About Guild plots and Lair communities

[Pharcellus]

I doubt that they'd be able to add the ability for the key plot holder to set the price and it could easily be abused to prevent the land from being used by anyone else.

They are able to add any ability to do anything in the game. It's called "software", you can make it do pretty much whatever you want.

The guild plots belong to the GUILD. The GuildMaster(s) control said GUILD. They should have the right to control how Guild community plots are sold as well. They can already be abusive to their members if they want, but then they won't have very many members for very long, so it is a self-correcting phenomenon.

One reason to add an increased price to the plots is to prevent brand new players for snapping up prime guild realestate very easily, especially after a recent plot reclaimation. If the guild wants them to have it, its easy to arrange a gift or loan, if they don't, then at least the biggest plots would be somewhat protected by a higher price. Again, it should be a fraction (1/2, 1/5, 1/10 or less) of the value of plots out side of a guild community, because part of the cost of buying a community is the land of the subplots. The cost could be considered more as a 'lease' of the land from the guild.

Exactly, and giving the GUILDMaster the right to control sales of the plots, it solves that exact problem, for those exact reasons.

It can work, but normally it would a group of close friends or family making it work together, rather than a guild of basically strangers (in a RL sense) playing together.

Yes, which is not the normal or common case for the vast majority of guilds, hence, on average, it doesn't happen.

In my guild, we own 2 of the bigger guild communites (Faith guild, chaos server - Yumi/Myukli). There are a lot of wasted plots because most are too small to be useful.

Yes, we own Miyuki and Penza. Yes, there are a LOT of wasted plots in the majority of guild communities.

Right now, Horizons has a LOT more plots than active players using them. Even on Chaos. Lairs, well to my knowledge there isn't a single free lair on Chaos for sale.

Exactly. Most people don't really want to build a plot, most especially not a large one. Plots are a lot of hassle to build. Lairs, on the other hand, are almost all the same size, which is telling as one major reason why they are so popular vs a biped plot, even with the storage issues.

[Aaelefein]

Well...time to throw a monkey wrench into the thread.

First off, I understand and for the most part agree with a lot of statements that have been made. One of the key ones, can't remember who off the top of my head, mentioned not only all the tools necessary for crafting, but the massive amounts of storage space required to be an effective crafter. Size of a plot is directly proportional to a crafters effectiveness.

Now I didn't see it in this thread, but I have in others and agree...Silo farms are not a pleasant sight. Even when I had a 100x100 plot I had about 30 T2 and a dozen T4 silos...trees, walls and hedges can only hide them so well. Worse of all..I could have used more.

So now a couple questions for the devs...

What is harder on the system (ie lag) the number of structures on a plot, or their bulk/stack capacity? We have food storage silos now that have a stack of four. Maybe more specialized silos for gems (stack 3...a whole tier of gems/silo vs 3 silos), or alchemy silos (maybe with a stack of 5-8...all those powders and stuff...either the stack kills your vault or you use more silos)

Then there's the tools and shops. Again I don't know how the number of shops/tools affect lag, and my idea defaintely won't be as simple or fast to impliment as changing plot sizes...

BUT...

Remembering ideas that were submitted before the dark ages (sale to they-who-shall-not-be-named)...forget furniture for now...that sounds like a nightmare to impliment. But Tools...they are already coded and the art work is done. Whether racial (I think would be better, would allow for restrictions as to what tool(s) could be added) or tiered housing...increase the resources required to build a house based on the number of tools added. (Maybe similiar to adding techs...# of tools vs size/tier (2 tools/tier, etc))

With these ideas, even a small plot can be quite functional and with fewer structures to render I would think it would reduce lag.

Anyways...just another idea I thought might fit in with plot restructuring.

Aaelefein

[Adwene]

Aaelefein, some of your ideas are great and I've often had thoughts myself (especially about the 'gem' silos) of similar but even if they let us have the ability to upgrade our existing structures, the tiny plots are still pretty useless. Not sure if you have actually tried to design a 25x25 plot (I had one in sslanis on the beach once a long long time ago). But there is almost zero room to do anything useful. A small house or guildhall. A few silos. Not much more.

I'm not saying we should get rid of all the 25x25. I'm just saying that there is way way too many of them in the game. They should be a minority and the turn over on those plots should be pretty fast as people upgrade within months to a bigger plot. Having so many of these in guildcommunities which you'd hope be a long term project is wasteful

[Aaelefein]

Aaelefein, some of your ideas are great and I've often had thoughts myself (especially about the 'gem' silos) of similar but even if they let us have the ability to upgrade our existing structures, the tiny plots are still pretty useless. Not sure if you have actually tried to design a 25x25 plot (I had one in sslanis on the beach once a long long time ago). But there is almost zero room to do anything useful. A small house or guildhall. A few silos. Not much more.

I'm not saying we should get rid of all the 25x25. I'm just saying that there is way way too many of them in the game. They should be a minority and the turn over on those plots should be pretty fast as people upgrade within months to a bigger plot. Having so many of these in guildcommunities which you'd hope be a long term project is wasteful

Yes, long ago I had a very small plot...nice water front property too (looked for view vs useability) Managed a house, shop, a couple silos and the ever detestable tents.

Jeweler was my 'big' craft school then...and I could have been happy with that...but it came down to lack of storage space...again. Three however small silos does not make an effective jeweler, but more makes for a messy plot. multi-stack silos could make a huge difference on the effectiveness on even the smallest plots.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I did have another thought...not sure what but something in your post triggered it. That is the main, or 'Master' plot in guild communities. Yeah, having that huge T5 Guild House is nice (Didn't have to build it) but it severly limits the designing and effectiveness of the Master Plot.

In my opinion, the only benefit to the large guild houses is the stack size. More often than not, guild houses are used in the same manner as libraries and I've always considered that the library was poorly planned, and I never understood why there was a limit on them. (1 per tier per plot).

Anyways...don't want to gett off topic too much so I'll stop here.

[Adwene]

Agreed on the libraries, not sure why there is a 1 per plot limit on them. sure you can build 3 different tiers, but the lowest one really becomes a waste of space.

[Vahrokh]

If the choice is between only having a few plots (say 7 or less) in a community, but those plots are 60*60, is that better than having more plots at a smaller size?

It's a trade off you could even check with a software.

I have seen so many "zillion postcard plots" communities with 1 - 3 plots taken and the rest dozen abandoned.

It might be viable to have 7 plots sold vs 1-3 (1 = guild master + 2 bigger plots often found in isles).

In the age of terabyte hard drives, it is amazing just how limiting the storage in the game is.

I might be wrong, but I know how much they paid _1_ server cluster and so I am pretty sure they don't have the funds to buy more recent hardware. We are probably playing on the same 2003 architecture, just with broken pieces replaced over time.

We tried that with our main guild community; it just never came together. Only a handful of people could contribute, and the rest weren't interested in being sequestered off on some Island WAY away from the rest of the world. Very few guilds could ever muster their membership to build those kinds of communities, and in the end, they still ended up turning into desolated ghost towns

I tried the 25x25 postcard plot way, it does not work when every useful building is so big.

The 25x25 only works for pure adventurers with no materials to care for.

As a minus side, many 25x25 plots also happen to be in horrible locations worth nothing of panoramics.


I myself got a 40 x 40 plot in a magnificent place over Parsinia, leaning on the sea. I will even pay 1 more subscription to keep it, just to tell how important can be to be in a nice place for some people.

[aine]

Okay, this is kind of outside the box, and probably not doable...or advisable. Just processing verbally (textually?) here...and maybe by so doing I can spark an idea in someone else's (more fit) brain. (Or at least give you all a good chuckle at my expense. Go ahead, I won't mind...or hear. )

What if...
~Guild properties were reduced in number (3-4 plots) but increased in size (100X100 or whatever)
~Guild plots AND guild properties were purchased by the guild itself (not by individual players who are guild members).
~"Key" Guild plots and regular guild plots are purchased through the GM, but did not count against the GM's land ownership limit

I realize that this could conceivably result in two problems...
1)lessening the number of plots of any sort being available, while at the same time increasing the number of players wanting to buy plots (by opening the option for other plots to those who previously owned guild plots); and
2) necessitating some fashion by which guild funds could be assessed, banked, and protected from abuse.

I also realize that some of you probably know a way to solve those problems. Then again, maybe this is just me dreaming/being silly/showing my naivety.

[Favoran]

2) necessitating some fashion by which guild funds could be assessed, banked, and protected from abuse.

Maybe make a 'Guild Lair Fund' that guild members can donate money into? The only concern would be having certain people not contributing any, therefore causing some members to have to carry the bulk of the cost upon their shoulders.

[Vlisson]

problem is that nobody wants to own a small plot and build 1 thing on it even if it helps/supports the other guild or town plots

you buy a plot to be self-sufficient, and you want to have fun planning and designing your plot and not to place only 1 structure

i would like that a guild plot is only 1 huge plot, but this would take all the fun for the members who dont own the master plot

what benefit should have a guild plot? bigger than a normal plot? be an own sub-community (too less players i fear)

[awdz]

Maybe make a 'Guild Lair Fund' that guild members can donate money into? The only concern would be having certain people not contributing any, therefore causing some members to have to carry the bulk of the cost upon their shoulders.

As opposed to pooled guild storage? Particularly of resources?

[aine]

Maybe make a 'Guild Lair Fund' that guild members can donate money into? The only concern would be having certain people not contributing any, therefore causing some members to have to carry the bulk of the cost upon their shoulders.

Well, to an extent that already happens. Guildmates that own and build up guild plots for the benefit of all guild members instead or building personal space are, in a sense, doing just that. It isn't Silver, but it is allocation and donation of resources.

[Valtur]

Fewer plots that are much larger.

[Firebrand]

Guild communities would need to have fewer but bigger plots. Maybe we would see less empty communities.

But I agree with Amarië, we need small plots for new or causual players. Not everyone needs or wants a 100x100. But then, small plots should be appealling for this kind of players who would be happy to craft a little with enough facilities around without the obligation to be in a guild community.

Here is a suggestion, with a little picture to illustrate (poorly done, but it's enough to understand):




This would be a village built around an Imperial Town Center. The plots would be cheap enough to be bought by new players who would have already a lot of machines near there plots to work (so no need to build them yourself); and why not a Vault Keeper in the Town center. They would have enough room to build a few silos for their craft and a hut to store some equipment. No bonus on machines of course.
So we would have here some plots for new players just to test if they enjoy building them and we would keep bigger plots on guild communities for people who have more ambition.

Make the Town Center broken: that will give the shards new world projects to do.

There are enough empty places around Istaria to build 2 or 3 of these communities or enough ocean to add some islands with them.

Just my 2 coppers.

[awdz]

I actually like that design a lot, especially for guild towns. The reason is that as there is turnover, often a guild suddenly finds itself without one or more key (shops/connie/vault/etc) structures that everyone is accustomed to using.

I don't like the idea of 25x25 plots. I think everyone would prefer a higher minimum size, even around an industrial center; just yesterday I was noting plots 50x50 empty on Order in some towns. The larger size would give folks more room for the decorative/stylistic items like fountains & foliage, as well as storage (does anyone really have enough storage?). Wouldn't it be fun to have a hedge maze on a plot?

[Firebrand]

The idea is to create cheap plots for beginners, let's say around 50 silver coins. With New Trismus and Lesser Aradoth quests, it is not too hard to get. This village is not a guild community.
50x50 should not be cheap, it's already a nice plot.
25x25 is little. But enough to discover how to build a plot or if you are more an adventurer who just wants some room for your weapons and don't want to spend dozens of hours building a plot.
Those plots would not be made to stay forever: if you want a better plot with more advantages, just move, pay the standard price and leave your place for a new beginner who will be happy to find a cheap plot to test what it is.

Several 50x50 plots (or bigger) around an industrial center (main plot) is what a guild community should be in my opinion.

[aine]

Other than placement, perhaps, and more tiny plots (instead of fewer, as most people are saying they prefer) I don't see how this differs from what we already have...

What am I missing?

[gopher65]

What you propose already exists to a large extent in the original imperial communities. Parishina, Dyart, etc.

[Firebrand]

But minimal prices are around 250s. It's too expensive for newcommers and definately not appealing for others. Small plots are also mixed with bigger ones and the trade center is sometimes far from the plots (Harton Valley comes to mind). And not all these old player towns have a trade center.

Of course, this idea is useless if the plots we current have are not resized. We don't need hundreds of small plots all around Istaria, but a few places with them seems ok.
Add 2 or 3 starter player towns with starter plots and get everything else resized especially guild communitiy plots. And get nearly the same effect than...

It was a thrill to be able to purchase a "starter plot" in my guilds community for what was essentially nothing.

... without guild communities. Does it make more sense now?

[Adwene]

Actually it doesn't, Parsinia is pretty good, it has a vault, some trainers, and a pawnbroker from memory. However, it has no Imperial shops ect. I think Morning light has a crafting centre, but no vault/pawnbroker. (Geez its been a while since Ive played out of those old areas). Dryart from memory has no Imperial buildings.

What I like about Firebrands suggestion is that we could build 'new player' communities in clumps with some supporting structures, so they don't need the bigger plots. The vaults, a pawnbroker, and a basic crafting area is provided for them. Its imperial stuff so they won't get any bonuses, but its all there for them. If small clumps of resources can be put around these areas, with mobs and creatures near then all the better, much like parisina is now, but with mostly the tiny plots. It would 'only' take a relatively small amount of redesigning in areas like dryart, the genevia outposts, sable shore to achieve this. (Tho that might mean many, many hours of work on the devs part!)

Tiny plots out side of these specific areas would then over time be redesigned and eliminated.

Guild Communities should be designed around the established players/guilds. There should be *no* tiny plots in them, only a few small plots, and be mostly filled with medium to large plots.

My definations of size, for comparison purposes.
Tiny plot = less than 1000 units of land, largest is roughly a 32x32
Small plot = between 1000-2250 units of land, largest is roughly a 45x45
Medium plot = between 2000-4500 units of land, largest is roughly 65x65
Large plot = between 4000-7500 units of land, largest is roughly 85x85
Huge plot = anything over 7500 units of land, 86x86+

I had a look around one of our guildcommunities. It has 37 plots. 1 Huge plot the key plot. All the rest I think where tiny to small plots by my definations, there might have been 3-4 medium size ones (small mediums tho), I'd have to check to be certain. 1 Lair, which I'm ignoring.

I did a very quick and dirty mental remapping of the area. I came up with 13 plots taking the same space - 1 huge (key), 2 large, 4 medium, 6 small. All the small where clustered near the key plot. The medium-large where further away. Now while 6 was a larger number than what I liked for small plots, in that particular area it meant almost no changes to the landscape (moved 3 roads in my mental map).

EDIT: That will teach me for taking 2 hours to post something, Fire got in first.

[velveeta]

if by imperial buildings you mean resource workstations, parsinia has handy ws near or in the middle of all resource nodes - not in town.