put the old DP system back

[Hoberton]

Healer aggro is great in principle, but it badly needs to be tweaked. With the new DP system we basically NEED to have Healers in the group (not clerics. Cleric is no better that Druid, and worse than Spiritist, at healing). And a Healer really can't stand up to that kind of punishment.

I am at a loss here. Why are you saying Clerics are worse than Healers, Druids and Spiritist at healing? What is wrong with the Cleric?

[Shur]

Seriously, what have you all got against the concept of battling efficiently?

Just be more careful and you'll be fine.

Ya know, this is the sort of comment that gets -right- up my tailvent and makes me want to just maul someone.

has anyone ever heard of the concept of a casual gamer? Maybe there are some people out there who take pleasure in pulling whatever mob we think we can handle in whatever quantity we think we can handle it, if we win, we win, if we loose, we die, life goes on.

under the old system it was possible to hunt like this for a few hours a day, then do or play something else while the DP wore off, repeat the next day. under the new system, a casual player must either call off the hunt at one point, or wait several days between.

now, before you ask how i can call myself a casual gamer and still get worked up about being forced to rely on bipeds, allow me to clarify: Actual execution of how i play the game (or any game for that matter) may be quite casual, but how the game works should still match the game lore.

[Zexoin]

The death point number does not prevent you hunting in any way. The penality does, and it only lasts an hour. Let's be clear.

[velveeta]

i am an old fogie - and i am thinking too many gamers have grown up with cheat codes and god mode.

actions have consequences. in rl, in games, in religion, in mythology - every lore you can name has consequences to actions.

please, everyone and anyone - continue to rant, that's what this thread is for, but circular arguments do not a thread make.

cause beating a dead topic makes me want to maul someone.......

[Shur]

The death point number does not prevent you hunting in any way. The penality does, and it only lasts an hour. Let's be clear.

no, the points don't directly, but the more points one has the worse the penalty is......

[gopher65]

I am at a loss here. Why are you saying Clerics are worse than Healers, Druids and Spiritist at healing? What is wrong with the Cleric?

Clerics are marginally better than Druids, far worse than Healers, and slightly worse than Spiritist. Spiritists get Self-Sacrificium, which is an awesome huge, fast recycle heal (that also does an insignificant amount of damage to the caster). Clerics don't get Self-Sacrificium, Full Heal, Superior Res, Superior Heal, or as large a heal increase as Healers, and, unless the person in question has multiclassed Healer as well (which seems redundant), Clerics can't triple tech all of their Tier V heals, which hurts their healing power (lessee... you either leave of Cleanse, Heal Recycle, or Heal Increase. All are bad choices to ignore). All in all they are subpar in the healing department.

Note that I assume that Druids and Spiritists would have multiclassed either Cleric or Healer, and I assume that Cleric would have multiclassed both Druid and Spiritist, since everyone does those things eventually. I'm talking only about which active school people will be forced to play in groups, not about (nearly non-existent) single classed avatars and the merits, or lack-there-of, of multiclassing.

[Zexoin]

no, the points don't directly, but the more points one has the worse the penalty is......

And ?
The penalty lasts at max one hour (or slightly more or less), so don't tell me it prevents you to play for days...

[lightning claw]

And ?
The penalty lasts at max one hour (or slightly more or less), so don't tell me it prevents you to play for days...

but it dose !

Lets say you where in a Faf Hunt, it went honorably wrong, and you got lets say 20 dps. while it might be true the penalty lasts 1 hour or a bit more , the point count stays the same for up to 1 day 4 hours ! Death points at that high of a level are way to severe; if you got that high of a count your effectively out of the game for at least 3 weeks if not more.

[LOVWYRM]

The death point number does not prevent you hunting in any way. The penality does, and it only lasts an hour. Let's be clear.

This is absolutely correct!
And reasonable, if I like it or not.
I tried it yesterday up to 5 dp.
(after a longer relog, cause 2 of dp where due to lag, the other 3 due to pulling 2 emeralds and a beetle at lvl 83 and NOT flying up^^ I could go on playing, without eating anything)

Lightning- you do not have to hunt faf every day- and when you die often killing the other boss mobs: change your tactics, scales or group-members^^

[Galdethriel]

has anyone ever heard of the concept of a casual gamer? Maybe there are some people out there who take pleasure in pulling whatever mob we think we can handle in whatever quantity we think we can handle it, if we win, we win, if we loose, we die, life goes on.

Yes, Shur. Life does go on.

Besides, a casual gamer doesn't mean a suicidal gamer. I consider myself a casual player. I'm mostly the same, save for:

if we loose, we die

Because if you know you're going to lose, you flee. Not hard, save for one or two odd times where you're dragon doesn't manage to leave the ground. Why let yourself die? Does racking up DP by just sitting there letting things kill you make you a casual gamer, or a suicidal gamer? Geez.

under the old system it was possible to hunt like this for a few hours a day, then do or play something else while the DP wore off, repeat the next day. under the new system, a casual player must either call off the hunt at one point, or wait several days between.

Why deliberately rack up death points? That's what I'd like to know. What, you go out and get killed because you think that's what hunting is about? No, hunting is about killing, not being killed.

Besides, Zexoin is right. Let me quote the important parts for you.

The death point number does not prevent you hunting in any way. The penality does, and it only lasts an hour. Let's be clear.

The penalty lasts at max one hour (or slightly more or less), so don't tell me it prevents you to play for days...

now, before you ask how i can call myself a casual gamer and still get worked up about being forced to rely on bipeds, allow me to clarify: Actual execution of how i play the game (or any game for that matter) may be quite casual, but how the game works should still match the game lore.

It does match game lore. Dragons can't cook food like bipeds, that's obvious. So bipeds make food for them. Just because Lunus, being dragons, follow this rule of not being able to make food and thus having to obtain it from bipeds, doesn't make it any less valid in the game lore.

[Mercurius]

This is all very simple ya know. The thing is simply NOT to die. Sure ya can make a mistake and die a few times. But if you keep dieing 20 times, doing the exact same thing, then obviously... You're just doing it wrong. You either don't know your enemy or your own limits very well. Or both. That's what it's all about. Know what your enemy is capable of. How will it act on it's own? Will other nearby mobs join in to support whatever you're fighting? What skills will it use? But most important: Can you take it down? If not, leave it alone.

Something else that I cannot stand here. Having a Lunus dragon doesn't mean that your dragon has to hate bipeds. Vice versa for Helian dragons. There are several Helian NPC's who clearly show hate towards the biped races. Now I remember someone saying this whole new confectioner thing clashes with the lore. But it doesn't. If anything, it only clashes with the personality of your own character.
So I'm sorry to be blunt here but if your dragon cannot buy food from a biped because of it's hate for it. That's your problem. Not that of the devs.

[Takora Drakan]

Besides, if you're a Dragon that doesn't mean that you don't have a good taste for delicous maked meals. There are also things out that taste better than raw meat, like a banana split or similar. Also, if Naka-Duskaels want some worthless metal plates for it, let em have em and be happy with the nice food you get from them.

And guards are not so happy if they catch you when you try to eat the cook, the cook will be sure happy if you let him life and he can give you some nice sweets for it in exchange.

[Hoberton]

Clerics are marginally better than Druids, far worse than Healers, and slightly worse than Spiritist. Spiritists get Self-Sacrificium, which is an awesome huge, fast recycle heal (that also does an insignificant amount of damage to the caster). Clerics don't get Self-Sacrificium, Full Heal, Superior Res, Superior Heal, or as large a heal increase as Healers, and, unless the person in question has multiclassed Healer as well (which seems redundant), Clerics can't triple tech all of their Tier V heals, which hurts their healing power (lessee... you either leave of Cleanse, Heal Recycle, or Heal Increase. All are bad choices to ignore). All in all they are subpar in the healing department.

Note that I assume that Druids and Spiritists would have multiclassed either Cleric or Healer, and I assume that Cleric would have multiclassed both Druid and Spiritist, since everyone does those things eventually. I'm talking only about which active school people will be forced to play in groups, not about (nearly non-existent) single classed avatars and the merits, or lack-there-of, of multiclassing.

Sorry to derail this thread again.

As you can see from my signature I am a Warrior/Cleric with Mage on the way. As you have already stated you NEED Cleric to even be able to cast heals in the first place since Druid and Spiritist do not get Life skills. And, as misinformed as you are, ALL my T5 heals are triple teched. (training points).

Spiritist Self-Sacrificium does do a nice job but can not compare to the amount of heals I can cast in the same time period and they recycle as fast or faster then Self-Sacrificium. That spell also takes away your health which none of the ones I cast do. I also can wear Platemail compared to your Leather which also gives me an advantage in standing up and surviving an opponent.

So please do a little research before stating that what I CAN do is not as good as either of the other 2 classes.

[gopher65]

So please do a little research before stating that what I CAN do is not as good as either of the other 2 classes.

Errm, I've played all of those classes too. You aren't the only one who has multiclassed and made alts. 7 alts, 6 with different primary classes (2 dragons). I have done my "research", if you want to call it that.

As you can see from my signature I am a Warrior/Cleric with Mage on the way. As you have already stated you NEED Cleric to even be able to cast heals in the first place since Druid and Spiritist do not get Life skills. And, as misinformed as you are, ALL my T5 heals are triple teched. (training points).

i: Saying that Cleric is as good a healer as Healer because you can using TP to bump up your Life skill is... well, not true. That's like saying that Ranger is as good at casting Nature spells as Druid because Rangers can dump 200 TP into nature... if they want to blow it. That isn't true either. Druid is the specialized Nature casting class (so why is it a base class? That makes no sense at all. Whoever designed the classes in this game needs to be smacked), and Healer is the specialized healing class. Healers also get 2 special passive abilities which bump up their healing power, and more healing abilities than Clerics.

And yup, Self-Sacrificium does indeed do a tiny amount of damage to yourself, which I also mentioned, if you read my previous post. That doesn't change the fact that a Spiritist + Cleric can heal more than a Cleric + Spiritist. See my next point about "active class".

ii: I was talking about which ACTIVE CLASS people are going to end up playing, not about the fact that everyone multiclasses (which I specifically mentioned). And I said that everyone in GROUP HUNTS would end up playing Healer, Mage, or Dragon. Dragon for pulling, Mage (or maybe conj) for bombing, and Healer for its vastly superior healing (cause of heal aggro) and Sup Res (cause of the new DP system, which is why this is in this particular thread at all. Ha! See? I'm not offtopic, I'm dancing around the topic poking it with a sharp stick!). I can also see there being one Druid or Ranger in the group who serves no purpose except to cast CoT on everyone. Druid might be better, cause then you end up with a backup Cleric (with less armour) too.

iii: I didn't talk about which class was "better" for single class bipeds (if those mythological creatures even exist, hehehehe), or what class was the best biped soloer (Ranger, backed up with Spiritist, Mage, Warrior, Healer, Druid, Monk, and Scout at 100:P, with 18 Cleric for Dispirit Foe).

iv: My point is this: Why play Reaver for a group hunt? Or Zerker, or Chaos Warrior, or Warrior, or Shaman, or Monk, or Spiritist, or Ranger, or KNOC, or ELAR, or Scout, or Crossbowman, or Battlemage, or Wizzard (Rincewind! Has anyone else seen the new The Colour of Magic miniseries?), or Spirit Disciple, or Storm Disciple, or Flame Disciple, or any of the others that I can't remember off the top of my head?

The perfect group now consists of: Dragon, Dragon, Mage, Mage (or conj), Mage, Healer, Healer, Healer, Healer, Druid.

Previously Cleric was a viable option because of their excessive armour (cause, like, all priests everywhere on Earth dress in full plate armour), but now that DPs are a bigger deal, those occasional deaths that a Cleric suffers matter. Suddenly getting 10 DPs over the course of a day-long fight is untenable. (10*5)-5 = 45% penalty. Ouch. That Cleric is now useless in a fight. That cleric either doesn't fight again for a week and a half, or they spend 3 hours sitting in a Tavern periodically munching food. Either way, they are out of the fight. (Personally I'd prefer an XP penalty upon death. At least you can get up and keep fighting when that happens.)

In a perfect group fights now go like this:

1) One of the Dragons pulls.
2) Healers start healing, and try to bounce aggro between the four of them.
3) One of the Healers inevitably dies, because not even an Ancient Dragon can take 15 assorted mobs pounding on them, especially if there are any stuns or mezzes involved.
4) Mages wait for the mobs to get into a small circle around one person, then, as a group, bomb the mobs.
5) One of the other 3 Healers uses Sup Res on their downed comrade, so no DP.
6) Loot, wait 5 minutes for Mage's spells and abilities to recharge, during which time all of the Healers' 5 minute abilities recharge as well.
7) Rinse, Repeat.

Sure you can try and pull less (and I'm sure people will), but it doesn't always work out that way (and such randomness is a good thing; I don't dislike that). Without Healers DPs are bound to build up, and the hunt will have to a premature end (I've seen this happen several times already, and the new DP system isn't even completely live yet!).

[Galdethriel]

Something else that I cannot stand here. Having a Lunus dragon doesn't mean that your dragon has to hate bipeds. Vice versa for Helian dragons. There are several Helian NPC's who clearly show hate towards the biped races. Now I remember someone saying this whole new confectioner thing clashes with the lore. But it doesn't. If anything, it only clashes with the personality of your own character.

We've been trying to get this concept through to him for ages. XD

There is nothing about dragons not being able to cook that contradicts the lore. You expect a huge thing with huge big feet like that to be able to prepare food as perfectly as a biped? One alternative would be to allow Khutits to make simple meals, but the more staunch Lunus would complain about that too, saying "Why do we have to become NAKA to make food!?" blah blah blah you get the point. They'd still be complaining that it's unfair.

But is it really unfair? They have this capability to help themselves, yet they refuse just to feed their own pride? And then complain about it? Just like people have the capability to flee and not die, but are too proud and would rather complain. Just like people have the capability to buy food, but are too proud and would rather complain.

Maybe it would be good character development to have Shur realise that strength comes in adaptability, and weakness in pride. Assuming he does want to be strong, as the typical Lunus does, this would make him stronger.

Or, like I said before, you could quite simply get food out of character. Out of character. As in, not in character, so in the RP it never happened. Is that so difficult, really?

The Death Point system is harder because the devs want it to be something worth considering. I mean, come on, you just died there. Death is generally supposed to be a threat. It's a threat now, unlike before, where it could be all too easily shrugged off. Look at real life. Can you die and just happily shrug it off? I don't think so.

[Silverblaze]

Healer has more heals, thast why it *heals* better, period.

There is no perfect group, and if you need that many healers you are doing somethign wrong in any group also a fact.

As for this deathpoint thing. Amerelium made a good post (sorry or the misspelling in the name) (At 20!!!!) then penalty wasnt hat bad and didnt last that long.

Its not casual to get 20 deathpoints even by the old system. it just plain isnt. the only palce that happens with a competent group is possibly Daknor. Even fafnir isnt that bad. if it is...leave, change groups and rethink the strategy.

This isn't flaming anyone, its sound advice and factual information. if the devs disagreed they'd change it back or lessen it or...remove the challenge in dying at all and rename the game Lemmings.

This complaing solves absolutely nothing. Send a ticket. I bet they don't even watch this thread anymore other than to keep in civil. If you can't see any of these points or simply wont play a game that isn't easy as pie. well, theres the whole line..." pick up your ball and go home".

is it a rather large drastic change? Sure, adapt. Plenty of people do in plenty of games. Yes, they want all the business they can get, I'm sure. I'm not speaking for them or asthem, merely statign what any company wants, success and $$$$.

Give it a shot or don't, but a never ending arguement no one is going to win, that is also might I add fruitless in the end is pointless. Everyone has vented and explained their view...now its just whining. It is also very unbecoming.

[Pharcellus]

Honestly, I have only found one tavern so far, and it was not stocked with anything.

Not that I am out scouring Istaria for taverns, but perhaps a bit of advertising wouldn't hurt.

Especially since the memory leak is so bad for me that much more than 3-4 new areas, and the game locks up at around 2.5GB memory allocated.

[velveeta]

we have stocked tavs on blight.
my tav at middle cliffs has two different and complete meals at most tiers with extras to choose from (thanx yet again to my beloved ry) and i know i am not the only one.....
sil has a tav just down from the pad/port in aug, there are tavs in the selen and other settlements.
on blight, if you need food and a tav, you can find one within seconds.....

[Shur]

And ?
The penalty lasts at max one hour (or slightly more or less), so don't tell me it prevents you to play for days...

let's do a little bit of math here please, i'll try not to get -too- complicated.

I tend(ed) to play about 5-6 hours a day. now, let's say i can get my death rate down to a solid 2-3 for a serious day's hunting. that mean i am going to spend roughly half of my time in game waiting for death penalties to fade unless i start the hunt with zero death points.
here comes the math part of this:

best case scenario: two deaths out of six hours, 6-2=4 thats four hours out of six in game i can actually do stuff.
probable scenario: three deaths in six hours, three deaths out of five hours, 6-3=3 thats three hours of hunting and three of waiting for fade.
worst case scenario (say it's laggy one day): four deaths in five hours, 5-4=1 four hours of waiting for fade and one of actually playing.

<sarcasm>
You're completely right Zex, That one hour timeout in no way effects my ability to play. I'll log right back in and go chase up some blighted wisps!
</sarcasm>
so, my choices are:

A) spend a relatively small percentage of my time in-game actually playing
B) spend twenty-four hours + offline for each death point i have, then lay again when i have fresh slate
C) suckle on the biped bottle.

It does match game lore. Dragons can't cook food like bipeds, that's obvious. So bipeds make food for them. Just because Lunus, being dragons, follow this rule of not being able to make food and thus having to obtain it from bipeds, doesn't make it any less valid in the game lore.

utter crap. what the did dragons eat before the lands were populated with bipeds then?

Something else that I cannot stand here. Having a Lunus dragon doesn't mean that your dragon has to hate bipeds. Vice versa for Helian dragons. There are several Helian NPC's who clearly show hate towards the biped races.

uhhhh huhh, care to show me an example of the reverse? i didn't think so.

[Zexoin]

Well Shur, if you start from fresh, with no DPs, and I take your worst case scenario, you said 4 hours waiting, knowing that the first penalty starts at the second DP and grows by 5 mins every DP. You said you'd wait 4 hours for the penalty to fade, that means you'd have had... 11 DP at least in those 5 hours you played.