Stand Against Darkness shouldn't stack with Boar's Rage

[IvyMindFlayer]

I honestly don't think Stand Against Darkness should stack with Boar's Rage (gained from using a BHM). The Berserker Rage was changed a long time to not stack. Either make both stackable (not advised) or make Stand Against Darkness not stack with Boar's Rage anymore. Seeing 10k crits is just rediculous.

[Silverblaze]

takes a lot of work to get a crit even close to that good.

I've seen a crit well over 10K btw...heard of one around 36K.

zerker rage...works on all mobs...SAD (stand against darkness) works on a small percentage...undead.

I strongly disagree with your logic and opinion, but I won;t change your mind, simply posting the opposite viewpoint.

[IvyMindFlayer]

Bottom line is both would only stack a small % of the time, namely for 50 secs every 20 minutes. Everybody and their brother is or has a 100 pally now. Why is that? Oh yeah a pally gets access to all the healing spells, enhance buffs, surges, oh AND they get to use Stand Against Darkness and have it stack with their Boar's Rage.

Now lets compare to a Berserker who only gets to use Improved Revit and Revit and raises... oh ya we also get a debuff when we use our zerker rage. Basically pallies are way to OP in certain situations now. What do you care if a Berserker can kill a golem, wolf, or *gasps* undead once every 20 mins? So either let them both stack or not. Maybe then we will see more Berserkers running around instead of the cookie cutter pallies for melee classes.

[IvyMindFlayer]

Oh I also forgot to mention that Pallies get all the melee abilities and their highest ranks Melee Flurry III, etc. They also get to cast Dark Cyclone, Ethereal Parax, etc.

So yes when you compare Stand Against Darkness in a vacuum to zerkers rage it might appear that it only benefit a smaller % than a zerkers rage, but zerkers rage is all a Berserker gets to use. We have no access to any epic spells, can't cast ethereal parax, and our main ability doesn't stack with an item.

[Silverblaze]

pallys only get revitalizes.

Warriors are in the same boat as zerkers. No casting...don't play it as your main.

Heroism stacks with Boar's Rage...thast a warrior only ability.

You sound very very biased.

I don't have paladin to 100. I do have zerker to 100.

Its a good class. Classes aren't balanced. Look at ranged classes, spearman...straight up monk. Not as good as some othes.

Thats what needs fixed. Asking to nerf something because a class you don't have has an ability you don't is unbecoming. I'm not trying to be mean...really I'm not, but you seriously have to try looking at this from another point of view.

[IvyMindFlayer]

So Heroism stacks but you don't think Zerker Rage should? So basically every melee class has an ability that stacks with Boar's Rage except for Berserkers is what you are trying to say.

I will admit to being biased. I am a Berserker (probably one of the very few mains now) and I would love to have the big crits like other classes. I also don't think any 125%+ damaging ability should stack with boar's rage. I feel it should be all or nothing for consistency. So my suggestion is either a) change Berserker rage back b) change stand against darkness to not stack or c) do a class revamp and even some of these things out.

As I was quoted don't look at it as a nerf look at it as a "FIX".

[Silverblaze]

Sometimes you have to look at the class you choose for your main and say...this isnt working.

I wanted to play warrior as my main. It doesnt work. It plain doesnt. Just like scout doesnt.

With a high rating, you are short changing yourself by limiting your ability to cast as well as melee.

I'm not saying some changes arent in order to some classes, but... I'm not sure this is gonna change, or that it should.

It is really coming off as "my school isn't as good as this class, make that class worse or mine better." At least thats what it looks like ot me. I'm sure others might see it hat way also.

Consider this: I'm sure no one plays scout over elar or ranger...

[Vahrokh]

Yesterday I learned how by stacking "proper" classes, a consummable and BHM you can down an epic boss in 30 seconds.

This may not relate to the topic but I don't find any other definition than "********" that the game allows for it.

*** And triple vengeance teched scale is removed from game because of it being "overpowered"? ***

[Ahael]

Well, I have to agree with Vahrokh's conclusion here...

[GalemThawn]

Here's my opinion on the BHM.
I don't have one. Would I like one? Sure.
Does it affect me not having one? No, it doesn't.

The only time that I would be affected by not having a BHM is if I was in direct competition against another player for a specific mob. The mob spawns, we both begin attacking, he with a BHM, me without, I am at an extreme disadvantage.

However, without the direct competition, BHM doesn't affect me.
Let it stack with nothing or everything, as the Devs see fit to balance it.

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

*** And triple vengeance teched scale is removed from game because of it being "overpowered"? ***

Well, I have to agree with Vahrokh's conclusion here...

this is not true vakh, you are being over-emotional
its not removed from game.
you do still have a working normal tripple vengeance scale right?

you realize you are talking about bhm like its not ''removed from game'' as you call it?

i dont want to offend anyone, but who is actually hurt here?
only those who dont have tripple tecced scales yet?
the rest dont have a right to complain i think

as for a tec being applyable only once its no more then fair, it happend with the other tecs too but thats allready being discussed in another thread.

back on topic: im sad for the zerker rage not working with bhm, cause i love the zerker class.. i would untie its timer with bhm since zerkers cant use valkors bloodsword anyway needed for this insane dmg.

<synical mode>
making more nerfs i would wait with if i was the devs... people are a bit over-emotional allready. maby wait 18 years even.
</synical mode>

as the Devs see fit to balance it.

right

[Vahrokh]

Here's my opinion on the BHM.
I don't have one. Would I like one? Sure.
Does it affect me not having one? No, it doesn't.

The only time that I would be affected by not having a BHM is if I was in direct competition against another player for a specific mob. The mob spawns, we both begin attacking, he with a BHM, me without, I am at an extreme disadvantage.

However, without the direct competition, BHM doesn't affect me.
Let it stack with nothing or everything, as the Devs see fit to balance it.

It's not about BHM. It's about that with a "rigged" setup you can stack an avalanche of damage. Just yesterday in guild chat they were talking about two guys downing 153k worth of boss in about 30 seconds, it means something like 2555 damage per second on a single player can be achieved. It's equivalent of having a player able to kill one level 90 mob every second. Now, I am a "just returned" dragon player and not a biped, so I can't really comment wether these amounts of damage are insane or not, but they don't look small to the uneducated eye.

[Vahrokh]

its not removed from game.
you do still have a working normal tripple vengeance scale right?

You talk like I read on the WoW forums: "I have it good hence the game is fine".

I have it good and have the scale... but I don't think this automatically makes the game fine, what about all those who are not as lucky as me?
Am I entitled to talk off a non selfish point of view caring only of me, me, ME? I like to walk in other people's shoes, and evaluate all the various implications, on everyone, from the 2004 maxed dragon (me) to the "yesterday dinged adult" new guy.

you realize you are talking about bhm like its not ''removed from game'' as you call it?

You do the same mistake of above and believe on some holy crusade off mine against BHM. Nope, I actually have one on my alt. Since I am not into min maxing its usage, to me it's a nice burst every X time, like the vengeance scale is another nice burst every X time. But I am not stacking the character to get multiple thousands attacks per hit because in my humble opinion, it'd be a slap in the face of those who don't have it.

And what about the game developers? They are pulling their hairs thinking how to make encounters balanced both for "human" players and those who can decimate content in a fraction of time.

BHM is but a tiny detail in an overall "in need of review" number of game features.

Features that say how it's just worse to be warrior or monk and going cookie cutter yields all the advantages instead.
Features that say how going for certain ways you can stack massive features that look really overdone.
I.e. you may gladly accept that a berserker is insane every 20 minutes, the downsides are there. Meanwhile, if I understood Ivy well, you can go other ways you can do better without the downsides.

[Justa Mirage]

I can see the chipped tooth dragon with a slight hillbilly accent, chewing on a maple branch:

"Yep!" pounds on triple PV chest scale "They don't make em' like they used to, nope nope nope!" spits to the side. "It don't come off either. I tell ya' this thing saved ma life many times young whelp, so you're gonna have to live with your single PV scale, and when you grow up, toss it in your hoard."

The "attunement" of certain weapons / armor will only bring about the "haves and have nots" players. That one player that ends up with the BHM when the music stops and everyone grabs a chair except 1.

Someone quoted to me in guild chat, "Those that have the BHM and Triple teched PV scales will separate us old timers from the new players."

I pull out a gnerph bat and everyone is "wow how did you get that..."
It may be a low level weapon, but to a starter character, it is better than a crafted weapon of the same level.

So... those stuck with the BHM masks after being attuned, all other characters the player "Was" passing the mask to, will now probably have to find "other ways" of game play, as they won't have it as a crutch.

Someday "SAD" or other abilities may or may not stack with BHM, it's up to who ever was "stuck" with the BHM to decide if they want to level up so they can combine their attacks with the BHM.

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

You talk like I read on the WoW forums: "I have it good hence the game is fine".
Am I entitled to talk off a non selfish point of view caring only of me, me, ME?

ofcourse you are entitled..

just the thing is that i dont hear people who dont have it being so emotional about it.

every game has its unbalances.
thanks for calling me a wow-talker, i appreciate.
if you didnt jump to conclusion you would have read somwhere else i stated that the game would be better off without this BHM (and tripple PV as well i.m.o.) if it didnt cause loss of subs that is

all im saying is that your response is, well, a bit emotional. and that its not removed from the game as you stated

[Vahrokh]

just the thing is that i dont hear people who dont have it being so emotional about it.

I just quit a game (WoW) I played at the maximum level possible with 3 years of efforts, because it degenerated into a ping pong of senseless buffs and nerfs that are seriously alienating the player base.
Unlike the above game, I love Istaria, I really do. Enough to keep up for all those years, to have paid *as support* since Vi took over EII despite I play just since when the "migrations" started.

I feel entitled to be emo. Moreover in my country we are not "cold" and tend to express with lots of text and hyperbole expressions, I can't really cancel that.

every game has its unbalances.

I don't care of "every" game. They can burn in hell. I care that this game is the best possible.

thanks for calling me a wow-talker, i appreciate.

The "every game has its unbalances", is another sentence that I have seen many a time over there. What can I honestly do if you use those sentences? It's unhealthy to even begin to accept that "it's the way it goes, accept it". What about... no?

if you didnt jump to conclusion you would have read somwhere else i stated that the game would be better off without this BHM (and tripple PV as well i.m.o.)

BHM is fine and the game would be worse without things that make people go "woow!"
The mechanisms that let it (and other) stack to insane results, those are the bad.

No one would honestly care if every X minutes a guy can perform some heroic attacks, the key is when a whole fight supposed to last minutes becomes trivialized by a stacked up "min maxed" setup.

Moreover you keep putting triple teched scales in the same boat. They aren't.
First of all the effects are short, second they are not exploitable to monster size. Yesterday I downed 3 epic mobs. I have my triple teched scale, which impacted maybe at 3% of the whole result, not 40%. The mobs lived for minutes and minutes despite my spamming gold rages and whatever, despite the "imba" scale.

Second, non dragons have the same attacks that dragons have to spend hoard for, strong healing, strong defenses. The scales are a "patch" to deal with us having no defenses but gold shield.

Non dragons stack epics to grow insane and destroy encounters in 1/ 10 of the intended duration.
Dragons stack 3 teched scales to have a procced chance to survive against a pack of wolves special strikes. Somewhat on a different plane.

that its not removed from the game as you stated

My instance of scale is not. The possibility of creating new ones has been removed.


And yes, I am emotional, and don't know how not to be :S

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

ofc you are entitled to emo whenever you feel like it, i didnt ment to offend, just to cool down a bit the conversation

the final thing i want to say about this is that ''epic-stacking'' (multiclassing) is also what kept alot people playing (the non-dragons) because not that many other games have it. you should try it on your biped.. its great fun, finding combos that work together, planning, theorizing and then putting it in actions.

and ofc im not talking just about stand against darkness and bhm, b.t.w. those 2 only get you maby a 3k hit and only on undead, witch my dragon can do also with armour shreds and gold rage (also just 2 things ''stacking'') but on any type of mob

[GalemThawn]

INo one would honestly care if every X minutes a guy can perform some heroic attacks, the key is when a whole fight supposed to last minutes becomes trivialized by a stacked up "min maxed" setup.

Yet some people don't care if the whole fight does last only seconds.

You see, you being able to one-shot kill Valkor is more than extremely impressive, and yes, you are probably a much overpowered. However, unless you are camping Valkor and one-shotting him every spawn without others players getting a chance at him, then your being overpowered really doesn't affect me.

I'm not going to petition the Devs to nerf your school, your items, or anything that you are doing. If anything, I'm going to beg them to reintroduce something that lets me have that kind of power (although if I could one-shot Valkor the game would quickly become boring).

If we want an item or ability, we should petition the Devs on an individual basis for that item/ability (with possible comparisons to other items/abilities) but not ask that they nerf an item/ability that someone else has and we don't.

[Annai]

I think I have to agree with Galem. Being one of the 'peds' that is not over powered (I like my STMD, Druid combo) and not one of the fortunate to own a BHM, I don't really think much about those with it, except to wish maybe to have been able to try one with my Disciple.

Personally, whether I am flamed or not, see this as another subtle way of keeping the ped v. dragon battle going. Each side has its perks, each side has its downsides. I have both a dragon and ped at lvl 100 and can honestly say that there are some things I would much rather fight using my dragon, and some that I would rather fight using my saris. I do not and have never thought that my dragon was underpowered.

In my rambling, I do think that change is difficult, especially something of this magnitude is going to be hard and continuing to go on about it only makes for hurt feelings and misunderstood intentions. There are always going to be those who do and do not have the current uber weapon/tool.. (I can say in the 3 years I have been playing, I have none :P) and that is ok. I can be happy for those that have what makes them stronger, and hope that at some point my characters will get to the point where I can get the next one to be offered.

Thanks for listening, ignore as necessary

[Guaran]

Primal Vengence is Defensive.
Boar's Rage is Offensive.

Primal Vengeance is worthless against spellcasters or ranged weapons. Or even certain mobs where the attack skill is so high that a lowering of strength doesn't help.

Against ANY mob in game, having a BHM to use is a plus.

I kinda agree with Ivy. Let Boar's Rage stack with all or none of the other rages. Although if zerker rage is the only "rage" type ability, then it does make sense why it is like it is. Essentially Zerkers get a free "rage" that is similiar, but not as powerful as Boar's Rage. I don't have Pally yet (oh no you broke the cookie cutter) so I am not 100% sure what Stand Against Darkness is. Perhaps if zerker's rage (since it comes with a cost) could be made a little stronger(closer to Boars rage), yet left as is in regards to stacking with Boars Rage (will not stack), then Zerkers would be all better off, even those without BHM. It would make the class more desireable. This might be a better way to approach this, and to mitigate the fact that the game has finally started to attune the powerful old items. Want to be as powerful as a Boar's rage user? Go enroll in Berzerker school!

Ivy, think of it like this, you get an "Extra" Rage, that no one else gets for being a zerker. Use Boars first, followed by Zerkers. (perhaps I need more explaining into how the timers are linked, if using Boars makes zerker rage time out for 20 minutes, then I could understand the frustration more).