Vengence Scale Tradition

[Tempests]

I am making this post in the hopes that it will be taken as a point of view and or a suggestion, not as an attack nor disparagement. It recently came to my notice that the Vengeance line of scales has been changed to be attuned. I have been told that this is because some think they are too powerful, or because the new owners wish to remove them from the game. I do not know whether either of those are anywhere near true. However, I am very much saddened that this was done in this manner.
The Vengeance scales are very much a tradition in Istaria dating from before the Merger. They have been handed down, and treasured from guildee to guildee, and friend to friend as they are “out grown�. If indeed the number of scales needs to be limited, I would rather the technique/formula be removed, and the scales that exist remain to be handed down in the traditions and lore of Istaria.
These scales are originally manufactured by dragons in Istaria, some of whom no longer play, but are treasured items. Their actual value is low, the attack benefit they offer is a 5% chance, or if triple teched, 3 x 5% chance, still not a 15% chance. Look up your statistics. The fact that this tradition has now been demolished saddens me greatly in a game that we have been told is about the lore and tradition within it.
I do not know if this can be changed. I do not know if it is only me that this change has saddened as it has. I do wish that it could be looked into. I know I received my first Vengeance scale from a friend who had it from another and neither of those players is still in the game. I, in turn, have handed my first scale on to another hatchling, and I have traded to have more scales to give to other hatchlings as they came into guild or just became friends.
Thank you for looking into this matter and treating it with the respect that it is submitted with.
Tempests, playing since Bounty was a shard, not merely a memory

[Shur]

Here Here!

Tripple Vengence scales make little enough negative impact on the game. They rather fill a gap in dragon defenses and lessen the "glass cannon" effect. I can not see why there should be any harm in allowing them to pass from player to player as needed. If there is concern about more being made, fine, keep the new limit on the formula as it is, but don't make the scales that are still out there attune.

[rizo/nawkia]

any scales with vengence eminence and such that were made before the patch arent attuned on equip

only the ones after are

[Tempests]

I will have to double check that, but mine appeared to be attuned. Still, even after the patch, the idea of attuning is still taking away from the tradition.

[Tempests]

And I just checked and my scale is attuned, and was created long before the patch, and has not been removed since the patch.

[LaughingOtter]

I think you will discover differently when you put one on.

Tempests, thank you for taking the time to make a reasoned and constructive post, especially since this is such an emotional issue for many.

The sharing of items and passing on of gear is a great tradition, and I think it's one that helps bring players together to form strong guilds and helpful communities. Unfortunately, it's also a major contributer to the currently broken economy in the game, and oftentimes it makes life harder for the new crafters. Why pay someone to make an item new for you when your guild hands you everything you need from a stockpile of gear used by older players? How does the new crafter compete against free sets of teched out gear, passed down year after year?

Attuning scales with the dragon techs on them wasn't a decision made lightly. Nobody on the team enjoyed making this change and we knew it wasn't going to be popular, but we went forward with it because we felt that it would be the best thing for the game as a whole in the long run.

I'm sorry that these scales can't be part of that tradition any more, but it's always possible that new gifts will evolve to replace them. It's hard to say what the future might hold.

Once again, thank you for taking the time to create such a constructive and heartfelt post. I only wish that our answer could be different.

[Tempests]

laughing otter, thank you.
I did take off my scale and put on another of my scales and it still says attuned. My triple vengeance scale is attuned, my others are not.
I don't understand about the economy, nor how a tradition such as handing down a special scale can effect the economy, especially when only one or two dragons who currently play have that tech anyway so it isn't taking away from new crafters in the least. I do know that I tend to make scales and spells for free, as do most of my friends, perhaps a carry over from the old way as we never saw a need for coin. If the comps are difficult to find, of course, then we might charge for the comps, but there really has never been a need for money, and I'm not really certain why having money makes a game better. However, as coinage was not what my post was about, and not something I understand, I will leave that subject and just refer back to my sadness at the loss of a tradition.
Again, thank you.

[Vaz]

Why not cut to the point and implement item decay? Preferably a system where items only decay through use, like Blighted items, but with limited or no recharge/repair. There could be techniques to increase durability (the time it takes to wear out) though, maybe. This would:

- Fix the economy to an extent.
- Enable people to pass things on and share things around but only for a while.
- Solve the imbalances created by no-longer-available-but-still-usable items, techniques, etc., because if they're used, eventually they'll wear out and be gone. If they have sentimental value, they won't be used.
- Make crafting and crafters more useful and important. Without item decay, Istaria will only ever have half a crafting system.

When this has been brought up before, one of the protests was that the population isn't big enough to supply the demand that would be created. I doubt that. With proper balancing of the decay rate, it could work fine. The population, even as small as it is, even on Order, is too big to support a system that lacks decay.

[Shian]

You can't implement item decay after the game has been out for four years. That causes massive protest and many lost subs no matter how good it is for the economy. I've seen it done.

Besides would you be interested in having to get blue vexator fringes every 3 weeks because your scales fall off?

[Takora Drakan]

Item decay doesnt mean you scales falls off mostly, when it reaches simply 0% you wont get benefits until a crafter makes a repair kit and gets fully recharged to 100%. So you wont loose your hard hunted scales. And crafter have a new income. Repair kits.

I've seen it in Vanguard for example, I mean i would be pretty pissed if my epic item that I got would simply fall to dust, but it doesnt, i just need to repair it and all is fine again.

[Cerjar]

You can implement item decay even after 4 years. Its just the question on how long items can be used till they need a repair. Tier VI Items will need to have decay before they get introduced, then you can introduce the decay for lower tiers as well.

And item decay is in the game anyway: Blighted Items decay on use in fights. I like the idea with repair kits, so you can deal trough the consigners.

Item decay is not only needed for economy, this would also be a way to get rid of stuff like the BM.

[Steelclaw]

The attune-on-equip left me wondering what the motive is too. I don't see much of an impact (economy-wise) in sharing the remaining triple-teched (or double-teched) scales that can no longer be created.

Unfortunately, it's also a major contributer to the currently broken economy in the game ... How does the new crafter compete against free sets of teched out gear, passed down year after year?

Assuming the intent is to help the new crafters, then perhaps the wrong items are being attuned -- no 'new' crafter is going to have those special techs. The ones most likely to be possessed by a new crafter are the 'common' adventure and stat techs, especially the tier 1-3 ones, which can be purchased with the overabundance of imperial bounty markers. If the goal is to create a demand that new crafters can fill, it's going to be items with those techs. (Of course, that causes all sorts of problems with trying to store said items in structures.)

Right now, attuning items with the special dragon techs strongly favors the very few (and only those few) that have those techs scribed -- and I don't think any of them would qualify as 'new'.

Unless... is this a hint that the special dragon techs will be re-released such that new crafters can create chest scales with them?

[Takora Drakan]

Right now, attuning items with the special dragon techs strongly favors the very few (and only those few) that have those techs scribed -- and I don't think any of them would qualify as 'new'.

It favors only these who have all 3 chest scale techs scribed. No one wantssa chest scale with only 1 time PV on it, because the proc chance it too low. And besides you didnt make anyway money with that techs, because I, myself, required only that the people who wanted a triple pv to bring me the ress and components. It's only a 5 sec work for me to craft it, so why should i take horrend sums for it?

[Vahrokh]

any scales with vengence eminence and such that were made before the patch arent attuned on equip

This clearly explains why my 2005 scale is attuned to me. Oh wait...

I think you will discover differently when you put one on.

Tempests, thank you for taking the time to make a reasoned and constructive post, especially since this is such an emotional issue for many.

The sharing of items and passing on of gear is a great tradition, and I think it's one that helps bring players together to form strong guilds and helpful communities. Unfortunately, it's also a major contributer to the currently broken economy in the game, and oftentimes it makes life harder for the new crafters. Why pay someone to make an item new for you when your guild hands you everything you need from a stockpile of gear used by older players? How does the new crafter compete against free sets of teched out gear, passed down year after year?

Attuning scales with the dragon techs on them wasn't a decision made lightly. Nobody on the team enjoyed making this change and we knew it wasn't going to be popular, but we went forward with it because we felt that it would be the best thing for the game as a whole in the long run.

I'm sorry that these scales can't be part of that tradition any more, but it's always possible that new gifts will evolve to replace them. It's hard to say what the future might hold.

The issue is two fold.

The first is about being able to "pass" stuff to new players, the second about the specific tech at hand.

I agree on making stuff bound on use, but with the "old" population we have on the server, it has about zero impact on the whole, immense, stocks of every tier items or every school possible that every guild got.

I mean, we can't pass a chest scale. Big deal, we can pass every tool, every weapon, every craft set, every combat set of every tier.

Have a guess, what are the single items in game worth a copper? Construction blocks and basic pre-processed resources (orbs, bricks...).
All the rest is "rotten" and devalued to "free", like our chest scale.

So, where is the rationale behind:

- making the items (maybe) 3 dragons per server can craft nerfed, and not the billion common use everything else?

- making the items 3 dragons per server can craft bound on use, and not the billion common use everything else?

Where is the bind on use on tools? On cargo gear? On weapons?

My alt is a biped, with several craft classes. He could never sell anything in his life, everything is free including triple teched V tier V items of every possible kind.
If it had been a new player, it'd be exactly in the same situation.

Why don't you make *every* crafted item bind on use to make it fair for my alt and the new players, then?
Or a compromise like I.e. non teched / socketed items keep the current "freedom of trading" while the teched items all become bind on use?

What is the rationale about nerfing the triple "stackability" without compensating for the meager proc rate? So far, with 5%, it's as useful as one of a billion crystals you pawn or hoard because with 5% proc rate they are basically worthless.
"Triple tech it with different things, vengeance, eminence...". Too bad, I know of only Guaran able to do that, not sure there's anyone else left in game that can. Basically, balancing a game about the most important dragon chest techs around having Guaran keep playing?

Why not cut to the point and implement item decay? Preferably a system where items only decay through use, like Blighted items, but with limited or no recharge/repair. There could be techniques to increase durability (the time it takes to wear out) though, maybe. This would:

I'd hate this thing and would quit the game. See why noone cares of Blighted items? Because they can't stay and people cannot be arsed to live to upkeep decaying stuff.
At the same time it won't fix the passing over of items. Wear a set, level a school, put it off. 199 more people able to pass it and use it to go...

Instead, having the Istaria "decay" system with "limited or no recharge" is a straight nerf to crafters. I have to swap craft scale sets dozens times a day and then I'd end up with a broken set every few days. Broken set costed me 20 Blue Vex Fringes, 20 Vet Abom Chest Skulls etc.

[Justa Mirage]

LO, I think the "failing economy" is a weak pull for a reason, honestly.

There is "no economy" in the game, save the food and potions people buy, or an occasional crafted disk, or special armor request.

As several posters have noted, we pass down entire sets of teched armor as we outgrow them, one triple teched chest scale is not going to restart the economy of crafting dragon scales.

I agree that new ones should not be triple teched, as per the rules of not being able to put the same tech on any equipment twice (or 3 times) but...

I don't see why the existing 3xPV scales should be attuned, but I guess the real reason is, "The BHM is being attuned so no one can pass it around, so in fairness the 3xPV scales should be attuned too."

It's just a chest scale (unless there is something we don't know about them that makes it over balanced)

[LaughingOtter]

OK, so maybe I skipped a few steps in my explanation...

Yes, we could make all teched items attune on equip, and maybe they should have been that way from the beginning. That kind of change, though, is very hard to implement four years into a game.

Rare or powerful items are a different matter. Generally, once a player has such an item, they usually hang on to it. When they don't, however, that item can give the recipient huge advantages over others with similar levels and time played. Those advantages are, in all fairness, one of the reasons for passing on that piece of gear.

PV and the other dragon techs are powerful. No other techs in the game can have as much direct impact on combat effectiveness as they can. Seriously, if they weren't effective, they wouldn't be considered mandatory techs for a good set of combat scales, and this change wouldn't be any sort of issue.

A triple-teched PV scale is, in my opinion, second only to the BHM in terms of the level of power it gives to a character in combat. If PV lands, your foe is effectively helpless. It doesn't get much better than that.

Powerful items like that have to be attuned once they are used, for the long term good of the game. What I should have said in my last post is that, as bad as legacy teched gear is for the economy, legacy rares are even worse. The aspiring crafter I spoke of could eventually get to the point of being able to make some coin by crafting custom gear and such, but nothing they do would enable them to compete against a legacy rare item.

As I said, we know that making items attuned is unpopular, but it's something that needs to be done for the long-term good of the game. Whether we like doing it or not.

[Vahrokh]

PV and the other dragon techs are powerful. No other techs in the game can have as much direct impact on combat effectiveness as they can. Seriously, if they weren't effective, they wouldn't be considered mandatory techs for a good set of combat scales, and this change wouldn't be any sort of issue.

The scales are insanely powerful in one respect: they fill the "holes" dragons have in their "class" since the beginning of the game.

You'll probably noticed the outcry at even suggesting removing our only (working, and with huge cost) oh crap button.

This is because we don't play with 2008 players grinding their first level 100.
We have the constant example of 150+ rating guild mates etc. that never end to amaze us: AoE stuns, AoE permanent damage shields, healing like primary healers yet superior caster damage. Stacked with multistrikes, magic defenses, defensive buttons, dispells, cleanses, all in one package.

Basically you see an hybrid class (ours) paired with a super-hybrid class that outdoes us on every possible front, plus with no hoard costs.

So, you will find "overpowered" a triple PV scale. It is... compared to dragons without it. But if we group, we are still outdone up to seven times in damage (see the general forums thread, 2 non dragons can kill 153k of epic mob in below 60 seconds, 7 dragons spamming gold rage take minutes. This also answers about your idea BHM is comparable to 3 PV scales).

You will find "overpowered" a triple stun tech scale. It is... compared to dragons without it. But if we group, what procs more often? Our scales or a neat string of AoE crowd control abilities?

Basically it's true, the 3 teched scales ARE overpowered vs dragons without them.
But can we do, then, not to be totally crushed in our own "hybridism"?

Why is is "yawn" to see a druid/blah/blah solo a satyr isle whole pull? Why do you read of people posting how they solo multiple nameds and extra hard other mobs?

Sure, they spent time to multi-class.

And us, where can we spend time to improve? The 3 teched scales were the one "perk" to go beyond our canned limit we can't improve beyond, even in 100 years of effort.

[Veruliyam]

Item decay doesnt mean you scales falls off mostly, when it reaches simply 0% you wont get benefits until a crafter makes a repair kit and gets fully recharged to 100%. So you wont loose your hard hunted scales. And crafter have a new income. Repair kits.

I've seen it in Vanguard for example, I mean i would be pretty pissed if my epic item that I got would simply fall to dust, but it doesnt, i just need to repair it and all is fine again.

How epic is an epic item that needs repaired?!?

[Takora Drakan]

How epic is an epic item that needs repaired?!?

Well axe needs from time to time sharped or? And like a armor, you need to put out the dents and scratches Nothing lasts forever

[LaughingOtter]

Vahrokh, I tend to agree, personally, with most of what you are saying; however, the differences between dragons & bipeds are a seperate issue. One which, I might point out, we have been taking steps to address recently.

We have been working to fix some long-standing issues with dragons, but we can't fix everything and it's not going to be done overnight. Nor is every change we make going to make you happy. Making these scales attuned is one such decision.

We can't share everything we are working on, but I would simply ask you to consider something: would you rather have the triple-teched PV scales, or would you rather not need them?