Upcoming Changes for dragons

[cauri_order]

Why leave an ability that is not useful and replace it with an ability that is?

One of the things people complained about in this thread was that there already is a damage shield ability (Spiked Scales) and another isn't needed. So why give another ability that acts like SoG ... only better?

Balance wise, the only option would be to put the two abilities on linked timers, so people would use one or the other. So wouldn't people just either A) Be confused at having two abilities that mostly replicate one another, or B) Only use one, thus causing "bloat" with the other (unused) one.

The thing is the new shield of gold is not "better" than the current version. It's a different ability in terms of it's scope. Currently - Shield of Gold will mitigate damage until it's duration expires. The only cap being the amount of damage absorbed per hit.

New version - max of 3 hit absorbed still with a damage absorbed cap. However, it now has a new damage shield component!

In terms of survivability, how is that better than the current version of Shield of Gold?

[Velea]

I'm not the one who said it was better. I just said why make a better version when one already exists that needs to be improved and balanced. Because, frankly (and I realize I'm going to lose a lot of popularity in saying this), every example of when it is used thus far sounds like it is an "I win" button. That for those who aren't concerned about the extreme hoard cost, it is used to do things that most players wouldn't try solo. Why should a single ability allow someone to taken on a named mob of their level range? (or even group of abilities.. no throwing 'uberpeds at me as a counter.. they're a different can of worms that doesn't belong in this thread)

The quest example is the closest I've seen to a situation where I can say "Ok, maybe in this case", but the RoP quests are meant to be epic, meant to be things that large groups help with, so those, in my mind, don't "count" as normal game play either.

So I go back to asking why keep this ability AND another one that doubles up on the use (increasing defensive capability for a short period of time) than just fix this ability to be more useful in the defined situation?

[AmonGwareth]

The thing is the new shield of gold is not "better" than the current version.

The thing is... that there is no NEW Shield of Gold. No changes to it have been patched to blight. This was just something I was messing with on Genesis and posted about.

[Vahrokh]

"OMG SoG is so great I used it every fight."

Well, forums are used mostly to whine about things that don't work, hardly to say how good stuff is.

There's even the definite danger that if you gloat about how good something is, it's lined up for a soon nerf.

Anyway, as Deth posted in another thread, the reason I even brought up Shield of Gold in the first place was because in 4 years I've never seen a single post talking about Dragon tactics that mentioned its use

Heh, you may find this fun but yesterday my guild mate invited me to kill the epic dragon and the first thing he tells the dragons to do is to activate GS

Please understand I'm not trying to say anything regarding proposed changes. I am trying to understand under what circumstances players use this ability to hunt under normal conditions.

Case 1: you are farming mithril.
You hear the too much familiar noise. You know it's him. HE is him. You have but a second to slam GS open that you get avalanched.

Naturally, golems also have that neat thing about making you unable to fly off by overweighting you.



Case 2: you are at Elnath / whatever.

You are here to "just" grind your Vet 20 Abomination skulls, 20 Vet ghost vapors and blue Vexator fringes. Sucks? No, it's half of my T5 laircraft set to make, plus some pieces for new teched spells.

You pull your veteran ghost / zombie etc.

Of course, the instant your dragon spell hits, 2 mobs repop near you. WHAM rooted. The trio proceeds happily multistriking and generally owning you. You can't take off. If you are lucky that is, because if an archer aggroed...



Case 3: you tank at ARoP. 'Nuff said.


Case 4: you are spamming gold rage and everything at an epic boss. You gain aggro. Dying becomes totally possible then. "Thank the gods we got some seconds of leeway with GS you think."


Case 5: you suddenly remind that to take off you need time. The "pushback" effect off those 4 mobs interrupting the take off makes you stay down for seconds...

Why leave an ability that is not useful and replace it with an ability that is?

One of the things people complained about in this thread was that there already is a damage shield ability (Spiked Scales) and another isn't needed. So why give another ability that acts like SoG ... only better?

Why do you use silver strike?


- It's cheaper than gold rage yet very effective

- It's one button more to press = more fun



Why would some use silver shield / ward?

- It's cheaper than gold shield yet very effective at non ultra heavy mobs (i.e. pack of 3 wolves silver shield, pack of 5 gold shield).

- It's one button more to press = more fun


Anyway, in closing, if you have so much good will (you do! Else you would not care to want to change our abilities!), what about we sit down to a table and explicitly see what dragons *perceive* they need with direct asking? Of course most things would be unfeasible, but the ones that are feasible, those would be well accepted being those really felt.

[Pharcellus]

Anyway, as Deth posted in another thread, the reason I even brought up Shield of Gold in the first place was because in 4 years I've never seen a single post talking about Dragon tactics that mentioned its use. Almost every other ability has been mentioned, but not that one. Curious, isn't it?

Search is your friend

Besides, what is the harm in *ASKING* players how they use an ability before going in an tinkering with it (and the resultant uproar when the changes are made to sound like they are pretty much "in the can")?

I can assure you it is used and it has been talked about -- lots. It may not be a common ability used, like Gold Rage or Silver Strike, or Ravage, but there are reasons why. Reasons we will gladly answer if you will just ask.

Communications 4tw!

[aine]

The thing is... that there is no NEW Shield of Gold. No changes to it have been patched to blight. This was just something I was messing with on Genesis and posted about.

LOL, and what a can of worms you opened in so doing, Amon! Hehehe.

As for how I use the current (and only) SoG, Velea, (since you asked a bit ago), I will utilize it just prior to facing a named or otherwise "big" (to me) monster that perhaps I should stay away from...but am going after anyway for a quest or because I am in a "mood" (as my family calls them).

I have used it as an "Oh-my-goodness-I-have-to-get-out-of-here-NOW" tactic when overwhelmed by beetles or some such thing, but not as often. (I am usually too busy yelling at the monitor and flinging off my headphones by the time things go south that badly to even remember SoG...or my otherwise ladylike manners. *winks*).

[Vahrokh]

Because, frankly (and I realize I'm going to lose a lot of popularity in saying this), every example of when it is used thus far sounds like it is an "I win" button.

Actually it is a:

- "Not win but survive long enough to get off, at high price".

- "Tank in a group" skill

- "Survive ARoP minibosses". If I lose GS I won't go tank ARoP for anyone for sure, it can get messy as is.

- Way to kill a resource field named. He is level 100, I am 100, ancient, full hoard. Fully teched V, with rare crystals, epics, "overpowered" rare triple teched chest scale. I am *meant* to beat it, and even then, I have to pay so much.

My friend Felicia (she even migrated on Chaos) does not die to Mhedon in quarry craft gear. She was not uber-ped when I played with her (same guild) on Unity, she just heals up.

The quest example is the closest I've seen to a situation where I can say "Ok, maybe in this case", but the RoP quests are meant to be epic, meant to be things that large groups help with, so those, in my mind, don't "count" as normal game play either

If the mob 3 shots the tank, which is the core of the group, what's next? An Helian in caster scales?


Anyway I feel I am pretty much going to talk too much, so I'll stop before getting tiresome.

[Justa Mirage]

Case 6: You forget you are in your crafting scales when you land to take on several mobs *sheepish grin*

[Velea]

Besides, what is the harm in *ASKING* players how they use an ability before going in an tinkering with it (and the resultant uproar when the changes are made to sound like they are pretty much "in the can")?

I can assure you it is used and it has been talked about -- lots. It may not be a common ability used, like Gold Rage or Silver Strike, or Ravage, but there are reasons why. Reasons we will gladly answer if you will just ask.

Communications 4tw!

Umm... Hello? Is this thing really on?

*taps the buttons some more*

Apparently it wasn't....

There wasn't any tinkering even done on test server!

Why do you think we said to Deth (the wonderful Emissary who started this whole mess of a thread in the first place), "Yeah, we're thinking about this. Go ahead and start a discussion."

*sighs* *checks communication channel again* *crosses fingers* Maybe this time it'll get through.

____________________

And for those who have posted further examples, thank you. Again, for me, every bit is helping me see how this skill is currently being used, and thus defining it in my mind a little better. As others have said, it's not one I've personally used in the past, so I honestly did not have anything to base it on but to say "Nope, I don't use it" when the topic first came up.

[Ardorr_regnum]

LOL, and what a can of worms you opened in so doing, Amon! Hehehe.

As for how I use the current (and only) SoG, Velea, (since you asked a bit ago), I will utilize it just prior to facing a named or otherwise "big" (to me) monster that perhaps I should stay away from...but am going after anyway for a quest or because I am in a "mood" (as my family calls them).

I have used it as an "Oh-my-goodness-I-have-to-get-out-of-here-NOW" tactic when overwhelmed by beetles or some such thing, but not as often. (I am usually too busy yelling at the monitor and flinging off my headphones by the time things go south that badly to even remember SoG...or my otherwise ladylike manners. *winks*).

Aye I use gold shield ALOT personally while I'm fighting it uses a lot of hoard but as it is I find it very useful and it has allowed me to survive tough fights with just me and aine, because dragon heal doesn't heal much heh heh need that super defense to survive because I dont always get to party with healing bipeds and a lot of the time I like going out to hunt with just me and aine.

[Antonath]

Umm... Hello? Is this thing really on?

*taps the buttons some more*

Apparently it wasn't....

There wasn't any tinkering even done on test server!

Why do you think we said to Deth (the wonderful Emissary who started this whole mess of a thread in the first place), "Yeah, we're thinking about this. Go ahead and start a discussion."

*sighs* *checks communication channel again* *crosses fingers* Maybe this time it'll get through.

Here's the problem that just occurred, and it's nothing to do with Shield of Gold, searching the forum or anything:

We the players are used to devs from other games, where changes they come up with go live pretty much unaltered, despite massive opposition from the community (it's been known to happen here occasionally as well - see deathpoints, no matter how they've turned out). Even when changes are made, they are minor. The players say "ask our opinion!", then refuse to believe that a dev might actually do that. It's years of cynicism coming to a head.

Hindsight is 20/20, they say, but here's what would probably have been a good idea: this thread should have appeared in the Suggestion forum. Everything in there is taken as wildly improbable and a long way off, even when a dev says "Hmm, good idea - we'll look into it". People suggest things that would be cool, rather than immediately practical. That was exactly the sort of input this thread needed, rather than being perceived as an incoming nerf.

[Pharcellus]

Umm... Hello? Is this thing really on?

*taps the buttons some more*

Apparently it wasn't....

There wasn't any tinkering even done on test server!

Why do you think we said to Deth (the wonderful Emissary who started this whole mess of a thread in the first place), "Yeah, we're thinking about this. Go ahead and start a discussion."

*sighs* *checks communication channel again* *crosses fingers* Maybe this time it'll get through.

Here, let me help you with that...

1) With the way changes are often sprung on the playerbase without much, if any forewarning (nerfs/buffs/etc), let alone player input,
2) With a title of a thread posted by someone semi-official (yeah, emissaries are "just players".. mostly) that says "UPCOMING DRAGON CHANGES", not "Discussion about POTENTIAL changes",
3) Why would we not have reason to assume that these changes were happening, regardless of input like #1 points out?

Honestly, Emissaries should not be the ones soliciting official public input; that should happen from the CM staff and the CM herself. As I was given to understand Emissaries, the role was as a PR interface to other forums / game sites external to this one. Has that changed?

As for the input, if it was wanted as INPUT, then it should have been phrased in the form of a question, don't you think?

[Deth]

Yes I started and I thought it would go a whole another way. I figured every one would yell and scream about the Breath hoard cost, which was the reason I brought it up. I thought people would be "Cool SoG is getting it's hoard cost reduced and we get another damage shield. Maybe I will use it now."

But Vahrokh unless you let devs know that it is used then for all they know it is not. People talk about using other abilities and they are not nerfed but others who might not think about using them in the way you use them get ideas and try new ways of fighting. As I said I have never even looked at the ability unless I A) am about to die and B) think of it. The forums are not only for whining they are for helping other and yes letting the devs know if something is over powered.

I look at a lot of these post and just get the feeling of "Well the medapeds are over powered and this is my ability that lets me solo boss mobs, so don't take away my ability." But I surf all kinds of other boards and hear people saying "It's an ok game but no one ever groups for anything." Which is not a good thing. Some mobs should require groups both for the challenge and for game heath. Class balance has to start some where and Amon looked at the Dragons being one of the least polished classes and having the highest player numbers.

It's sucks being the first under the balancing knife but it has to start some where. I would guess that other classes will see the knife just as hard and maybe harder then we dragons will. It will not be a fast process I am sure or may not even start so but some one has to be the first. But for the health of the game things like this are going to have to happen.

Now I am not saying we should lay down and take it but we have to understand take a step back and reply with reason and thought not emotion and self interest.

Edit: Pharcellus so you here are the Responsibilities. I underlined what should apply here. I am sorry if I mis-named the thread. When Amon posted that I was allowed to post about what was upcoming. He said that it was in so it was OK to post about it. I made the mistake not making a difference between it was Blight or the internal server. But you as a player should know that if you have not seen it on Blight test notes that it is not set in stone and by "Upcoming "what ever class" change", with out "Blight Notes" that some one might want your thoughts on this. Maybe that they are giving you a heads up. At least that is what I would think but I am strange. /9->


Responsibilities:

* Emissaries are active members of the playing community. This means that they maintain an active forum account and game subscription.

* Emissaries read the forums regularly and report posts to the proper developer should an issue arise that requires developer feedback. They also communicate with the players on items currently in development, and maintain an internal “known issues” list so that they can communicate with players the direction the game is going in the future.

* Emissaries help to test for bugs in new content, verify bug reports, and summarize player feedback about the game through frequent reports on an internal forum set up for Emissaries. While it is not required that Emissaries play on the Blight shard, it is expected that Emissaries have at least one copy of their character on the Blight shard that can be used for testing purposes.

* Emissaries also help build the Knowledge Base portion of the website. They assist in knowing what questions are frequently asked and how to answer those questions

[Pharcellus]

Now I am not saying we should lay down and take it but we have to understand take a step back and reply with reason and thought not emotion and self interest.

I think we are (mostly) being quite reasonable about it, actually. I am ALWAYS for balance and changes that need to be made. I've got the posting history to prove it (minus the "deletionist history" days of EI). That said, it in no way invalidates the contention that communications and developer attitudes towards players need more effort and care.

Edit: Pharcellus so you here are the Responsibilities. I underlined what should apply here. I am sorry if I mis-named the thread. When Amon posted that I was allowed to post about what was upcoming. He said that it was in so it was OK to post about it. I made the mistake not making a difference between it was Blight or the internal server. But you as a player should know that if you have not seen it on Blight test notes that it is not set in stone and by "Upcoming "what ever class" change", with out "Blight Notes" that some one might want your thoughts on this. Maybe that they are giving you a heads up. At least that is what I would think but I am strange. /9->

The words "Upcoming Changes" in no way imply a request for input, Deth. It connotes that something is coming, much as in an inevitability. That's how we see it, and it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with which server it shows up on or what patch notes say. Many changes have made it from the developers' mind all the way to live before the ink was even dry on the patch notes.

Now, you may be able to find some way to rationalize this yourself, and that's fine. However, *most* people, as this thread proves, are going to take the words as what they mean in the most common usage.

It appears I was wrong about emissaries, to a point. However, I stand by what I said. The CM and her team need to be a lot more proactive about these things. If Emissaries are going to be part of the CM team that handles player input and feedback, they definitely need some training to that effect.

[Favoran]

My combat strategy rarely calls for an ability such as Shield of Gold. I don't take on enough enemies at one time, preferring to stick with only as many as I can handle then waiting to fully heal (and let my abilities recover). Not to mention that I'm really not much of a fighter anyways. I've probably used GS... oh, twice. I blame that partly on the fact that I never have anything to fight worth of the ability, and partly because I don't have the hoard to burn when I could avoid using GS altogether by flying away and healing. I wince every time I use Gold Strike; I'm not about to use GS everywhere I go. However, it has saved my life a few times, and I've seen it greatly benefit other players. I don't think it should be changed to a 3-hit shield. I do like the sound of reducing the hoard cost, however.

Now, an ability like Shield of Silver (or whatever it'd be called) would be really nice. It'd allow me to take on stronger mobs safer, without needing to be overly concerned about my hoard level. I still don't think I'd personally use it a whole lot, but it's really nice to have the option there just in case it's needed. I'm all for more abilities.

[Deth]

Pharcellus Sorry I did not mean to point the taking a step back to be pointed at you or anyone. No it does not invalidate it and it can go both ways.

As I said that is bad wording on my part I understand that and will try to word things better in the future. I do something have a problem translating things from my head down to paper and I understand what I think I am saying sometimes does not come out quite as I mean it. Things may be set in stone from Devs mind to Live, but to me if I see a player volunteer saying "Hey this is coming." I am going to start looking for the blight notes and or asking him where he got the word from.

A couple of the reasons I posted this was that I hated the old IRC Dev dribble of info. So I feel if they will let me post upcoming changes I will so people know about them and can talk about them like is happening here. I also remember the problems with the old focus group, that is the main reason I asked right way can I tell my status. I wanted it know that I was in the group and that I would pass on info both way.

As to training I would gladly take any training offered as I want to help the game and help the community. But I would ask if you would still like to talk about this that we move it to another thread so we can get this one back on topic.

[Creme]

Umm... Hello? Is this thing really on?

*taps the buttons some more*

Apparently it wasn't....

There wasn't any tinkering even done on test server!

Why do you think we said to Deth (the wonderful Emissary who started this whole mess of a thread in the first place), "Yeah, we're thinking about this. Go ahead and start a discussion."

*sighs* *checks communication channel again* *crosses fingers* Maybe this time it'll get through.

It was actually discussed in Chaos Dragon channel the evening before any post appeared.

I know when I saw the discussion, players were saying it was coming out in delta 142. I mentioned at the time that I saw NO patch notes revealing this change, only to find that a developer had been talking about it on Dragon chat. I joined the channel late so I don't know what precisely was said, but it was being talked about as a 3-strikes and you're out/reduced hoard cost/faster recycle/damage shield component. The players that were part of the discussion did make it sound like it was a done-deal.

[Tcei]

For me I really have no opinion about SoG, it's much like drain strike is/was, a totaly useless skill that only sat on one of my bars on the off chance I could ever find a use for it. So ultimately I have no opinion on wether it should change or not. As for the faction breaths, Lan is high enough to get the quest, but not quite high enough to kill the mobs needed to finish it.

I am really currious tho to hear if there's plans to change other combat abilities, more spacificaly those that arent adult/ancient only like SoG and the faction breaths. My main consern as I've said in many many other threads is for the lower levels who cant farm the Ice Beetles and Dire Wolves yet.

[cauri_order]

It's not just giant ice beetles that drop hoard like candy, virtually all beetle type mobs do the same. For a tier 2 hatchilng, spend a couple of hours munching on the grass beetles near Bristugo - you'll come out ahead hoard-wise.

[Ashuran]

That's true, there's just a bit of an aesthetic issue I have with almost everything I do having to require hoard burn. Instead of turning all our current abilities to hoard use, why not make a more powerful version of the ones you want to change (Breath of Ice to Breath of Ice 2, or Breath of Ice Burst, etc.) and have the new version cost hoard, rather than removing the old entirely... that way one could choose to use the weaker version, or the more powerful version, as their personal preference or situation warranted.

Both abilities could even be put on the same timer, to avoid making dragons too powerful by giving them too many abilities they can use in one run.

Oh, and if you cant kill ice beetles or dire wolves, try lower level beetles and wolves, they still seem to have a pretty good hoardables drop rate.