Just a word of thanks

[C`gan]

After events of the past couple weeks in-game, I wanted to drop a line to the devs, both current and past, for something that until these past weeks I'd taken completely for granted. That being said, I should go into a little bit of detail.

I was asked by certain members of Order Shard about some of the terrain around Istaria. Suffice it to say, the question was on faultlines and whether or not one exists. Well, being the RPer that I am (and a geology major at that), I headed off and started looking around in the region in question. I came across a startling discovery. As it turns out, it appears there is a normal faultline cutting through Istaria, with a bit of a strike-slip component. It follows all the accepted patterns of normal faults, right down to the differences in rock and resources (yes, certain areas show gems and metamorphosed resources for gathering). It amazed me that I'd been across that area before and had never REALLY paid attention. It even went so far as to follow the rule of Vs for water flow (for those who don't have any training in geology, the rule of Vs says that on a topography map, you can follow where a river goes or went by connecting the points of the Vs made in the contour lines).

Then again, when out by Feladan harvesting bright wisps a while later, I noticed just how the terrain is. It never occurred to me before until I saw the red in the ground clutter that I'd seen this in real life. Feladan is surrounded by karst topography (what happens when a flat region of limestone is worn away by underground water, making caves, and the caves collapsing due to too much weight and not enough support) and probably a beautiful cave system underneath that is unstable and incapable of supporting lairs. My surprise really showed up when a dragon asked where the nearest lairs were. I was floored that it really followed well (by the way, either the Feladan elves are flooding the bedrock under the town with concrete or Feladan's in for one heck of a fall when the big cave they're sitting on collapses).

So, that being said, I'd really like to thank you for putting in all the little details, including in the geology of Istaria, to really make this a fun, challenging, and beautiful game. It makes me want to do some more paleogeologic mapping to see what else is out there. For instance, I know somewhere there's an obduction zone otherwise the elves of Feladan would never have gotten all that beautiful green ophiolite they decored the town with. So, that should be somewhere available. I'm still guessing where they quarried it. And since obduction comes from subduction, my guess is it'll have to be along the coast north and west of Dralk, possibly covered in blight and hidden or in a band between Trandalar, Dralk and Kion, since all have active volcanos.

[Vaz]

Fascinating. Thanks for shedding light on this.

[Fridlekh]

not to dampen your RP spirits, but I think most of what you are describing is artifacts of the terrain texture layer auto-masking algorithms. ^_^

I don't think tectonic activity is canon, so I'd be careful about getting too in-depth before more info is released oficially. Would be a shame to write stories that centered around geology based on on false assumptions... but I can see how some assumptions have to be made considering the state of lore and histroy of the world. (it's getting better though)

Ah well, as long as you're having fun, right?

[AmonGwareth]

Rick would likely be able to shed more light on this, but some of what C'gan described may be due to the application that was used originally to develop the layout of the world and the placement of resources and regions and the like.

We don't use it now, but before launch and up until the merge there was a tool used for large-scale world building and region development that was a GIS application. I forget the name of it, but it is the same kind used for doing large maps and studies of population distributions and topographic analysis and that sort of thing.

[Hrough]

That's fascinating, when you come to think of it! I've never really paid too much attention to the terrain, except for when something manages to make my face hit the floor in one way or another. Even if it's not intended, you have to admit that it makes for a very nice coincidence.

[Fridlekh]

ah, ArcGIS? I thought that was only used once upon a time to generate the maps and coastlines, lol. shows what I know... I wonder what all it was used for... or could have been?

[C`gan]

Well, as for assumptions, here's what I have for support:

In the region between Tazoon and Granite Hills, running westward generally following the road north of Heather and through Duskhold and down to the water, the Vs suggest a depression in the terrain. This is also backed up with the hills on either side. Note that these hills for the most part have a particular shape. Sharp slopes toward the center depression, gentle slopes facing away. Those items in a geologic point of view suggest classic normal faulting (spreading line in the region of the depression). Either that or you have an extremely odd east-west anticline set that doesn't mesh with the Tazoon desert in the south and HEAVY erosion of the underlying strata on the order of silt in a mudslide. The anticline isn't supported by how little deltaic sediment there is at the end of that depression line. However, there is enough of a delta to suggest that rains are carrying sediment that way.

As for the karst topography in Feladan, you have all the odd bumps and drops, plus on the rare occasions you see actual dirt, it's ruddy. Common occurrence for limestone weathering is a dirt called "terra rosa", literally "rosy earth". Limestone is ideal for cave systems, as is shown through southern Indiana and other regions where it is the significant bedrock of the region. Cracks in the limestone allow water to flow down and through the stone, causing erosion. This erosion forms caves. Now, if the upper levels of limestone simply weigh too much for the underlying rock pillars or arching ceiling keystone pressures to hold, the roof collapses, leaving a surface indention, sometimes opening caves to the surface. Unfortunately, Feladan region doesn't have any such openings, but in all honesty it would be ideal for consideration when it comes to adding in the catacombs system under development by David before the EI buyout.

The green rocks in such abundance with white snaky streaks through it as found in Feladan's walls and decorum are classic ophiolite. It's created by obduction of oceanic crust onto continental crust. It goes low temperature, moderate pressure metamorphism with the presence of water to make the beautiful green color and the white cement joins. Obduction happens because of subduction of the underlying crust. The by-product of subduction is volcanism along the edge of continental crust where the oceanic crust edge is melting and travels upward because of the buoyancy from the superheated water. Now, granted, this isn't the only way volcanos are formed, but the fact that there are three active at Kion, Dralk, and Trandalar and at least two questionable and/or dormant volcanos at Abandoned Island and Drulkar and a granitic dike or sill at Granite Hills suggesting magma intrusion does make one question about the source magma chambers and their proximity to the ocean. By comparison, look at the western coast of South America and see how close the volcanos are to the ocean.

Now, assuming that all this is just a random generation by a computer modeling program without paying any attention whatsoever to what can be shown by real-life examples, it's rather creepy at how realistic this random generation is. I prefer to think that this all had at least some input from the designers during original development. That is why I wanted to say thanks.

[AmonGwareth]

There's the remnants of a volcanic cinder cone near the south end of the Dalimond Ridge. It has gems in it.

Also, there may be volcanos on the eastern continent and the elves did originate there.

[LaughingOtter]

If I recall Rick's comments on the usage of GIS in world creation correctly, portions of the world map were generated using real-world data. This process was later abandoned in favor of manual landscape generation due to the amount of time-consuming clean up work involved with using GIS data.

It may have been very time-consuming, but obviously the results were outstanding.

[Piira Laxdaela]

Now, assuming that all this is just a random generation by a computer modeling program without paying any attention whatsoever to what can be shown by real-life examples, it's rather creepy at how realistic this random generation is. I prefer to think that this all had at least some input from the designers during original development.

This is all very interesting to me, though I think it's similar to a false allegory of sorts. I was always under the impression that someone just said "let's put a big mountain here and raise up this part and water goes here so lower this part and we'll have a cliff here so make a sharp and quick lower and maybe a bit of a river system with a swamp here...." similar to what folks can do in 3ds max or another renderer with meshes and heightmaps without any real knowledge needed as to geology or geographical tendencies.

Could you use your theory to explain the extreme up and down piles of rocks south of Desert Edge (surrounding the Tower) or over by Tishlar? I've always thought these to resemble Arizona/New Mexico/and the rest of SW US, but they seem to be too close together. Also, if parts of Istaria are based on geological tendencies, how does one get or where can one find a thin canyon- not a valley- going through a flat topped mountain (Aug mines)? I'm sure you can answer these two, and by the time you do, I'll have six more that are strange for you to explain.

[LaughingOtter]

I'm sure you can answer these two, and by the time you do, I'll have six more that are strange for you to explain.

Poetic license?

[gopher65]

Istaria is only 100x100 KM. The entire place is too close together. That's just the way MMOGs are, at least for the moment. There's only so much space they can have, so they can't make it completely realistic. For instance, if they made it completely realistic based on the area where I live then Istaria would be completely, utterly flat (not even a little hill) with 1 river and a large number of shallow surface ponds, with wheat, barley, and canola crops in every direction.

That wouldn't be much fun, but it *would* be easy to generate.

[C`gan]

Could you use your theory to explain the extreme up and down piles of rocks south of Desert Edge (surrounding the Tower) or over by Tishlar? I've always thought these to resemble Arizona/New Mexico/and the rest of SW US, but they seem to be too close together. Also, if parts of Istaria are based on geological tendencies, how does one get or where can one find a thin canyon- not a valley- going through a flat topped mountain (Aug mines)? I'm sure you can answer these two, and by the time you do, I'll have six more that are strange for you to explain.

You mean the sandstone canyons? Well, there is the idea of the painted desert there, but with the narrowness, I'd more like to point out the badlands of South Dakota. Heavy silt (and obviously some sand component) during lithification. Then when weathering occurred, areas with more silt were more easily blown or washed away. Sometimes wind and water just do strange things. But you're right in one regard, I'd be expecting the dunes to move from west to east by aeolian processes around them.


As for the Aughundell mines, I'm fairly certain that while the plateau is natural, the thin canyon is artificial, having been expertly dug by dwarven miners over years to reach resources safely. Evidence of this can be found in one of the side mines where they still have running an underground mining operation. At some point, the roof may be too unstable for safety, so dig the roof out and, well, a narrow canyon.

[Oakleif]

What would the battlemented trench near Selen be? Obviously, the sharpened logs were put up to discourage trench runs by dragons or undead dragons (not sure which), or perhaps to encourage such amongst the more adrenaline seeking members. However, is the canyon perhaps originally a natural feature along a fault?

[Piira Laxdaela]

But you're right in one regard, I'd be expecting the dunes to move from west to east by aeolian processes

No no no, believe me, I wasn't "right". I wouldn't have even guessed.

I'm fairly certain that while the plateau is natural

It sure is a strange plateau though. It's not all the same height so can't be glacial or what's the term for what's happening in Himalayas (sp?) between the Indian subcontient and Asia?

Istaria is only 100x100 KM. The entire place is too close together.

False. You are assuming real world metric measurements are equal in Istaria. The M of Istaria is just a basis, it may mean Meters, but the models are not all scaled the same. We know that the highest mountain in Istaria is less than 2000m high. Roughly 6000 real feet is completely unrealistic. If a Dragon equips a disc and then detaches it, the disc will float away but be shown as 0m away. But the disc is nearly the distance of the dragon's model. And there is no way the dragon is 0-3 real feet in length.


Ok, here's some more C'gan:
Try the Rift of Trandalar. What's up with the split, perhaps continents moving away, but why would the water not rush in? What's the purpose of the rocks to block the edges there and why is the floor of the rift so smooth?
Werewolf Island: I mean, there are Walls of earth built up around it. But who in their right mind goes out in the middle of the ocean to surround an uninhabited island (gifted/human) with dykes? Surely the werewolves didn't do it.
Shepard's Mountain: I don't even know what happened there.

[gopher65]

False. You are assuming real world metric measurements are equal in Istaria. The M of Istaria is just a basis, it may mean Meters, but the models are not all scaled the same.

True. David Bowman stated in several pre-release interviews that Istaria was 10000 Square Kilometres. If it is a square, it is 100x100. It kinda doesn't look like a square, so maybe it is 125x80. But regardless, it isn't that big.

And the M does indeed equal metres.

As I said, it is an MMOG. We quite simply don't have the technology to make a world that is completely realistic. We can come close enough, but those worlds aren't all that fun. This is better.

[tramsan]

It's Majick!