About Guild plots and Lair communities

[Zexoin]

After talking about this in the Guild communities proposal discution, I've decided to make a separate thread for this.

As stated there, many of the guild plots (except the master ones) of most of the guild communities are far too small to be of any use.
With the current auction system, a large guild is tempted to own several master plots in order to build the needed facilities for the guildies, and most of the guild plots remain untouched.

I think that, instead of limiting the number of master plots owned by one guild, the guild plots should be enlarged. Indeed, it would be far more convenient for a guild to own most of their plots in the same location, and with larger plots, let's say 60x60 for the regular guild plots, they'd have far enough room to place the guild facilities, and to place the buildings for the plot owner's convenience. This way, the guild would limit itself the number of master plots owned (or at least would be less tempted to buy many of them), and the guild towns would not be ghost towns with only one large plot built.

Also, another point that hasn't been dicussed, is the 4 lair communities.

Istaria seriously lacks in lair-only guild communities. I strongly advise to add more of those, maybe smaller ones, all around Aradoth. There are many places where they could be added (I want a lair in the Barasavian desert ! ). In addition, to allow guilds to own one of those communities in addition to the two biped ones they have, would ensure a guild to provide the needed lairs to its dragons.

[Hraefn]

Seconded. All of it. Would love to see more lair communities that are free of restrictions, save, perhaps, rules violations.

[Adwene]

Definately do need more 'useful' sized plots in the guild ares. 25x25 is just way too small. 40x40 is on the small side, should be very few of these. 60x60 should be the general size of the plots.

As laughingotter said in the last post, waiting another 2-3 months for them to redesign the areas before they do a plot release is not ideal, that probably needs to happen first then they can see what is owned and what isn't so they can work out what they can combine across the shards into the more useful sizes. Right now there is a lot of the smaller plots (on choas) built out by people that don't play anymore, I'd hate those plots to miss a redesign - simply because they are tagged as owned presently.

The whole process will be tricky, and may need to be done in conjunction with talking to the player base on a guild by guild basis. To do that they need active players controlling those plots, not inactive ones.

[Adwene]

I've been thinking about this as I've posting on the other threads.

As a guildkey plot becomes available for reclaim it could be redesigned.

This process would need to be simultaneous across the 3 shards (the major sticking point I believe for any plot changes is that if 1 person in any of the 3 shards owns the plot care has to be taken in the redesign of that plot.)

So,
Step 1: Determine which guild plots are going to come up for sale across all 3 shards (as per the discussion thread).
Step 2: Wipe and redesign those guild areas.
Step 3: Open redesigned areas up for bidding.

This would slow the process of releasing those plots to the server down, but the plots themselves would be more useful and more desirable to the community.

~~~~

Personally, I'm starting to think the way the guildplot system is designed is not ideal. It was a very exciting idea at the time it was introduced (with the merge) however, time as shown that the smaller plots are just not attractive to players.

If I was to redesign the system, I would have guild key plot as being owned by the guild (purchasable by a guildleader, however not counting as a plot for the sake of plot ownership). This plot would *only* have on it a guildhouse, that is permenantly set to guilduse and the plot could not be built on. The plots surrounding the key plot however would be larger and purchasable similar to the existing plots.

I realise such a change would not be easy to implement now. So my step approach is what I would do in the existing situation.

[Amarie Ancalimon]

So I have a question regarding this, and it will help know how to direct the design team:

If the choice is between only having a few plots (say 7 or less) in a community, but those plots are 60*60, is that better than having more plots at a smaller size?

Most guild communties are "land locked" as they are right now, so there is only so much space available to divide in to plots. I'm curious how many people would rather see more of their guild members being able to own in the community (thus perhaps smaller plots) versus how many people would rather have the plots be larger regardless of how many would own in the community.

[Zexoin]

So I have a question regarding this, and it will help know how to direct the design team:

If the choice is between only having a few plots (say 7 or less) in a community, but those plots are 60*60, is that better than having more plots at a smaller size?

Most guild communties are "land locked" as they are right now, so there is only so much space available to divide in to plots. I'm curious how many people would rather see more of their guild members being able to own in the community (thus perhaps smaller plots) versus how many people would rather have the plots be larger regardless of how many would own in the community.

Well, the guild members can find larger plots in non-guild communities, and will buy them instead of buying the guild plots because those are too small.
So, reducing the plot numbers, while increasing their size, would attract some guildies to populate the guild town, but others could find what suit them in other non-guild communities.
In my opinion, quality is more important than quantity.

oh and Amarië, do you think it'd be possible to open new lair-only guild communities ?

[awdz]

So I have a question regarding this, and it will help know how to direct the design team:

If the choice is between only having a few plots (say 7 or less) in a community, but those plots are 60*60, is that better than having more plots at a smaller size?

Most guild communties are "land locked" as they are right now, so there is only so much space available to divide in to plots. I'm curious how many people would rather see more of their guild members being able to own in the community (thus perhaps smaller plots) versus how many people would rather have the plots be larger regardless of how many would own in the community.

We have a number of open subplots because members wanted to buy larger plots and/or plots that are closer to resources. I'd be in favor of the larger but fewer option, and definitely in favor of resources on the "empty" areas of the guild islands.

Please forgive my naivete here, but since most of the guild plots are landlocked, how difficult would it be to just enlarge the islands (and the plots proportionally)?

[gopher65]

It is always better to have a few larger plots than many smaller plots. My guild use to own a Community (shortly after merge), and even though we all jumped at the chance to own those tiny guild plots, we very quickly realized that they were too small to suit our purposes. Eventually we all flitted away to other areas and bought individual plots that were larger enough to be viable.

In short, right now people will only buy guild plots for the large Guild Plot itself, and for the 1 or 2 lairs connected to it. The small plots will stay barren and unused.

[Justa Mirage]

I saw guild plots as the "poor player's ownership program" way back when it started. Players that could not earn the silver and gold they needed to afford a plot, could get a plot for 1sp (what a deal!)

In today's game, the regular, everyday player (non-casual with incentive) will amass enough gold in the game to afford even the largest plot at "Community" prices (not player marked up prices laced with greed.)

The smaller plots around the main plot are just that, incentive for beginner players with little or no cash to actually own property and learn building structures on them. Maybe later, they will sell the plot back to the GM and go for a non-guild plot elsewhere.

Look at Dryart, that place is a ghost town, so is Tishlar. No resources, no near by mobs, nothing. A perfect example of cheap affordable land ownership that is non guild.

[Amarie Ancalimon]

I saw guild plots as something slightly different from what Justa described when I first joined the game, though they very much were that in my mind too. It was a thrill to be able to purchase a "starter plot" in my guilds community for what was essentially nothing.

I also see the guild communties, though, as a town. One plot will have the blacksmith shops, another the jewelry shop, etc. The master plot holds the bank and the guild hall, but that's about it due to the size, granted. Somewhere in the community someone opens up a silo farm, hopefully way in the back, that everyone can use for storage. Someone takes over the role of librarian and puts up a library on their plot to hold formula's and techs. And hopefully there's enough space on each person's plot for a small home. (Note the word "small" in that sentence.)

These areas then become a central community for guild mates to gather and share adventure stories, make new gear for one another, a work center for the guild. If someone wants a "home in the country", away from the hustle and bustle of the guild's town, they purchase a plot elsewhere, either by selling their plot to someone who wants to "live in town", or buying second home.

I've seen guild communities built around this model with plots of the sizes we have now, so I know it works. It takes 8 or 10 people to each have a specific role in the "town", but it does work.

No, I'm not saying it works for everyone. Nor am I saying this is how it "should be", or making ANY statement regarding the size of plots in guild communties at present. I'm just offering my own opinions on how I've seen guild communities work given the sized plots that exist at present.

[gopher65]

I also see the guild communties, though, as a town. One plot will have the blacksmith shops, another the jewelry shop, etc. The master plot holds the bank and the guild hall, but that's about it due to the size, granted. Somewhere in the community someone opens up a silo farm, hopefully way in the back, that everyone can use for storage. Someone takes over the role of librarian and puts up a library on their plot to hold formula's and techs. And hopefully there's enough space on each person's plot for a small home. (Note the word "small" in that sentence.)

That's the way our guild town was set up. Then we realized that those sixteen 25x25 plots were the equivalent of ONE larger plot (remember, area increases by squares so a 100x100 plot is 16 times larger than a 25x25, and therefore that one plot is as big as an entire guild community, not including the master plot). So those 16 people all sold their dinky little plots, and then each of us had an entire guild town on our big plots. (Though mine is actually 79x79)

"Ah," you say, "but those 100x100 plots cost like 12 gold!" Yeah, that's true. To get that 12 gold I'd have to spend like an entire afternoon farming gold . You're right that that is an unreasonable amount of time to spend getting gold for such a large plot. Still... maybe that would be time well spent to have a plot the same size as an entire community.

[Vaz]

"Ah," you say, "but those 100x100 plots cost like 12 gold!" Yeah, that's true. To get that 12 gold I'd have to spend like an entire afternoon farming gold . You're right that that is an unreasonable amount of time to spend getting gold for such a large plot.

Are you being sarcastic?

[Silverblaze]

While I agree with this idea, a very small population uses the forums or read them. This decision effects many and should be discussed on the login page or something to get further input. Such is my belief anyhow.

[Adwene]

I'm definately of the opinion that less plots of a larger size is better. Sure in some of the huge communites keep a few of the smaller sized plots, more for the adventurers or new people that want to store things. However, when I say smaller plots I still mean something like a 40x40 (or even a 25x55 where you have added 2 of the tiny plots together)

Anyone semi serious about crafting will want to spend the time to develop their own larger plot, and really will be looking for something bigger.

Maybe even stagger the pricing, the smaller plots have them at 1sp for the 'new' player. Have all the larger plots at more than that, but at a reduced price compared to those outside of a guild community. Since as people are saying here, the cost of the plot themselves for the most part are not an issue.

As a bored housewife, I wish I had the skills to redesign them for you to show what I mean, I have the time! I wonder if there is any 'map' showing the existing areas in a grid format. If so I could sumbit redesign for you. (I don't currently own a guildplot myself, I have a 100x100 in acul).

[Amarie Ancalimon]

Maybe even stagger the pricing, the smaller plots have them at 1sp for the 'new' player. Have all the larger plots at more than that, but at a reduced price compared to those outside of a guild community. Since as people are saying here, the cost of the plot themselves for the most part are not an issue.

As a bored housewife, I wish I had the skills to redesign them for you to show what I mean, I have the time! I wonder if there is any 'map' showing the existing areas in a grid format. If so I could sumbit redesign for you. (I don't currently own a guildplot myself, I have a 100x100 in acul).

That brings up an interesting point. How would people feel if the larger guild plots cost more than the 'standard' price?

And with all due respect, Adwene, I've done some work on world building recently, and it is not nearly as easy as just "redesigning" them from a map, grid, or anything players can really see. I don't know if you meant to say that it was easy, but redesigning a community correctly is a long process that takes a good deal of development time. And that's with a really great "back end" set of tools.

[Adwene]

I can imagine it would take ages to do the programing side Especially getting it to display off the community plot window! Thats such a nifty feature of them.

[Pharcellus]

So I have a question regarding this, and it will help know how to direct the design team:

If the choice is between only having a few plots (say 7 or less) in a community, but those plots are 60*60, is that better than having more plots at a smaller size?

Yes, because small plots are useless for most people. Even with Guild communities full of plots, only the largest 2-4 will even be considered by any guild members as a "home", even if it is just to benefit the guild.

So, 7 owned large plots vs 20-30 small unowned (and unwanted) ones. That's a no-brainer for me.

[Pharcellus]

I also see the guild communties, though, as a town. One plot will have the blacksmith shops, another the jewelry shop, etc. The master plot holds the bank and the guild hall, but that's about it due to the size, granted. Somewhere in the community someone opens up a silo farm, hopefully way in the back, that everyone can use for storage. Someone takes over the role of librarian and puts up a library on their plot to hold formula's and techs. And hopefully there's enough space on each person's plot for a small home. (Note the word "small" in that sentence.)

Thing is, you get 1 (ONE) plot slot per premium subscription. What do you want to spend it on? A *TINY* little plot in the guild community, away from everything where no one is going to bother visiting anyway, that you can never build anything decent on for yourself? There's not a lot of folks out there who feel all that charitable to donate their plot slot for a guild blacksmith shop.

The problem is that there is too much variance in what you get for your plot slot. It really should be the ability to purchase some amount of land, rather than a single parcel of whatever size is available. Of course, there's not enough land in Istaria for everyone to own 10,000sqm of plot space, but neither does everyone want 10,000sqm of plot space.

I think a lot of it comes down to storage. There just isn't enough in the game to go around. There are too many things to collect, too many things necessary to have present for crafting, too many pieces of equipment that you have to have, and just nowhere to keep them. In the age of terabyte hard drives, it is amazing just how limiting the storage in the game is.

There are thousands of forms and techs, and a T6 library can hold, what, 200? You know how LONG it takes to build a SINGLE T6 library? You know how fast even a semi-active guild can fill the stacks in one T6 library? I'll give you 3 guesses and the first two don't count.

These areas then become a central community for guild mates to gather and share adventure stories, make new gear for one another, a work center for the guild. If someone wants a "home in the country", away from the hustle and bustle of the guild's town, they purchase a plot elsewhere, either by selling their plot to someone who wants to "live in town", or buying second home.

We tried that with our main guild community; it just never came together. Only a handful of people could contribute, and the rest weren't interested in being sequestered off on some Island WAY away from the rest of the world. Very few guilds could ever muster their membership to build those kinds of communities, and in the end, they still ended up turning into desolated ghost towns.

I've seen guild communities built around this model with plots of the sizes we have now, so I know it works. It takes 8 or 10 people to each have a specific role in the "town", but it does work.

Yes, one or two guilds out of a hundred can muster it, but they are not the norm. Most folks want to have their own Tier 6 house and need the storage for themselves.

No, I'm not saying it works for everyone. Nor am I saying this is how it "should be", or making ANY statement regarding the size of plots in guild communties at present. I'm just offering my own opinions on how I've seen guild communities work given the sized plots that exist at present.

It is only how it works for a vanishingly small number of guilds. You can't use those guilds as the rule to judge the effectiveness of the plot system by.

[Pharcellus]

That brings up an interesting point. How would people feel if the larger guild plots cost more than the 'standard' price?

You mean in gold? What is the point? Technically, the money for the guild plots should go to the guild initially, so the GM should be the one to set the price for them.

It is already going to be hard enough to get people to buy guild plots as it is because they are away from EVERYTHING, for the most part. Trading a positive for a negative (which doesn't make much sense anyway) isn't going to make them more attractive.

[Adwene]

You mean in gold? What is the point? Technically, the money for the guild plots should go to the guild initially, so the GM should be the one to set the price for them.

I doubt that they'd be able to add the ability for the key plot holder to set the price and it could easily be abused to prevent the land from being used by anyone else.

One reason to add an increased price to the plots is to prevent brand new players for snapping up prime guild realestate very easily, especially after a recent plot reclaimation. If the guild wants them to have it, its easy to arrange a gift or loan, if they don't, then at least the biggest plots would be somewhat protected by a higher price. Again, it should be a fraction (1/2, 1/5, 1/10 or less) of the value of plots out side of a guild community, because part of the cost of buying a community is the land of the subplots. The cost could be considered more as a 'lease' of the land from the guild.

I've seen guild communities built around this model with plots of the sizes we have now, so I know it works. It takes 8 or 10 people to each have a specific role in the "town", but it does work.

Yes, one or two guilds out of a hundred can muster it, but they are not the norm. Most folks want to have their own Tier 6 house and need the storage for themselves.

It can work, but normally it would a group of close friends or family making it work together, rather than a guild of basically strangers (in a RL sense) playing together.

In my guild, we own 2 of the bigger guild communites (Faith guild, chaos server - Yumi/Myukli). There are a lot of wasted plots because most are too small to be useful. At least one of my guildmates has commented several times that if she could just add the 40x40 plot that is empty to her exisiting plot she'd be very happy. The lack of decent space is what makes people look outside of the community to the larger plots. I know if the plot sizes where decent I'd be tempted to pick up a 2nd plot in the guild community. Right now I'm looking at a lair in the guild community at plot reclaimation - the sizes are pretty standard, and I have a spare subscription and miss my previous lair very much. The plots are too small to be worthwhile to me. (I have a 100x100 in acul.)

Right now, Horizons has a LOT more plots than active players using them. Even on Chaos. Lairs, well to my knowledge there isn't a single free lair on Chaos for sale.