New poll on dragon flight...

[Hrough]

I like most of this.

However if you hatchling the ability to glide you should also give the same ability to dryads.

I agree, although I think a hatchling should be able to glide farther and faster than a dryad. (Dryads seem like they would flutter-fall 'slowly' in a direction, kind of like a leaf, while I'd think Hatchlings would glide more like a heavier flying squirrel)

[Theolaerynn]

I completely fail to see how this will add anything to the game. It seems to me to be nothing more than unnecessary annoyance, and a change just to make a change. I know you remember when AE/Tulga used to do this, and how wonderfully those changes all turned out *not* to be.

I say let 'em work on something useful.

[Fridlekh]

I'll take that as a vote to leave the option off by default.

[Theolaerynn]

If one must waste development effort, then I must at least be thankful for any options to turn it off :-)

[Khetienn]

Still a hatchling myself, so I'm not sure whether the 'auto-flight off a cliff-edge' is something I'd like ingame or not. However, I really like the thought of hatchlings gliding down off of cliff-edges (or other high objects, like roofs...). It could be a neat role-play option: hatchling tests its wings by trying to fly, and only manages a short glide. It would be a nice thing, to be able to go down-and-out from whatever I was falling off of while hunting or crafting: landing at the very foot of the cliff isn't usually a great idea.

[Shian]

I completely fail to see how this will add anything to the game.

It will make it so you don't have to stop and hold down Q for four seconds just to get in the air from a cliff. Aide from a slight mechanical advantage, It would look a bit more natural to auto fly when running off a cliff. Something like0:22 of this maybe?

A hatchie glide would also be a bit more natural. Just seems wierd to have those wings and have them taped to a hatchie's side until they become adult. I know on my hatcies, I would at least be trying to use them whether they would support my weight or not (as in a glide)

[Theolaerynn]

*part* of the change will do that, and I do like that part. I am all for good animations and eye candy, when there are resources available to implement them that would not be better spent elsewhere.

But there are also other suggestions in there that I do not care for, like the 45 degree downward angle thing and such. But that is a matter of taste, and ideally if the features were implemented there would be a toggle for each.

That is not my main concern, however. My concern is that we are still playing a dying game, and unless the development resources are spent more wisely the term 'dying' will become past tense.

Horizons has had an uphill battle from day one, with its share of mismanagement and green developers. Inexperience is no longer a reasonable excuse, though, because even the new folks have had plenty of time to cut their teeth on Horizons. If they did not learn from past lessons, if they do not pick their battles correctly, and if they do not properly allocate their resources, then Istarians will soon find themselves homeless.

[velveeta]

*sighs heavily* what kinda world we live in where even pessimists can become depressed by all the negativity?




come to blight, we are alive and well and ready for the future. we expect to remain the best shard for a few more years yet.......

[Hrough]

This is a bit pessimistic even for my taste. I say come off it, Theolaerynn, and just wait and see what happens. It is nothing worth getting your tail in a knot about, for one thing.

The fact that they're doing ANYTHING is nice. Small improvements like these may seem purely mechanical, but it is the little things that will attract people to a game like Horizons over something like Vanguard, WoW or Everquest.

[Vaz]

This is a bit pessimistic even for my taste. I say come off it, Theolaerynn, and just wait and see what happens. It is nothing worth getting your tail in a knot about, for one thing.

Seconded.

My post is too short.

[Solitaire]

I'll third that.

One thing that you should realize is that the person working on these little eye candy things is getting himself up to speed with the system. Plus I believe that some of them were things he was working with back when he was an intern with Tulga. It does not take a heck of a lot of time to work these little nicknacks and I'm certain that these are just some of the things he is working on and those others will have a more direct impact upon game play for the better. Tis hard to wait as long as we have for things to happen but it takes time to build a new team and get them all up to a good level of efficiency. Especially with a system as complex as this. They are doing ok and things will continue to improve.

[Theolaerynn]

I believe you have misunderstood, and taken a simple warning and turned it into a doom and gloom post. That is not at all my intent. It is simply stating a rule of development, and it is one of the rules that the developers of Horizons have gotten wrong for many years now. The fact that Horizons is still alive when so many of its siblings have become extinct speaks volumes for the potential, and how very unwilling she is to go into that long, cold night.

But that rule of development is a rule for a reason, and it is born of the laws of economics. You can only carry on so long before the money runs out, and Horizons has used up most of its 9 lives. Again, this is not doom and gloom, I feel quite strongly that Horizons will survive. Why else would I spend the time and money and heartache? That does not change the simple fact that the better the development team prioritizes, the more successful Horizons will be.

To say that my post was pessimistic, though, is like saying a person warning about drunk driving is being pessimistic. They aren't, they are simply issuing a warning, and one that is backed up by a long history of statistics. They don't want you to suffer consequences, they want you to avoid them. And it is quite easy to avoid, all you have to do is not drive drunk. Properly managing development is much tougher, but the principle is the same in that failing to heed the warning signs might still result in a fatal crash.

As for the person working on these changes, I am familiar with his work. Some of it was quite nice. Some of it we argued about. These things happen. The question is, did anyone learn anything from the mistakes that were made, or were they lost in the shuffle when Horizons started changing hands?

[Nisse]

Something about Flight

[Eisdrache]

The bat studies is really impressive! As I am pilot and hobby-physicist its really interesting this problem is solved as it seems.

From my point of view I do not see a real reason why Dryads should not have the same flight "mechanics" ingame as adult dragons have. Of course the physical mechanics would be completely different, but if you look at real butterflies there is nothing so see about "flatterfall" or "hovering" at all. They start and land and fly free. So for Dryads there should be the same usage of flight than for adult dragons. To get a difference between Dryad and Dragon flight I would suggest the following:

Dryads should have the same fly speed as they have ground speed. (As there are always flying, there should not be a difference, this might be higher than any walking race.)

Adult dragons should have a remarkably higher fly speed than ground speed. (As they are originated as flying beings not walking ones. That means, compared to the recent state, there should be an increase in velocity, but a decrease in speed. Alternativly an adult dragon might get another stat to be able to chose between "more ground speed" (for those dragons that improved their leg muscularity while running and crafting) and "more fly speed" for those that trained their shoulders while hunting and scouting from air.)

Hatchlings should have a higher ground speed than adults, but less than Dryads, maybe on the same level like the walking ones. (As they are low in mass compared to adults and trained to playfully run around, the are used to run. In addition their might be either a kind of "slow sprint" to be able to keep close to the others, or (better) a rift like jump and glide mechanic, where the glide is at higher speed. Maybe sprint should be changed at all for dragon hatchlings and be turned into a wing supported jump into the air and glide away instead of faster running.)

[Theolaerynn]

From my point of view I do not see a real reason why Dryads should not have the same flight "mechanics" ingame as adult dragons have. Of course the physical mechanics would be completely different, but if you look at real butterflies there is nothing so see about "flatterfall" or "hovering" at all. They start and land and fly free. So for Dryads there should be the same usage of flight than for adult dragons. To get a difference between Dryad and Dragon flight I would suggest the following:

Dryads should have the same fly speed as they have ground speed. (As there are always flying, there should not be a difference, this might be higher than any walking race.)

Adult dragons should have a remarkably higher fly speed than ground speed. (As they are originated as flying beings not walking ones. That means, compared to the recent state, there should be an increase in velocity, but a decrease in speed. Alternativly an adult dragon might get another stat to be able to chose between "more ground speed" (for those dragons that improved their leg muscularity while running and crafting) and "more fly speed" for those that trained their shoulders while hunting and scouting from air.)

Hatchlings should have a higher ground speed than adults, but less than Dryads, maybe on the same level like the walking ones. (As they are low in mass compared to adults and trained to playfully run around, the are used to run. In addition their might be either a kind of "slow sprint" to be able to keep close to the others, or (better) a rift like jump and glide mechanic, where the glide is at higher speed. Maybe sprint should be changed at all for dragon hatchlings and be turned into a wing supported jump into the air and glide away instead of faster running.)

Just remember to factor in that Dragons must go through an Adult Rite of Passage, and later an Ancient Rite of Passage. If you give Dryads the same or similar advantages for free from the moment they enter Istaria at level 1, you undermine much of the work Dragons do to earn their flight.

Don't get me wrong, I think Dryads should have some form of flight. I just think it requires careful planning to ensure all those who have spent so much time and effort earning their wings are not shafted.

[awdz]

Just remember to factor in that Dragons must go through an Adult Rite of Passage, and later an Ancient Rite of Passage. If you give Dryads the same or similar advantages for free from the moment they enter Istaria at level 1, you undermine much of the work Dragons do to earn their flight.

Seems like it would be really cool for dryads to be able to do quests to lengthen/enlarge their wings and thus get extra height to their flight - maybe be able to flutter up top of a building or sit on a high tree limb. :-)

[Eisdrache]

Agreed. That would give space to more dryad quests.

Maybe Dryads could also start as maggot like worms? Like butterflies again? *giggles*

I do not see where Dryad-Flight would have a negativ effect on Dragon rites. A dragon goes through the rites because *he* wants to fly, regardless whats happening to the Dryads.
Honestly spoken I have no understanding for any kind of grudge in this case. If I want to become an esteemed ancient dragon I have to work hard for it. If I want to become an easy-to-get little hummingbird thats ok too. For me theres more in being an ancient dragon than flight, and if there are other little things flying from the beginning that does not effect me at all.

[Theolaerynn]

I do not see where Dryad-Flight would have a negativ effect on Dragon rites. A dragon goes through the rites because *he* wants to fly, regardless whats happening to the Dryads.
Honestly spoken I have no understanding for any kind of grudge in this case. If I want to become an esteemed ancient dragon I have to work hard for it. If I want to become an easy-to-get little hummingbird thats ok too. For me theres more in being an ancient dragon than flight, and if there are other little things flying from the beginning that does not effect me at all.

It has nothing to do with any kind of grudge, it has to do with effort -vs- reward. Flight is the one major advantage Dragons have. They are by Istarian lore fearsome and powerful creatures, and yet bi-peds can multi-class such that they are considerably stronger in combat. I have no problem with that, those players work hard for it. But it does underline the fact that the chief advantage of Dragons is flight.

Now, I love Dragons, and I am one of those that came to Istaria primarily due to being able to play a Dragon. I am not the least bit interested in playing anything else here, and would have played them regardless of Dryad flight. And as I have said, I am pro Dryad flight.

But isn't it obvious too that Dragons should gain some benefit to completing two Epic quests? Benefits that are not given to other races for free?

Currently, one of the big divisions is that Bi-Peds get multi-class and Dragons get flight. I don't want multi-class, I like that there are unique traits to either path. Go ahead and give Dryads flight, they have wings, right? But give Dragons something else then that is unique, and let Dryads gain flight through an Epic quest similar in effort to the RoP. That is win/win, Dryads get a killer new quest and a wonderful ability at the end of it, and Dragons still gain something unique that compensates them for the disadvantages we incur.

[Eisdrache]

As I see it, the quests are the reward already. Especially the RoP is a fine piece of art and fun to play it. So I guess the dragons already are rewarded with the possibility to play it. I absolutely see no effort in playing it.

Maybe bipeds are stronger in fight, but the ability to lift and leave the foes on the ground or other way round to bring death right from the air is a crushing advantage during battle.

An easy and quite natural way to avoid Dryads getting this advantage on top of the multiclass advantage the flight height could be limited, so they would be still reachable for arrows, spears and spells. Most insects and even smaller birds do not fly very high so it could be natural to the dryads aswell.

[Malaquion]

Maybe bipeds are stronger in fight, but the ability to lift and leave the foes on the ground or other way round to bring death right from the air is a crushing advantage during battle.

Uhm, dragons can't perform any actions at all while they're flying. :/ They can't even activate crafting abilities or use items. The only advantage in battle is being able to make a quick getaway.

EDIT: Also, no effort in playing the RoP? Please tell me you're kidding. The Lunus RoP at least is, though kind of fun, a royal pain in the tail, having to run all over the place to do this or that and having to fight so many powerful creatures so far above your level.

No effort, my butt.