-Rae]

I for one am wondering what exactly were his "camping" situations that got other people peeved at him..

For it seems that while noone really has a problem with Camping in and of itself - it is more of a problem, as a previous poster said - with the attitude/results of said camping.

If you're camping a mob or a group of mobs and are polite to others who need to farm/camp said area - probably noone would say naught against you. Or if they did you would have examples where they are wrong..(*i.e. he won't let me kill XYZ - "yes I woulde you didn't tell me you needed it...player abc just did after he let me know he needed it) or whatever.

If you're a higher lever camping lower level mobs en masse for whatever reason - stepping aside when player of the mobs levels come to get them for a quest, or at least staying away/otherside of the zone so they can get what they need to get - I doubt anyone would really bother to complain.

It seems the only complaining and mudslinging and backstabbing that occurs is when 1-the camper is rude and obnoxious about what their doing, "forbidding" anyone else from taking "their mob" or "their mobs" or 2-when the person coming up to kill something being camped automatically assumes their 'not included' and just gets mad before even asking or 3-when either side starts claiming anything as "theirs" and how they have "rights" (of course that's gonna lead to harsh words).

Its a game. Its pixels in the game. You own nothing. You have no right to claim anything. Either the camped or the campee . If the camper makes way for new people, no issues. If the person playing knwos that the other player is camping and just stays away from them - no issue (or at the very least let's them know they need to kill things too).

There's room for everyone. Even on single spawn mobs.

Its only a problem when one or the other side starts being rude.

Which is why I say to the OP "What did you do that was considered rude??"

((FYI for my own personal view, if I run up to an area and there is someone already there, I allow them first rights as they were there first. I expect the same. But I don't get teed off if someone doesn't follow this "take turns" attitude. I just remember them to ignore later...))

[awdz]

Other question
what is dibs? or call it dibs?

Dibs means you get first rights to it. Calling dibs is telling others you want it first, before anyone else speaks up.

[gopher65]

Since when is camping "effort"? It involves sitting around for hours doing nothing. That doesn't sound like effort to me. If that's effort, then me going partially AFK to read the forums while standing in the Western Deadlands is effort too. Man I'm uber for putting in all of this Effort. Effort with a capital E. All this being AFK while keeping one eye on my screen is burning some serious calories and making me hungry, I'll be right back... mmmmm foooooood.

A raid often takes a great deal of preparation and effort. A camp takes none. Raids are for hardcore players only, but some people find them fun and rewarding, so there should be games with raids. Camping on the other hand is universally considered to be boring and dreary work. I just don't see how you can compare the concepts of Camping and Raiding, in terms of either effort or fun.

[Digita]

Also, if someone is online and in game enough to note and announce the kill in their channel (guild or player made) and they are NOT doing it from the kill zone, it begs the question again, why are they complaining when they were NOT there to compete for the kill.

As Silverblaze and others keep stating (and no one responds to this legitimate head-scratcher) there is NOTHING preventing other groups from spending the time and making the gear and competing for the pull of the boss. How hard is it to get 3-5 people together with the right gear and abilities to do this?