Can we re-assess food and the Death Point duration?

[Adwene]

Adwene,are you saying that you are eating meal A (Appetizer A, Side A, Main A, Dessert A) and then waiting 20 minutes so you can eat A again? Because the system was setup so that you would eat A and by the time you got done with A there was a short delay, but then you could start eating B (Appetizer B, Main B, Side B, Dessert B). And once those four had been completed, you'd be ready to eat A again.

*blush*

Yes I was saying that. Now I know I can remove a DP in 10 mins, I'm a little happier!

[Oakleif]

/removes the Emissary badge for the purpose of this thread so that everyone knows I'm speaking as myself./

one could also easily argue that if a game forces it's players to all follow one particular play style there is a problem... i don't have a problem with being killed, it tells me i need to pay more attention. i do, however, have a problem with being sent to time out for it.

Lets examine these two ideas. Granted, to do so I'm going to look at what is generally considered an appropriate way to let players know they "need to pay more attention". I know you've already said "i don't care about how other games handle their deaths, because i am not playing other games. i am playing this game, how this game handles deaths is what i care about." but in order to have a rational discussion, those other systems are relevant.

Every game, if played well, forces players to follow a particular play style. That's true for massively complex MMORPGs all the way down to tic-tac-toe. If you choose not to play by the particular play style, you end up losing. Now there may be some variations in strategy, and the more complex the game it, the more variations are present and some are more efficient than others, but you still are following a particular play style if you are successful.

Being killed in a MMORPG is an indication that you are playing with either a faulty play style, or picked an inefficient strategy. Either one is an indication that you need to stop and think about what you were doing and make adjustments.

Now, in tic-tac-toe through games as complex as chess, losing the game results in a total reset. Some MMORPGs have made this the death ruleset - referred to as permadeath - and most of those haven't launched. The only successful permadeath model that I know of in a MMORPG is the voluntary acceptance of those rules for certain regions in Everquest. All other MMORPGs have found someway to force a learning curve onto players to get them to adjust their strategy or playstyle, without making death permanent. Possiblities I have seen in other games include combinations of one or more of the following:

• loss of experience including possibly losing levels
• loss of experience but no loss of levels
• total loss of gear
• decay of gear, non-repairable
• decay of gear, repairable
• reduction of stats for set time

Most games have reduction of stats for 5 to 15 minutes plus one or more of the other options, and may or may not allow a corpse run to the dangerous spot that you died in order to alleviate the other penalities (but not the reduction of stats). However, corpse runs just encourage people to repeat the same risky behavior that got them killed the last time while suffering an additional handicap. Yes, the person is actively doing something and not meditating or taking a bio-break, but that something more often than not was either sitting in one place begging for a stealth-enabled character to drag their corpse to a safer location or trying to beat the odds and not die again while suffering the additional handicap.

Istaria has only the reduction of stats as its penalty, and the time of stat reduction is no longer than in other games (and is still the same as before the death point change). The amount of stat reduction was made more severe for larger numbers of recent deaths (high death point totals - low death point totals have the same stat reduction percentage as before), but that percentage can be mitigated by eating food in a tavern. However, all-in-all, Istaria's death penalty is very light and is mostly controllable by the player (pausing to eat food).

I'm sorry this feels like a time-out to you, but the alternatives are all more severe than the system we have now. The system we had before had absolutely no sting, and thus no corrective power.

[velveeta]

thanx oak for being as eloquent as i wish i was

[Shur]

*sigh* i'm not going to bother to argue anymore. I will concede that the points Oakleif has brought up are valid. However, the method of implementation is not, as is obvious from the number of players who have complained.

Either the system can be redressed, or those players and others of like mind will eventually start to leave. Just last night in fact i spoke with a player who has finally had her enough, and is dropping her sub because of it. I have heard second-hand of at least a dozen others who have also done the same.

Unless something is done there will be more including, eventually, myself. I personally am holding out until i actually hear from the devs (rather than wishful-thinking/speculation of other players) that the official policy is going to be to "stick it" to dragons before i walk away for good, but should that day come (or should the devs continue to show no signs otherwise) i, and others, will put up with it as best we can.

[Oakleif]

...until i actually hear from the devs that the official policy is going to be to "stick it" to dragons...

I thought we were talking about the current implementation of the death penalty (5 minutes of reduced stats after each death, time added on to any current timer if you happen to die again that quickly, stats getting a larger reduction for each "recent" death), death points (tracking "recent" deaths with recent being defined as longer time periods as you get more experienced), and eating food to reduce the number of death points? When was this thread about dragons?

Now, death is the result of doing something wrong (poor playstyle, poor strategies, hunting too close to your maximum power curve and having the random number generator throw you a curve ball). Death should have a sting to bring home that you need to reevaluate what you were doing.

However, please note that in this thread, Amon has stated:

I understand your concerns and I want you to know that we are always looking back at the numbers. When we released this change we said we made it harsh because it was easier to "pull back" and make it easier, than to do the reverse. There are some numbers that may need to be tweaked and we appreciate the feedback you are all giving us.

and in the Food to Remove Death Penalty thread in the Suggestions forum:

Well, I can assure everyone here that the system will not be removed. It may be tweaked and we may add more foods that do different things, but its here to stay in one form or another.

I (still with that Emissary badge off) take Amon's statements to mean that they are open to reevaluating the timers for how quickly you can eat food (10 minutes per complete meal, two complete meals in a tavern to remove a death point or four complete meals outside a tavern to remove a death point). They may even be open to reevaluating the cap for what percentage of stat points are removed (currently capped at a loss of 75% of your stats). We are also waiting for the implementation of the garnish system, which will most likely further reduce the death point time remaining per garnished dish. However the death system (outlined in my first paragraph) is here for the foreseeable future.

So, within those parameters, what adjustments would you see as an acceptable level of sting that serves as a corrective deterrent and yet doesn't make you feel like you're being given a "time out"?

[Oakleif]

Oh, and if it would do any good to start coming up with ideas for a dragon "grillmaster" school, I've got some ideas jotted down around here somewhere. Maybe that's where your comment about dragons comes from? That should probably deserve its own thread though, so that we don't derail this discussion.

[Shur]

I thought we were talking about the current implementation of the death penalty (5 minutes of reduced stats after each death, time added on to any current timer if you happen to die again that quickly, stats getting a larger reduction for each "recent" death), death points (tracking "recent" deaths with recent being defined as longer time periods as you get more experienced), and eating food to reduce the number of death points? When was this thread about dragons?

never. that was, indirectly, my point. The current DP system serves, among other things, to throw into relief some of the more glaring inadequacies in dragon game-play, namely the inability to make food and the lack of a place of their own to eat it.
I have been assuming that this, and other shortcomings, will be taken care of at some point. hence my statement. i shall hold out until they are, or until it becomes clear that they won't be.
the DP system alone is not, at the moment, enough to keep me away (but only because i have a guildmate doing his ARoP, and so am taking advantage of an excuse to come back and finish mine)

Now, death is the result of doing something wrong (poor playstyle, poor strategies, hunting too close to your maximum power curve and having the random number generator throw you a curve ball). Death should have a sting to bring home that you need to reevaluate what you were doing.

yes, but that sting should not be so great as to discourage experimentation and testing of one's limits. the game would be no fun if i never took any "risks" in it. but if punishment for taking those risks and falling is over the top, that's no fun either.

So, within those parameters, what adjustments would you see as an acceptable level of sting that serves as a corrective deterrent and yet doesn't make you feel like you're being given a "time out"?

one full meal of the appropriate tier, outside a tavern, removes 70% one death point, keep the current timers and links on foods, cap the natural DP fade rate at 12 hours, and reduce the bottom-end fade to 4 hours, as newer players will be more prone to dieing. this would allow a player to rack up three or four points, at which point the penalty will start to impair ability to play, and then go back and quickly and efficiently eat them off, but not so quickly as they don't have time to reflect on maybe they need to adjust something in their tactics.

why "eaten outside a tavern"? because the tavern is there to boost the rate of DP reduction, not be the standard which you get punished for not using.

[Creme]

Either the system can be redressed, or those players and others of like mind will eventually start to leave. Just last night in fact i spoke with a player who has finally had her enough, and is dropping her sub because of it. I have heard second-hand of at least a dozen others who have also done the same.

I'm hearing of dissatisfaction, not stemming from the death point timer increase, but rather an apprehension regarding the future direction of dragon changes and other perceived "nerfs" plus a whole host of other issues which I will not itemize here.

[Teto Frum]

I accept that new system is here to stay, and despite my feelings towards it am not here to rag on it, its harsh, but oh well.

But game changes should be designed to enhance game play not deter from it. How often do you think someones sitting arround thinking you know what i think ill go sit on a tavern floor for half an hour to an hour, jumping up and down doing aerobics to get rid of something that might have taken 25 seconds to get.

I dont have issues with death points timer, penalties, length or severity, availability of foods is fine on order and pricing is fair.

But i do have a problem with the timers on the foods vs duration removed, theres no positive game play experience wasting this much time eating food.
Especially after hearing faster discs were needed to speed up game play for crafters, then implement a change that grinds hunting to a near standstill.

New system seems very workable if tweeked, which i think is what thread was started about until it got derailed all over the place. And like always a dragon vs biped pissing match. This has nothing to do with dragons or bipeds, this is about not boring players doing something as mundane as eating foods, when theres aegis to slay.

[Velea]

I disagree that there's no positive gameplay experience.

1) It teaches you that what you were doing was outside the strategy and rules of the game, as has been said before. Every game has rules as well as strategy to it. No, that doesn't account for every single death, and I realize that. But in general, if you're following the rules and using good strategy, it should take MUCH more than "25 seconds" of gameplay to get one death point that takes 20 (not 30) minutes to get to.

2) It also gives you an opportunity to socialize with those who are playing the game with you. It's not an MMORPG for nothin.

This is all not the developer talking. This is just me. I have no problem with standing around talking to people for hours at a time, so 20 minutes every few days of game play (which is about as often as I do something stupid and die) isn't that bad to me.

Amon has already said somewhere on one of these many death point threads that the timers are something we can consider.

[awdz]

i think you can find both positive and negative in the long time it takes to consume food, but i think for the average player it is likely a net negative. it is not like a meal in real life, where you experience the pleasure of taste, smell & texture of foods. chatting can be done while running or crafting (or hunting, and though this may cause the dp within 25 sec because you were distracted, i've been jumped by unexpected mobs and killed very quickly at times even when paying close attention to the hunt).

the forced little bit of wait means delay during which it's not worth going elsewhere because you don't have time to do anything substantial, and yet it's a waste to use food outside of a tavern because the benefit is cut in half. this can be extremely frustrating to folks like me who do not have nearly enough time in the land as it is to do what we wish to do.

[Teto Frum]

If you think that its positively affected the game play , thats an opinion no different than mine, your intitled to it.

But after being a paying customer for over three years, telling me that I 1 must not know how to play if i think sitting in a tavern taking up my play time for half an hour to remove something thats common place in online games and not rare if your a hunter, and 2 that i must not have friends to talk too pass the time, lol if anything i talk too much and die more while chatting than hunting, this seems a harsh critique of how i play the game i do pay to play.

Timers need sped up, and others can speak for themselves, but i feel alot more players believe this fact, than the new system has somehow enhanced the gameplay as you state.

[aine]

Absolutely agreed, Teto. In fact, were it a positive change, I doubt that, after a "thanks, devs" post or two this would not be such a hot forums topic this many weeks after the change.

I think the timer should be changed.

[AmonGwareth]

This thread has been beaten into the ground. Both sides have said all that needs to be said. We said we were open to (and will be) looking at lowering the recycle times. Pretty much sums it up I think. Thanks for your input everyone.