Epic mobs and epic content

[Silverblaze]

i swear you guys ignore me and galem

a full group greatly slows down the rate people get the items and though it may not be important to some of you it is important to others. You cant force people to group. cant be done.

10 people = 10% chance at gettign the piece/loot

does anyone else see that point or just me galem and venge?

[Zexoin]

i swear you guys ignore me and galem

a full group greatly slows down the rate people get the items and though it may not be important to some of you it is important to others. You cant force people to group. cant be done.

10 people = 10% chance at gettign the piece/loot

does anyone else see that point or just me galem and venge?

I think 10% in a full group is better than 0% when you're not in the group.

[Vengeance]

You cannot make people wait for a full group to show up so they can kill an Epic Mob. Who is to say that while you are waiting another group shows up and kills it anyway without having 10. You cannot and should not dicate how players engage mobs in the game beyond what is already forced in the game rules. I really believe the simplest fix is to add more of these contested Epics to the game. I especially do not want player driven restrictions being set by other players if what is going on is well within the proper game mechanic. Personally my prefered way to kill Valkor is with a group of 3......yes I said 3. A healer type + stunner, a biped tank, and dragon. He goes down very quickly with a well rounded group of 3. There is no incentive to wait on a full group. If myself and 2 friends get a jump on Valk why should we not kill him? A 33.3% chance of getting Valk piece is much better than 10%.

Give us more Epic mobs I say. They are the T7s we desperately desire to kill.

[Silverblaze]

ok no point in arguing anymore, unless raid rules are established, plenty of people who can solo, duo, or trio the bosses will, not just the "bad guys".

Nice folks do it too, but I'm not adding anything just pointing out flaws, and I clearly dont know what I am talking about


Good luck fininding an answer, I sincerely wish this endeavor all my best.

[Creme]

You cannot and should not dicate how players engage mobs in the game beyond what is already forced in the game rules. I really believe the simplest fix is to add more of these contested Epics to the game. I especially do not want player driven restrictions being set by other players if what is going on is well within the proper game mechanic. Give us more Epic mobs I say. They are the T7s we desperately desire to kill.

I agree 100%.

Players making rules on mobs implies that they "own" the mob. This is very wrong. At some point, other groups will also have their own interest and should be able to play within the mechanics of the game, itself, and not have to "negotiate" with other players, as no mob is, should be, and can be "owned."

Player made rules have gone horribly awry in the past, with each new person introduced getting unhappy over certain rules being set and other groups having their "own" ideas and rules about what is and isn't right.

As far as instant death attacks. I don't see any problem with it, unless it's too overpowered.

Fafnir, for example. Personally, I love his death attack. He is probably, IMO, one of the most well-balanced epic mobs (regardless of loot, I consider him an epic) in game. The key, however; is that you DO get a warning of when he's about to unleash, and a canny player(s) will be able to avoid his scorch.

Part of the challenge to pulling him is being judicious and requires patience. If your puller tries to get him and manages to also bring along every single blight hound on the road between harro and the staging grounds, well then....you deserve every death point your group takes. I don't want to sound mean here, but things can be done with a minimum number of casualties by being patient and careful.

I think all the mobs can be "extracted" by having patience, Daknor included; although I have seen some really nasty wipes where unforeseen adds occur. I think this is part of spending time watching and scouting his pathing and analyzing where the best pull location(s) for him are.

However, I do want to throw in my .02 cents on Daknor. His death attack is not "evadable". I don't think his group mez should be removed, but I think it should be dispellable. The entire group will not be able to dispell it, but to have 1 or 2 members be able to start to dispell the remainder of the group would, I think go far to making him a more balanced fight. Some early warning system on his death attack would also make him more balanced, and perhaps encourage players to engage him.

There are things that can be done to make the high end (not epic) content more desireable.

The staging ground mobs are one heck of a challenging fight; however they don't drop items that make it really worth players spend their time on them. One thing that could be added to them, just as an example, would be master construction forms; perhaps the T6 confectioner forms, T6 radiant holding crystals, etc. Maybe even put back the old set jewelry pieces on them or something similar.

I don't want to see an "easy" button put into game, or the epic mobs be made less epic. Almost all of them, with the exception of Daknor, are very manageable.

Epic mobs should be epic mobs. What do I mean by this? Personally, I don't feel that level 45s and level 60-80 players should be doing them. I don't feel that kills should be held up waiting for players to show up in cargo gear with a mining pick equipped just for the chance at a random. This cheapens them and moves them out of the end-game content category into the "mundane" category. Epic mobs should be difficult and deaths should occur.

I see far too many level 20 players (with ratings under 50) in T6 areas. That's a personal beef of mine and I realize and recognize that others feel differently.


On the matter of characters near teleporters available to buff. This is as simple as it looks, no different than players sitting in Bristugo buffing friends, passing dragons, etc.

[Steelclaw]

Thank you for opening a dialog with us about epic content. I hope that this will yield some useful input when the time comes to make modifications and new bosses.


That being said, I'd like to suggest some requirements and elaborate on some of the items in the list. (It is really an unordered list, rather than an ordered set of steps. )

• By all means, stop the instant kills. There are other ways to make a mob more challenging than making the player avoid (by skill or luck) getting caught up in some super attack of doom. Be creative! If you'd like some ideas, I'd be happy to share them – in some other thread.
  

• Epic bosses must be part of a quest. The quest can be repeatable, but unless the player fighting the boss is on the quest, the fight just won't work. Examples of the fight 'not working': not getting any loot, not being able to deal damage, being extremely vulnerable to some super attack of doom, or getting teleported away. Furthermore, the quest step that enables fighting the boss should, in some manner, be valid only for a limited time.

• Epic bosses must drop useful loot – every time. The loot doesn't have to be epic, but it should be worthwhile. Such loot could be some kind of token the player can redeem for tech comps or formulas, crystals, souped-up ambrosia (that takes away one death point), maybe even slotbot tokens.
  Think of it like playing games at [popular kid's restaurant chain that has an arcade and specializes in pizza] – you get a couple tickets (redeemable for prizes) just for playing -- even if you don't get top score. That small, tangible reward somehow makes the game enjoyable even if you look like you have a negative dexterity stat. (No, you do not get tickets for accidentally throwing your skee-ball into the rings of the adjacent lane.)

• Change-up the location and pathing of the epic bosses. It's more fun (and harder to camp) if you don't know where the mob will spawn and what path it will take.

• Bring back the “instanced lootâ€? behavior. Combined with the above throttling mechanisms, this is also a great opportunity to develop a piece-trading mini-game. (“Collect pieces x,y,z to receive 900 travertine bricks!â€?, “Collect pieces x,y,z,p,s,f,g,n,q,i,h,m,d,e,l for a fighter jet!â€?)

• Epic bosses should require some sort of strategy that goes beyond dealing insane amounts of damage per second. In fact, I'd like to see some where insane DPS is actually counter-productive, if not lethal. It makes for an interesting fight and gives the preference to other character builds -- ones that focus on other tactics besides extremely large bursts of damage.
  
  

[LOVWYRM]

As far as instant death attacks. I don't see any problem with it, unless it's too overpowered.

Fafnir, for example. Personally, I love his death attack. He is probably, IMO, one of the most well-balanced epic mobs (regardless of loot, I consider him an epic) in game. The key, however; is that you DO get a warning of when he's about to unleash, and a canny player(s) will be able to avoid his scorch.

Part of the challenge to pulling him is being judicious and requires patience. If your puller tries to get him and manages to also bring along every single blight hound on the road between harro and the staging grounds, well then....you deserve every death point your group takes. I don't want to sound mean here, but things can be done with a minimum number of casualties by being patient and careful.

I think all the mobs can be "extracted" by having patience, Daknor included; although I have seen some really nasty wipes where unforeseen adds occur. I think this is part of spending time watching and scouting his pathing and analyzing where the best pull location(s) for him are.

However, I do want to throw in my .02 cents on Daknor. His death attack is not "evadable". I don't think his group mez should be removed, but I think it should be dispellable. The entire group will not be able to dispell it, but to have 1 or 2 members be able to start to dispell the remainder of the group would, I think go far to making him a more balanced fight. Some early warning system on his death attack would also make him more balanced, and perhaps encourage players to engage him.

There are things that can be done to make the high end (not epic) content more desireable.

The staging ground mobs are one heck of a challenging fight; however they don't drop items that make it really worth players spend their time on them. One thing that could be added to them, just as an example, would be master construction forms; perhaps the T6 confectioner forms, T6 radiant holding crystals, etc. Maybe even put back the old set jewelry pieces on them or something similar.

I don't want to see an "easy" button put into game, or the epic mobs be made less epic. Almost all of them, with the exception of Daknor, are very manageable.

Epic mobs should be epic mobs. What do I mean by this? Personally, I don't feel that level 45s and level 60-80 players should be doing them. I don't feel that kills should be held up waiting for players to show up in cargo gear with a mining pick equipped just for the chance at a random. This cheapens them and moves them out of the end-game content category into the "mundane" category. Epic mobs should be difficult and deaths should occur.

I see far too many level 20 players (with ratings under 50) in T6 areas. That's a personal beef of mine and I realize and recognize that others feel

differently.


.

I totally agree with Creme here (upps. is that me saying this??^^)
( I left away, where I disagree^^)

[gopher65]

• Epic bosses must drop useful loot – every time. The loot doesn't have to be epic, but it should be worthwhile. Such loot could be some kind of token the player can redeem for tech comps or formulas, crystals, souped-up ambrosia (that takes away one death point), maybe even slotbot tokens.<snip>

• Bring back the “instanced lootâ€? behavior. Combined with the above throttling mechanisms, this is also a great opportunity to develop a piece-trading mini-game. (“Collect pieces x,y,z to receive 900 travertine bricks!â€?, “Collect pieces x,y,z,p,s,f,g,n,q,i,h,m,d,e,l for a fighter jet!â€?)

Those are both good ideas.

Every epic fight should drop 2 groups of things: 1) Their epic loot, 2) A bunch of other non-epic but useful things. Tier 6 ambrosia is a good one, because by putting it on epic mobs you will be limiting its availability (so as not to hurt confectioners), but it is still cool loot.

Collecting pieces that can be turned in as a group for various rewards is a great idea too. In order to get the biggest reward (the epic item I assume) you'd need to turn in all the epic loot pieces. But other combinations would also work, bringing lesser rewards. Could be a good way to get rid of the many extra pieces of the same type that drop.

[Theolaerynn]

One a side note, one I sincerely hope everyone already appreciates, I would like to say thank you to the folks at Virtrium for the wonderful communication they have been sharing with us. I very well remember the days, or years really, when we just could not get any meaningful conversations with the developers. The frustration of that still lingers in my memory, as we all tried to have these kinds of discussions with the devs and it just rarely happened. Most of what little communication occurred happened off to the side with a select few individuals, rather than open forums like this.

So I thank you again, Virtrium, this type of communication is just one more confirmation that I am investing myself in the right game.

[Theolaerynn]

For epic crafting, I liked the way the formulas for Chest Scale of Eminence and such were handled. The crafted item feels very epic, and it is not a simple drop, it requires crafters.

I am not a crafter, mind you, and not overly thrilled that crafters rule the game, but I work with what I am given.

[LOVWYRM]

well spoken, Theo, I agree

[Terao]

Just my ideas:

For killing a epic boss every group member gets a token, a Fafnir token, a SoG token, a Reklar token...

• Looting should work like Daknor, so every groupmember gets a token
• with X amount of tokens you can buy the piece you want from a NPC (the pieces already ingame can be traded that way and new ones can be added easily)
• to kill a boss mob you have to visit the NPC where you can exchange the tokens, the quest has no timers just saying: Kill Reklar... 0/1
• without having the quest you won't deal any damage nor can loot the mob
• after the boss mob is killed you get a cool down timer before you can take the next killing quest, f. e. 16 hours, to avoid the camping issue
• you only can have one boss mob killing quest open

I think that way not the complete game system needs to be changed and some of these mechanics are already used.

[Vahrokh]

Creating an 1 shotting aura on cast timer (and an emote or something "visible") is fine, people have just to be awake, run away, come back.

The "insane damage" thing is manageable in other games as well, by establishing taunt rotations (I don't know if they put taunt in this game, too many years I don't play) and the game becomes to keep up the tanks with healers being mid-cast when the tank switch happens.

An alternative challenge: have the boss spawn adds dealing increasing damage if left alive, that you must kill in a certain way and they give the add killer a debuff preventing him from killing another add for X time. The game is to kill the adds in an orderly way and timing while surviving the fairly hard hitting (and maybe mild AoE) boss. At encounter start, all the people in the tank group receive a buff making only them able to hit the adds and boss.

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

maby the best solution yet is to do with reklar what has been done with valkor.

a shame of all my hard hunted items, but i just love to see new or just a few times level 100 players, that would never get a chance to loot valkor with those "i prefer to bring him down with 3" type of players, being very happy they can get some items now as well.

since this very non-social attitude is not illegal, and i agree to that they shouldnt be dictated to be social by other then their parents, and there is no way of contacting those parents; there must be change to the system.

i feel the change to valkor is brilliant if you look player-base-wide at it.

maby some permanent curse if you hunted an epic more then 100 times should be nice too

Rot of Reklar:
-100str
-100dex
-100foc
-100pow

or

Vomit of Valkor:
-500 health
-500 armour

permanent, but can be undone by not hunting the epic for a year
< / joke >

[Creme]

Anyone contacting my parents would probably hear the same thing that I've always been told.

"Work hard."

"Try your best."

"Don't complain."

"Be polite."

Anyway, my stance toward any aspect of this game is as #1 and #2 above. Work hard, try your best.

I most heartily agree with Vengeance and suggest that more {epic} content is needed; however, as there is much content in game that is currently ignored, I would work on improving that existing content so that it is utilized.

[Amarie Ancalimon]

Please remember to keep this thread on topic. Numerous posts have been edited or removed from this thread because they were not on topic.

Thank you

[GalemThawn]

From the thread: http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...t=17434&page=2

What I am looking at doing is putting together some collections of high level mobs, with different characteristics. Ones that would have abilities and attributes that compliment each other, rather than making one ubernasty that's immune to the flavor of the week damage type. ....

The reason I'm interested in finding out what some folks consider to be "easy" is so I can put together a balanced package of mobs and abilities that compliment each other.

.... ..... One of the things that I think should be clear just from the responses in this thread so far is that different mobs have varying degrees of difficulty for different player race/school combinations. Some mobs will be easier than others to certain players, and thats the way it should be. Establishing a better balance between the varying degrees of difficulty is something that can be done, but like I said, that's a large project for another time.

So again, the more I'm able to find out which mobs are currently difficult, and which ones are easy, and for whom, the better I'll be able to assemble these groups of new mobs I'd like to create. If anyone chooses to remain quiet about what they find to be easy, then the greater the likelihood of these mobs being too difficult for them once they're created. In this case, it truly is a case of the more feedback the better. Keeping quiet doesn't help anyone here.
...
...
...
---

And as for the lower level players who might be concerned about these new mobs I mentioned not being low enough level for them to participate, yes, that will be the case. These will not be introductory level mobs, or even mid-level mobs. They will be high end content. However there will be trickle down from a development sense. The higher level players are a bit trickier to design for, since there are so many possible combinations. I'd rather take the time to get this sort of thing worked out from the top down, since there are fewer variables on the lower end of things. Those mobs will be quicker to create once a solid foundation is laid down.

Currently, in order for a single Epic mob to survive even a small group that can deal out mass damage, the mob has to have incredibly high Health or Armor and Resists. When a group can deal a possible 100,000+ damage in a minute, a single Epic mob is going to go down.

In my recent Reklar fight, the whole fight last only 2 minutes and 30 seconds.
In those 150 seconds, Reklar dealt 34,985 damage spread across 15+ characters.
In the same time, the concentrated attacks of those 15+ characters (likely -4 for for Healers) did enough damage to kill him (I'm not sure what his Health is).

I think one thing needed at Epic battles is support for the main Epic mob. A rounded group that will necessiate the group to disperse their attacks and use tactical planning. The mob group has automattic social agro. Perhaps the supporting mobs have a lesser chance of dropping the same type of item as the main mob.

Many players are currently looking for a challenge. At present, some even call for other players to compete against them for the Epic as a means of raising a challenge, because the Epic itself has become less of a challenge. I think that a more rounded Epic group will help to raise that challenge and possibly even foster cooperation. At present, it is possible that only a couple players with multiple subscriptions can multi-box their characters and take down the single Epic mobs. Add more mobs to that group and it's going to be a lot harder of a challenge. Now, PLEASE understand that I'm not saying this should be done to PREVENT them from multi-boxes characters. They are paying their subscriptions and so have every right to do this. However, I'm all for increasing the level of challenge and I believe that's what some 'endgame' players are calling for.

One of my most heart-pounding memories of Istaria is the Dead Pool. When we first went there with a small, but appropriate level party, we first met the melee mobs on the outskirts. We engaged them. Suddenly, we were getting hit by casters beyond them. Decision time, finish off the melees first or rush the casters. Split the party up or stick together and deal with the incoming damage? Without any kind of planning, our group didn't last very long at all. However, that was likely one of the best encounters I've ever had in Istaria.

I personally don't want Epic mobs that can deal out an AOE deathblow to the entire group. But the mob should be able to deal out a great amount of damage over a short period of time, especially if he's changing targets. The healers of a group should really be fighting to keep up with the heals. In my Reklar fight, I found myself many times looking for someone that was even damaged more than just a little. Out of 110 hits, there were only 6 hits between 1000 and 2000 damage. Only one hit was above 2000 at 4080. There were 71 of those 110 hits that were BELOW 200 damage each. This coming from Reklar.


In summary:
Powerful Epic leaders with terrible attacks, no or limited one-shot kills.
Rounded support group for Epic leader that deals multiple types of damage.

I've had to type this over a couple hours while taking care of other business, so I hope I said everything that I meant to and was clear on what I did say.

[GalemThawn]

Oh, on the topic/issue of having a 10% chance of the main loot when in a group of 10, from experience in other games, I really don't think that is a problem when the respawn is shorter.

In another game, a Guardian drops a sword called the Sword of Lost Light. His respawn was about 15 minutes to 30 minutes (it's been about 7 or 8 years ago). I was there with a group of about 10 people. Some in our group of 10 already had the sword.

With a group of 10 people, if noone had the sword yet and the spawn was 30 minutes, there's a total wait of about 5 hours for everyone to get the sword, but with 10 hectic fights during that time (the Guardian has support mobs).

If you have a smaller group, or less people in the group that needs the item, then the wait will be less.

Keep the NEED to fight the mob down. The Sword of Lost Light was a fully ready weapon. With Istaria's method of having item pieces and a crafter to assemble, keep the number of pieces down and then even people with multiple characters on multiple accounts are going to need to visit the mob less. Yes, they may dominate the area for a while, but once they have the items they want, their need to be there will be gone and they'll move on to other areas.

I know that once I had the Sword of Lost Light, I only went back once more and that was to assist another group with getting the sword.

[Dhalin]

Here's another idea that could be used, to get crafters into the Epic Gear Game:

1). Give the Crafters very high-level formulas to create a Cursed piece of equipment. These pieces of cursed equipment can then be sold on Consigners, or traded, or any such thing. I'd make some tech comps be in the recipe to make the recipe fairly hard to create, so that we don't get a million of these cursed pieces around. We want them to be somewhat common, but yet not a dime-a-dozen, either.

2). Make an Epic Mob, stick it in the world somewhere, and give it, say, a 30-minute repop timer. Make it drop an item, say a scroll, that is *attuned* to the person who loots it. That way, these cannot be sold, traded, etc. They MUST be used or dropped by the person who loots the mob. Make the mob drop several of different types. (I would say one scroll per equipment slot, mayhaps Holy Scroll: Leg Armor Cleansing , or Holy Scroll: Back Scale Cleansing, or some-such)

3). Go to the NPC, get a quest, the character will then ask for the Scroll and the Cursed Equipment. If you have both, you can complete the quest for an Attuned piece of Uncursed (Epic) Equipment, this equipment cannot be traded, sold, etc.

Lore-wise, we could say that the items used in making the armor are very powerful, but carry a curse with them. Istarians a long time ago knew how to uncurse these pieces of equipment, and had magical scrolls with holy magics on them that could remove such curses, but such scrolls were lost when those lands were Blighted. Being that they are items of such holy power, the Aegis would obviously fear those falling into Gifted hands, so the biggest, strongest, baddest Aegis carry these scrolls on their person to protect them and make sure they don't fall into the wrong hands...

[Drevar]

Galem,
Except you forgot the part where you have to go to 7 dungeons--low level, but still 7 dungeons--to get the keys to open the doors along the way to the SoLL

That sword has been improved and now has many options to "boost" it via multiple consumable quest items.

Back to Istaria...there are a couple of areas that could be made "epic" via a loot revamp. The Red Scourge and Research Outpost areas are prime high level hunting, but the rewards aren't worth the trouble currently.

Don't get your brain too tightly wrapped around the concept that "epic" has to mean a single supah bombad boss.

Drev