Lair Storage Chambers : proposition for a change.

[Salis]

I think that the storage chambers for lairs should be revamped somewhat.
Currently I find no real incentive to use any storage chamber above T2 (except for an occasional issue where a T3 provides a real bonus due to otherwise lost space).
Currently:
T1: 1 cube, bulk 25000
T2: 2 cubes, bulk 40000
T3: 4 cubes, bulk 55000
T4: 6 cubes, bulk 70000
T5: 6 cubes with twist, 85000
T6: 9 cubes with a twist, 100000

I think if possible a change could be made in the following direction.
No change of the layout or chamber size is made. Except maybe offer the possibility of a mirrored T5 and T6. (I could never use them anyway since the entry point was always facing the wrong way.)

Bipeds can easily upgrade their storage options by building the next tier of silo with exactly the same footprint and without the need to build a passageway to it first that needs to properly connect to it.
Since lairs are built in 3D instead of 2D, I would allow for some lenience into this department. And have storage chambers have at least equal bulk per volume taken. Since bulk cannot be going above 100000 usable bulk for 1 stack (9999 * 10 bulk (except lair components 120, however most items are 10 bulk or less)). I would suggest that we up the stacks allowed in a storage chamber. To make it easy 1 stack per Tier.
This could result in the following: 1 cube = 25000 bulk, aka current T1

T1 (1 cube): bulk 25000, 1 stack
T2 (2 cubes): bulk 50000, 2 stack
T3 (4 cubes): bulk 100000, 3 stack
T4 (6 cubes): bulk 150000, 4 stack
T5 (6 cubes but with a nasty turn): bulk 175000 (need to have some difference with T4), 5 stack
T6 (9 cubes but with a nasty turn): bulk 225000, 6 stack.

Building only T1 will give you still the most possible stacks, however there will be a trade-off to the passageways you will need to build to them.
However with the proposed changes you can do away with some of those corridors but loose one or more stacks in the process. I think this will benefit the higher tier rooms somewhat and offer an incentive to actually use them.

What do you think?
Salis

[Hoberton]

I think that the storage chambers for lairs should be revamped somewhat.
Currently I find no real incentive to use any storage chamber above T2 (except for an occasional issue where a T3 provides a real bonus due to otherwise lost space).
Currently:
T1: 1 cube, bulk 25000
T2: 2 cubes, bulk 40000
T3: 4 cubes, bulk 55000
T4: 6 cubes, bulk 70000
T5: 6 cubes with twist, 85000
T6: 9 cubes with a twist, 100000

I think if possible a change could be made in the following direction.
No change of the layout or chamber size is made. Except maybe offer the possibility of a mirrored T5 and T6. (I could never use them anyway since the entry point was always facing the wrong way.)

Bipeds can easily upgrade their storage options by building the next tier of silo with exactly the same footprint and without the need to build a passageway to it first that needs to properly connect to it.
Since lairs are built in 3D instead of 2D, I would allow for some lenience into this department. And have storage chambers have at least equal bulk per volume taken. Since bulk cannot be going above 100000 usable bulk for 1 stack (9999 * 10 bulk (except lair components 120, however most items are 10 bulk or less)). I would suggest that we up the stacks allowed in a storage chamber. To make it easy 1 stack per Tier.
This could result in the following: 1 cube = 25000 bulk, aka current T1

T1 (1 cube): bulk 25000, 1 stack
T2 (2 cubes): bulk 50000, 2 stack
T3 (4 cubes): bulk 100000, 3 stack
T4 (6 cubes): bulk 150000, 4 stack
T5 (6 cubes but with a nasty turn): bulk 175000 (need to have some difference with T4), 5 stack
T6 (9 cubes but with a nasty turn): bulk 225000, 6 stack.

Building only T1 will give you still the most possible stacks, however there will be a trade-off to the passageways you will need to build to them.
However with the proposed changes you can do away with some of those corridors but loose one or more stacks in the process. I think this will benefit the higher tier rooms somewhat and offer an incentive to actually use them.

What do you think?
Salis

Plot Silos as of right now:

T1 Human Silo: bulk 20000
T2 Human Silo: bulk 32000
T3 Human Silo: bulk 44000
T4 Human Silo: bulk 56000
T5 Human Silo: bulk 68000
T6 Human Silo: bulk 80000

Dragon Storage silos already store more than any other storage Silo and you are proposing even more bulk with more stack ability? What more do you want?

[AmonGwareth]

The difference in volume compared to bulk is indeed out of whack. And bulk changes could be considered for these chambers, but I'm afraid stack changes are pretty much out of the question as increasing the number of stacks has a direct impact on the database footprint of players (which are already pretty amazingly big).

Currently the bulk limit for Dragon storage chambers is based on the 10 bulk of a raw resource, compared to an 8 bulk for processed that biped silos have. Since no stack can be larger than 9999 items that is why tier 6 tops out at 100k.

[Shian]

I still think any silo above T2 (and T2 only to take empty space) is an utter waste of time considering the limitations on:

1. Size of the lair. Even the large lairs are what? 5x5x6? The smallest I've seen is a 3x3x10-NO way to put in any of these ridiculous silos.

2. openings for the adjacent structures to meet said silo

3. the fact they take up two and three levels

It dosen't matter to me if they have double thier bulk. They still only hold one stack and take up room that can be better spent on storage and/or other structures.

MUCH easier to just get in a deal with a biped- help him build his T5 silo, which does not take up a quarter of thier plot -something I find a bit bitter in exchange for use in your lair.

[Valornyx]

On the subject of dragon silos .. would it be possible to increase the range at which a dragon silo is accessible..

On any but the largest biped plots you can access silos from inside shops from a good portion of the plot due to the smaller size of the silo footprints .. dragon silos are inaccessible from almost anywhere but directly in front of them .. it would be a huge assistance if dragons did not have to drag resources around their own lairs but could access silos directly from a larger range

[Shian]

On the subject of dragon silos .. would it be possible to increase the range at which a dragon silo is accessible..

On any but the largest biped plots you can access silos from inside shops from a good portion of the plot due to the smaller size of the silo footprints .. dragon silos are inaccessible from almost anywhere but directly in front of them .. it would be a huge assistance if dragons did not have to drag resources around their own lairs but could access silos directly from a larger range

Not only that, but some biped plots you can access the silos from a large raduis outside of the plot in addition to while on the plot. I would like to see dragon silos accessible while in the entire lair.

[Kerech]

Dragon Storage silos already store more than any other storage Silo and you are proposing even more bulk with more stack ability? What more do you want?

The difference is in footprint size. Biped silos of T2/T4/T6 take up the same footprint size, so there's no penalty for building a T6 over a T2, other than the resources required.

A dragon T6 storage takes up several cubes of space to get that storage so there is a severe penalty for the extra storage space it provides.

I think that's what the original post is trying to address.

[Kumu Honua]

Accessing silos.

In my old lair, the silos were on the level below my crafting machines. I was able to access the silos through the floor of the machines. This worked well for many of the machines. Some weren't so useful since silo's took up so much room that I could only get 4 on one side of the lair at maximum efficiency.

[Salis]

To put my proposal into perspective let me demonstrate with a comparison between 2 very possible layouts based on the 4*6*7 lair complex.

First the legend
EN: entrance (spans 2 levels)
GH: Grandhall (4 levels)
VA: Vault
BE: Bend
ST: Straigth
3W: 3W
4W: 4W
SR: Spiral Reverse (2 levels)
SC: Spiral Corner (2levels)
SS: Spiral Straigth (2 levels)
L6: Library T6
L4: Library T4
CS: Crystalshaping Tier 4
SW: Stoneworking Tier 4
ES: Essence Shaping Tier 4
SM: Smelting Tier 4
GW: Gemworking Tier 4
T1: Storage Tier 1
T2: Storage Tier 2 (2 levels)
T3: Storage Tier 3 (2 levels)
T4: Storage Tier 4 (3 levels)
T5: Storage Tier 5 (2 levels)
T6: Storage Tier 6 (3 levels)

Both plan holds: a Grandhall, all workshops (5) at Tier 4 (most benefit vs size), a vault, a tier 4 and tier 6 library.
I think a fairly decent lair maybe lacking a lair chamber, but if one wants you can replace perhaps some storage in favor of the required a T2 lair chamber.
Plan 1: favors T1 storage chambers
Plan 2: favors T5 and T6 storage chambers
To keep it simple I kept both floorplans Level 1 to 4 identical, only level 5 to 7 storage level is altered.

Plan 1:                             Plan 2:

Level 1:        Level 2:

VA VA EN EN     CS CS EN EN
VA VA BE BE     CS CS L6 L6
GH GH GH GH     GH GH GH GH
GH GH GH GH     GH GH GH GH
GH GH GH GH     GH GH GH GH
GH GH GH GH     GH GH GH GH

Level 3:        Level 4:

SW SW ES ES     SM SM SR L4
SW SW ES ES     SM SM 3W L4
GH GH GH GH     GH GH GH GH
GH GH GH GH     GH GH GH GH
GH GH GH GH     GH GH GH GH
GH GH GH GH     GH GH GH GH

Level 5:        Level 6:            Level 5:        Level 6:

GW GW SR T1     T1 T1 T1 T1         GW GW SR SC     T5 T5 3W SC
GW GW 4W 3W     3W 4W 4W 3W         GW GW 4W 3W     T5 T2 4W SC
SS T1 ST T1     SS SR ST T1         T6 T6 3W T2     T6 T6 ST T2
3W 4W 4W T1     T1 T1 ST T1         T6 T2 4W T2     T6 T2 ST T2
T1 T1 3W T1     4W 4W 4W 3W         T6 T6 3W T2     T6 T6 T5 T2
   T1 3W T1     T1 T1 T1 T1         T6 T2 3W T1     T6 T2 T5 T5

Level 7:

T1 T1 T1 T1                         T5 T5    T1
3W 4W 4W 3W                         T5 T2 T1 SC
T1 SR ST T1                         T6 T6 3W 3W
T1 T1 ST T1                         T6 T1 3W T1
3W 4W 4W 3W                         T6 T6 T5 
T1 T1 T1 T1                         T6    T5 T5

Storage overview and calculations
Calculation 1: Current implementation
T1: 25000, 1 stack
T2: 40000, 1 stack
T3: 55000, 1 stack
T4: 70000, 1 stack
T5: 85000, 1 stack
T6: 100000, 1 stack

Calculation 2: using my proposed method
T1: 25000, 1 stack
T2: 50000, 2 stack
T3: 100000, 3 stack
T4: 150000, 4 stack
T5: 175000, 5 stack
T6: 225000, 6 stack

Calculation 3: the biped way: discard the current storage chambers and only keep the Tier 1 size for all tiers: use the bulk of lair storage.
T1: 25000, 1 stack
T2: 40000, 1 stack
T3: 55000, 1 stack
T4: 70000, 1 stack
T5: 85000, 1 stack
T6: 100000, 1 stack

Calculation 4: the biped way: discard the current storage chambers and only keep the Tier 1 size for all tiers: use the bulk of lair storage.
T1: 20000, 1 stack
T2: 32000, 1 stack
T3: 44000, 1 stack
T4: 56000, 1 stack
T5: 68000, 1 stack
T6: 80000, 1 stack

Calculations:

Plan 1:
T1 x 34

Plan 2:
T1 x 5
T2 x 6
T5 x 2
T6 x 2

Calculation 1:
Plan 1: 34 stacks, 850000
Plan 2: 15 stacks, 735000

This shows clearly why the current setup is severly lacking: building higher in tier actually punishes the builder, leaving you with less than half the stacks if done the current proper way: T1 all the way.

In relation to biped plots: plan 1: only needs for 11 T6 silos to surpass the bulksize of a plot. Plan 2: only needs even 10. Stackwise it is another matter. Needing 34 silos, but 34 Tier2 silos would already give 1 088 000 bulk, more then the lair would give. And if your plot can accomodate 34 silos, a Tier 6 size (same footprint) you would have 2 720 000 bulk: or 320% of that of a lair!
Taking plan 2: 15 stacks aka biped silos at T6 gives already 1 200 000 in comparison this is already 163% in bulk. And you would have the same stack amount.

Calculation 2 (My proposal):
Plan 1: 34 stacks, 850000
Plan 2: 39 stacks, 1225000
Now: building here in tiers actually has benefits, not as much in stack: the change is only around 10%, but bulk wise about 44%. A nice improvement for moving up into tiers I think.
To compare the bulk size against a biped plot for plan 2: with T6 biped silos you would need a minimum of 16 silos to have the same bulk. In a plan of 4x4 this wouldn't take to much of your plot (51x51 or larger) I think, leaving room for several workshops and a house.
Naturally we have a stack benefit, but any T6 silo extra narrows the gap in stacks allowed, and gives extra bulk; which regular lairs would be lacking in expansion unless one is willing to sacrifice workshops or grandhall (and what is a lair without a decent Grandhall to boast with).
So lairs: stack benefit, plots: bulk benefit.
(While on the subject: the vault for plots should be diminished severly in footprint, taking half your plot away isn't really fair).

Calculation 3: (Plan 2 doesn't work here as only 1 cube is used for each tier)
Plan 1: 34 stacks
T1 storage: 850000
T2 storage: 1360000
T3 storage: 1870000
T4 storage: 2380000
T5 storage: 2890000
T6 storage: 3400000

This shows clearly this is really not a good idea you have plenty of stacks, but bipeds would have to build at least 43 T6 silos to be comparable. I know a lot of silos can fit on a decent size plot (at least 51 * 51). But you can overdo it aswell.
This is 400% of bulk in comparison to calculation 1

Calculation 4: (Plan 2 doesn't work here as only 1 cube is used for each tier)
T1 storage: 680000
T2 storage: 1088000
T3 storage: 1496000
T4 storage: 1904000
T5 storage: 2312000
T6 storage: 2720000

Now this is comparing directly to a biped plot: 34 silos need to be build.
However this seems still a lot of bulk. This is still 320% more than currently in comparison to calculation 1. But still attainable for a plot holder if he is so inclined.

I hope this puts everything more into perspective.
Clearly my proposed calculation is not so out of whack as some think it would be. And I think Amon it also shows that your concerns about stack size increase is not as worrysome as you think it would be.

Salis

[Dragoniade]

Dragon storages was may pet peeve for many years.
The major issues between the silos and storages is that plot are mostly made in 2D, while lairs are in 2D.
Silo, no matter which capacity, have the same building footprint, but not the same size. But since only the footprint is taken care of, it's not a problem if a silo is 5,10 or 15 meters tall. Which led us with so many nuclear missile launch site in Istaria.

In comparison, storages footprints are in 3D, the bigger the room, the more space it will take in the whole footprint calculation.

Dragon storage need a revamp. I can understand that capacity increase the database load, and that the 9999 stacks limits the bulk, but there still option as to reduce the size of the storage and adding more opening to it.

Dragons are master of the dimensional pocket. There's no reason why the lore couldn't explain a 2 vertical cubes storages, with a pass through opening at the upper level, and a "dimensional pocket" gate on the lower level


Who knows, maybe this time, we can hope to see a change.