When to do the (Adult) Rite of Passage

[Oakleif]

In the Delta 142 thread on the Blight board, the discussion about unfactioning the breath weapon improvements has started a slight diversion. Rather than letting that diversion upset Amon, I thought I'd shift it to here. I'm including the slow slide into the diversion so that people can follow the conversation that has already happened.

In my opinion I don't think that the faction breaths should be available to every dragon. Helians have a longer and harder RoP and higher requirements to complete it as well. I don't really feel its fair that we have to work harder to be the same

I agree that Helian RoP is harder, but I don't see why it's an argument not to have both faction breath. I personally don't like the current Breath of Ice, the new one seems much better.

Well, I just feel that why should Helians have to do more work and meet the higher requirements to be exactly the same?

You are right. RoP should become available only if you are 50 ADV and 50 DCRA and playing since 1 month, not within the first 2-3 days of subscribing. I find the "barely legal" power leveled dragons an insult to the importance and life changing event of becoming adult.

Moreover, Lunus should only be able to complete their RoP with exclusively dragon help. They chose not to consort with Nakas, they pay the fee.

*Blinks* That is an RP issue, I think, and should not be mandated by the game mechanics nor by fellow players. If the quest is available at level 30, then, (advisable or not) IMHO there is nothing wrong with taking it at level 30. I'm not much into power leveling, either, but I don't imagine myself possessed of the right to tell someone else how to play a game. (And, this IS a game...remember?) It is life changing to your pixels...(key word, pixels).

The concept of restricting any quest, including the RoP quest, to those who have played a certain length of time (level notwithstanding) seems inappropriate to me. ("Barely legal" implies that there is, in fact, a "legal" and an "illegal" method...is there one? I may have missed that when reading the game rules).

You pays yer sub, you makes yer choices.

As for a no-naka rule for lunus RoP, that is ridiculous. It may be true that the Helian RoP is harder than the Lunus (I would have no idea, lunus all the way), but that would overbalance things the opposite direction. As my mate says, "lunus might not like humans but they are no fools". (I tend to think the "but" should be replaced with "therefore", hehe).

<snip of on-topic items>

Sorry I have to disagree with [Vahrokh's] statment. Not all people who are lvl 30 when they become adults are power leveled to that point. Lan was 31 when he became an adult, took me around 9 months to get there, while I had planned on waiting till 50 (took me another year to get to that point), EI was in control at the time and I wasnt sure there'd be a game around long enough for me to see that lvl.

The game was designed so that you could become an adult at 30 or 100 its up to you, not other players.

The harassment I received because of this issue is what prompted me to quit playing on Order and start over anew on Chaos. That and the lvl 50 hatchling scale, the way some people talk you'd think that it was the be-all end all of scales that'd last you to lvl 100 and beyond...*grumbles*

Tcei, I'm sorry if you received a more rabid version of these points-to-consider on Order. I know that many dragons get very pushy there.

Heck, my dragon has been lamblasted for saying "Glit'sita nien. Greetings all." on channels other than Dragon chat. ((And yet those same players portray their dragons licking each other or being undead in the name of roleplay. *shudder*)) I'm a Helian dragon: I believe that dragons are the rightful rulers of Istaria but that the lesser races have skills to contribute and should be nutured and taught, and as such, bipeds should be taught to understand our more important tongue, even if they can't speak it well.

My saris has also been raked over the coals when attempting to say "Glit'sita nien" to dragons because *non-dragons shouldn't use the dragon tongue*. Right. Sorry, this saris was taught good manners by his mama, and I know part of that is making the effort to speak the language common in the area you are in. ((RL lesson learned as an exchange student - you are not an ugly american if you make the effort, no matter how poor that effort is.))

So, I'll go out on a limb and antagonize the roleplay nazi's on Order even further by apologizing on their behalf for the actions that led you to leave and go to Chaos. (See I even further antagonized them by characterizing them as roleplay nazi's, and fulfilling Godwin's law. )

Ok, now for my contribution on the topic of when to start the adult Rite of Passage.

When I hear someone ask when they should start the RoP, I mention several things:

1. I recommend all dragons speak to Karane the Historian as soon as possible and further explore the roleplay differences between the Helian and Lunus faction beyond what you picked up from Vladtmordt's quests for the hatchling scales. For gameplay differences, I send them to Ranqthas Clawfoot's guide on GamersInfo.net. This gives you time to begin pondering your path.
2. If you want to become an adult just so you can fly, and you don't care about how that happens, by all means do it as soon as you can. Flight is a great tool, and what seperates dragons from bipeds (who end up being stronger after spending the time to multiclass in several schools).
3. If you want to be a participant in your own growing up, then wait until at least level 45 to start the "Become a True Lunus/Helian" quest. Before then, you need others to do the killing and you're mostly trying to avoid being squished.
4. Yes, strongly consider waiting until after getting your third hatchling scale at level 50 to actually ascend and become an adult. The scales are equivalent to level 80 crafted scales. They are not mandatory however, so look at the stats and come to your own conclusion.

As far as when to start the RoP, I'll vote for whenever you feel like it, as long as you have enough information to make an informed decision.

[Takora Drakan]

I think you opened a can of ugly and evil worms there, let the flame begin

I personally don't care how someone plays, at least if it doesn't intefere me while I play. If you want to get your wings at 30/20, go ahead and be happy. I don't judge anybody when somone get his/her wings. But please dont cry at me if I dont want to help. I am not forced to help anybody if i don't want. Some think if you are Adult/Ancient/Higlvl biped/whatever bug you HAVE to help if they demand it, and if you dont you are just EVIL. It's a game after all and you can play it how you want if it makes you happy, but dont disturb others with your play if they feel annoyed or such.

Ps: Oakleif and others, can you please refrain from using the word nazi in any manner please? Even I am from Austria and not Germany it distrubs me to read that word. We cant do anything about our past but I see that word so often used in the past days that its sad. I hope you won't use that word in the future.

[Oakleif]

Ps: Oakleif and others, can you please refrain from using the word nazi in any manner please? Even I am from Austria and not Germany it distrubs me to read that word. We cant do anything about our past but I see that word so often used in the past days that its sad. I hope you won't use that word in the future.

Sure thing. It was an attempt to keep some humor in the thread. Sorry.

[Takora Drakan]

Sure thing. It was an attempt to keep some humor in the thread. Sorry.

Sorry for further OT, but I dont understand what is so funny about that word. I wonder why the forum doenst even censor that word.

[peladon]

In the Delta 142 thread on the Blight board, the discussion about unfactioning the breath weapon improvements has started a slight diversion. Rather than letting that diversion upset Amon, I thought I'd shift it to here. I'm including the slow slide into the diversion so that people can follow the conversation that has already happened.
.
.
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When I hear someone ask when they should start the RoP, I mention several things:

1. I recommend all dragons speak to Karane the Historian as soon as possible and further explore the roleplay differences between the Helian and Lunus faction beyond what you picked up from Vladtmordt's quests for the hatchling scales. For gameplay differences, I send them to Ranqthas Clawfoot's guide on GamersInfo.net. This gives you time to begin pondering your path.
2. If you want to become an adult just so you can fly, and you don't care about how that happens, by all means do it as soon as you can. Flight is a great tool, and what seperates dragons from bipeds (who end up being stronger after spending the time to multiclass in several schools).
3. If you want to be a participant in your own growing up, then wait until at least level 45 to start the "Become a True Lunus/Helian" quest. Before then, you need others to do the killing and you're mostly trying to avoid being squished.
4. Yes, strongly consider waiting until after getting your third hatchling scale at level 50 to actually ascend and become an adult. The scales are equivalent to level 80 crafted scales. They are not mandatory however, so look at the stats and come to your own conclusion.

As far as when to start the RoP, I'll vote for whenever you feel like it, as long as you have enough information to make an informed decision.

Elder and wise.

There are many voices that speak to a matter such as this. Well do I remember elder Kumu's word of wooden draku...

As there are many words, and each word a breath, and each breath a wind's seed... there are many winds. And the winds wait for all those of wing and scale.

How each chooses to seek those winds... to greet them and to ride... Well and all. Last waking I woke and first sought... that which I sought. Of a flick of the candle I took wing... and sought some other thing. And for why? Heh... BECAUSE I CHOSE.

Each choice we take hath consequence, as doth each one not taken. Thus... to do or not to do hath each their price. To do now or some other tide... to not do ever or for some long candle's burn... we seek our natures even as we craft them, and if that crafting hath different manner for each, why then how else might it be? .

Those that make swift passage see less of that through which they pass. They may find them less knowing of those hills and vales, those clouds and storms, aye, and of those very dreams, than those that walk slow.

Does this make them less of their nature? Mayhap that very race _is_ their nature. Does it make them less able? Less knowing of their skills, mayhap, but more gained in power and might and attribute also...

Those that let the breeze pass them that that they savour its taste, by nature they may set them behind others. Yet is that fault? That there be those Foe or those deeds they may not yet seek?

That a one takes some different path, to my poor wit and mind does not _of_its_own_part_ make them some less, or some more. It makes them... some different. And who might be The Fool to set cavil at difference?.

It is not the maker's path of saw or chisel, claw or fire that marks the maker, or the made. It is, to my poor wit, that made thing itself. That maker.

If judge ye must, if judge ye will... then judge that maker even as they craft their very selves. For they are each not tools or war or craft. That is but a shadow they cast. They are... THAT WHICH THEY ARE.

When ye dance the fields of the Foe... the shadow each casts may give ye early mark of their presence... but if ye judge thy dance of war on that shadowing rather than that Foe's true presence and nature... then most like ye will be the Tavern Keeper's dear friend. And that serves the land little, though the Keeper's coin much.

But each will take the wind of their being as they choose, and that also for how each finds fit to judge. I? Judged I was, and found... Fallen and not fit for my purpose. Who am I then to set judge to others?

Wake. Live. Grow, dance... and ever, always, without pause... BE.

Heh... but that itself is but my stance and the words and thought I choose. If others choose other stance or other thought or other word... then that is as they choose also.


Sephiranoth, called by some ShadowSeeker
Nobody and Nothing ever, save The Five do Feast
A Fool that walks among the Wise

[Raptress]

I don't really understand why people get harassed for being level 30 and adult. I really don't. I would understand if they got powerlevelled there and were adult in a week or something. I'm not a fan of powerlevelling. But if you got yourself to 30 and you can find the help you'll need to kill everything, then fine. The fact remains though, that I do have to warn people that they may get harassed for going before 40, and maybe even between 40 and 50. It's sad, but there it is.


Now, this may not be a good question to ask, as it may be inviting flames, but I feel the need to ask it, as I genuinely do not understand. For those of you who look down upon a level 30 adult, what is it about them that is so disgraceful? Assuming they worked out their own levels and were not powerlevelled, of course.

[Takora Drakan]

Now, this may not be a good question to ask, as it may be inviting flames, but I feel the need to ask it, as I genuinely do not understand. For those of you who look down upon a level 30 adult, what is it about them that is so disgraceful? Assuming they worked out their own levels and were not powerlevelled, of course.

Mostly because as lvl 30 adventurer you cant even hardy hit the RoP mobs, they would mostly one shot you if you dont watch. So you mostly stand aside and watch that you dont get accidently killed i think. (You didnt say anything about the craft lvl so I assume its lvl 20). I even saw lvl 30 adv / lvl 80 craft hatchies do their RoP, but they could do it mostly on their own because of their scales. I pull my not existing hat for that accomplishement.
Another point are the "hatchling scales" that are a part of the history of dragons. They are very powerful at their level with the techs on them. I personally weared my chest scale till lvl 80 because of the nice techs on them.

[Raptress]

Mostly because as lvl 30 adventurer you cant even hardy hit the RoP mobs, they would mostly one shot you if you dont watch. So you mostly stand aside and watch that you dont get accidently killed i think.

If the problem is that you need help to kill things, why then is it not looked down upon to ask for help with things like Seliena, the Shadow Dragon, Esh, etc.? You're going to need help even at level 50.
As for the scales, they are optional. I haven't ever seen anyone get ridiculed for lacking the scales, and it would be quite hard to even know they don't have them if they waited until 50 and simply didn't bother with the scales.

[Tcei]

I agree with what you say Oakleif, and Takora. While I am/was an "early flier", I never hesitate to recommend to newbies that they may want to wait untill 50/50 or so to do their RoP, simply for the fact that they'll be able to actually participate in the fights.
I personally dont mind if others dont want to help an under 50 hatchling, its their right, just as its the hatchlings right to ask, I didnt fuss at those who refused to help me when I did mine because I was under season.

In fact I wasnt even bother by the RP attitudes of the characters about being an under 50 adult, what got to me was the ooc comments. People flat out telling me I dont know how to play because I didnt wait till 50 or I didnt get that scale. The rude tells basically saying Learn too play noob, when I asked an honest question.

One particularly nasty and public argument I had over Dragon channel once was in defense of another early flier who asked for the location of something or other and another player said in a semi RP, and very rude tone, to the effect of if you're an adult you should know where it is, use your map. I shot back saying maybe his map wasnt working right, which it turns out was true. He replied back oocly that by the time you become an adult you should know where everything is anyways, and it just went down hill from there.

Then there's that handful of people who like to tell me that since Im an early flier, IM going to quit soon because Im going to be bored with the game, just like all the other early fliers. I wont say that there arent at least some early fliers do, but do these people ever seriously stop and think that maybe the reason why most of these early fliers who leave the game, leave because of the way the player base treats them? I know of quite afew who've left this game just because of this kind of treatment. How many people have left this game reguardless of age,race,or lvl because they were bored? I bet early fliers are a very small minority of that group.

[Shian]

If the problem is that you need help to kill things, why then is it not looked down upon to ask for help with things like Seliena, the Shadow Dragon, Esh, etc.? You're going to need help even at level 50.

Yes, but the point is that you are not a BURDEN to those helping you by having minimal scales (not even 40) and not enough training points to hit anything. I can see why some refuse to help-because they've had hatchies die in the process as they were obviously not ready and don't want this repeated. I've also heard the term of "being led by the hand" Which is true in some situations like this where others are doing the work for you.

Yes, you will still need help, but at 50 you are much stronger than minimal.

I waited until 50/50/50 and it was a great thrill to be able to take on some of the ROP mobs- like the enslavers on my own. The ROP is one of the most encompassing and enthralling quests in the game-those that want to blaze through it and not adventure- journey through it often come back with an attitude of "This game is so boring!" and leave.

There was an old superstition that those that fly early, leave early and I can name many many more early fliers that are gone than those that have waited.

There's also the deal of adults that are almost straight out of NT and don't know where anything is because they've never bothered to look around as a hatchling. Believe it or not, I've seen many places as a hatchling that adults often overlook. I don't mind telling someone where something is at, but when it's the same dragon over and over, it gives cause to wonder.

The other side of the coin are these and there's a multitude of reasons to go early, hence why a raise on the ROP cap (if ever) I would not support:

-Some RP reason of being hurried (mate is ascending at the same time, IG family reasons)
-Some non-RP reason of being hurried (the hatchie that was doing a presentation on the ROP for a school project)
-This is your upteenth dragon and you just want to hurry it up as the fourth time doing this is rather mundane.
-High crafting level so more scales than normal are worn.

I've also seen others that start the ROP at 30, but do not finish until 50 or 60.

There's really no "right" or "wrong" level to ascend at, but you must wait until you are READY for whatever that means to the person.

[Antonath]

When I started my RoP, I was in the mid-60's for adventuring, and over 90 for craft. I saved up and had a set of T5 scales made for me (Thank you Vahrokh, though I now wish I'd taken you up on the triple-vengeance suggestion ). I waited for several reasons, most of which have already been discussed - the faction chest scales, wanting to actually take part in the fights, etc, but also because I was wondering whether I was really ready, even though I was far in excess of the requirements.

When I came to the first "big" fight of the RoP (the Shard of Faces, I believe), I was rather nervous, expecting to have to try it a few times and earn some death points, maybe even gain a few more levels.

Things did not go how I planned. Between the level difference, my T5 triple-teched armor scales, Spiked Scales VI and the 60's Refreshing Breeze I trounced not only the big bad, but all his little friends as well

I was grinning for the rest of the night. It was the first time I had really felt powerful as a Dragon. That one fight made me feel like I had earned the right to take the Rite and to become an adult. That feeling is something I wouldn't have experienced if I had taken the RoP in my 30's.

I'm not going to say anything against those who take their Rite "early". I can certainly understand the desire to get your wings (although hatchie-glide in the next client may change that a bit). I would, however, caution those who rush into it that they should take every opportunity to enjoy and participate in their RoP, not just be a spectator. I'd hate for people to complete the quest, get their wings at 30(ish), then think "So, this is it until 90?" and stop playing the character.

[Nambroth]

Oaklief,

I have seen some berate others when they are In Character over these issues (such as doing RoP early or peds using the 'dragon tongue', etc). I too think it's wrong and unnecessary to scold any other player (from player to player, not from character to character) of their play style as long as they are following the rules. However, I do expect on a RolePlay enforced server such as Order that some may choose to have their character be offended by such, for whatever RP reasons. It's very important to understand that actions and things said In Character do not necessarily represent the player's views behind the screen.

That said, if someone was scolding you or others out of character for things like that, I understand the frustration and I agree that is unfair.

[Velea]

I've seen it go both ways, Nambroth. The "I'm in character" arguement only goes so far, at least with me. Especially when the "in character" goes totally against official Istarian cannon and lore. And yes, I've seen that too. The use of "in character" to justify your roleplay should fit with the lore/cannon created by the developers.

I've seen such extreme examples that they've felt like bringing the Enterprise in to help save Frodo and Bilbo, type extremes. Sure, you can try to use roleplay to explain anything you want, but if that roleplay doesn't "fit" with the world, the roleplayer next to you has every right to reject what you're saying as absurd and continue to play their character as they choose.

[aine]

Yes! Thank you Velea. I have heard the "I was only RPing" excuse used so many times to excuse truly hateful behavior.

Reminds me of when my sister and I were young, and my sister (possessing sharp mind and tongue alike) made a snarky remark to a little friend. When scolded by Mom, she claimed she was only teasing, (she was just a little thing, and is quite socially accomplished now).

"Many a truth is told in jest" and many a role play, I fear, exposes a person's true feelings. There should be a limit to what it excuses.

<edit> Just want to mention that I am not sure the RoP quest is really the issue here...seems more a social-behavioral matter. If people played politely they would A) try to be less dependent/demanding, B) be accepting of others' choices and/or unwilling to be rude about those they do not agree with. Maybe I am wrong...just starting to look this way to me.

[Nambroth]

I've seen it go both ways, Nambroth. The "I'm in character" arguement only goes so far, at least with me. Especially when the "in character" goes totally against official Istarian cannon and lore. And yes, I've seen that too. The use of "in character" to justify your roleplay should fit with the lore/cannon created by the developers.

I've seen such extreme examples that they've felt like bringing the Enterprise in to help save Frodo and Bilbo, type extremes. Sure, you can try to use roleplay to explain anything you want, but if that roleplay doesn't "fit" with the world, the roleplayer next to you has every right to reject what you're saying as absurd and continue to play their character as they choose.

Oh, no... I agree! Absolutely. It makes me a bit batty when I see others do something totally crazy and non-cannon (saw a Dragonball-Z style fight once, good grief, I wasn't sure if I wanted to laugh or cry! ). But I don't think it's too far fetched to roleplay a dragon that gets his or her scales ruffled over the issues I mentioned, right? o_o

[Oakleif]

No, its just fine to roleplay a dragon getting huffy about a biped using their language, or to reprimand another dragon for teaching it to bipeds. Like all negative comments done in a roleplay fashion, it can be taken too far, and a good sign of that is when the first player starts getting hostile in defense. You (general, not Nambroth specifically) must always keep in mind that 90% of communication is not the words, and all of that is missing so others can easily mistake the "tone" of what you type.

A prime example is the stories related in this thread about "early fliers" having that held against them long after their ascension. That becomes tedious after a while, and leads to bad feelings and possibly people quitting or moving to another server.

EDIT: By the way, while it rankled that dragons harped on my dragon for using dragon speech in channels other than Dragon, I understand their reasoning even if my Helian dragon doesn't agree. Therefore, I make sure that I only do it when I'm open to that roleplay scenario repeating. My bringing the saris into dragon chat and announcing "glitter sitter knee-in" as a mispronounciation was totally roleplay that I was starting to prick their bubbles and expose them to my good-manners or anti-ugly-American perspective, so it was done when I was open to the "correction".

[Raptress]

Yes, but the point is that you are not a BURDEN to those helping you by having minimal scales (not even 40) and not enough training points to hit anything. I can see why some refuse to help-because they've had hatchies die in the process as they were obviously not ready and don't want this repeated. I've also heard the term of "being led by the hand" Which is true in some situations like this where others are doing the work for you.

This is true, but I was more trying to get at not the fact that they need help, but the fact that they got help and completed the RoP at that level. I can understand that it would be frustrating to go out to help a hatchling with a mob only to have them die and have to do it over again, however no one is obligated to help any given hatchling. Some hatchlings might have guildmates or friends who are willing to help them become adults at 30/35 no matter what. I'm not talking about how much of a "burden" they are to those who help them; I'm talking about why they get harassed even after having finished the quest at that level.

The ROP is one of the most encompassing and enthralling quests in the game-those that want to blaze through it and not adventure- journey through it often come back with an attitude of "This game is so boring!" and leave.

There was an old superstition that those that fly early, leave early and I can name many many more early fliers that are gone than those that have waited.

There's also the deal of adults that are almost straight out of NT and don't know where anything is because they've never bothered to look around as a hatchling. Believe it or not, I've seen many places as a hatchling that adults often overlook. I don't mind telling someone where something is at, but when it's the same dragon over and over, it gives cause to wonder.

I believe my first dragon to ascend did it at 38/40 or so. That's relatively early, and I'm still here. While I can see why an early flier may have left early, one must wonder if they would have stayed anyway. These people may have been "Oh my god, this game has flying playable dragons" and then they rushed to adulthood to experience this, perhaps forgiving the game itself for not being a lot of fun to them in the first place. Then once they had their wings, the game itself did become boring because the game itself was not enough to keep that particular player interested. Personally, I find the game a bit more interesting when I -can- fly.

In contrast, the ones who wait probably enjoy the game for what it is. It's harder to get to 50/50 without wings than with them. If one does not enjoy the game in the first place, why make it harder? Overall, my point is that logically the group of early fliers is going to contain many more people that are only playing for the playable dragon (and when I say this, I mean the novelty of it. The only reason I play myself is because I can be a dragon, but I enjoy the game itself as a dragon.), whereas the group of those who wait contain far fewer of these people. Eventually the novelty of being a dragon is going to wear off. I don't know about most of you guys, but nearly all the people I tried to introduce to this game got bored before level 20 and quit. Given, I tend to hang out with WoW and now AoC PvPers, but still, that means this is something of a niche game to me.

Also, as to the asking where things are point, would they not have done that anyway as a hatchling? I don't really see why it's much of a difference whether they can fly or not. Not to say your point is invalid, I just don't see what difference it makes.

[Litarath]

I agree with what you say Oakleif, and Takora. While I am/was an "early flier", I never hesitate to recommend to newbies that they may want to wait untill 50/50 or so to do their RoP, simply for the fact that they'll be able to actually participate in the fights.
I personally dont mind if others dont want to help an under 50 hatchling, its their right, just as its the hatchlings right to ask, I didnt fuss at those who refused to help me when I did mine because I was under season.

In fact I wasnt even bother by the RP attitudes of the characters about being an under 50 adult, what got to me was the ooc comments. People flat out telling me I dont know how to play because I didnt wait till 50 or I didnt get that scale. The rude tells basically saying Learn too play noob, when I asked an honest question.

One particularly nasty and public argument I had over Dragon channel once was in defense of another early flier who asked for the location of something or other and another player said in a semi RP, and very rude tone, to the effect of if you're an adult you should know where it is, use your map. I shot back saying maybe his map wasnt working right, which it turns out was true. He replied back oocly that by the time you become an adult you should know where everything is anyways, and it just went down hill from there.

Then there's that handful of people who like to tell me that since Im an early flier, IM going to quit soon because Im going to be bored with the game, just like all the other early fliers. I wont say that there arent at least some early fliers do, but do these people ever seriously stop and think that maybe the reason why most of these early fliers who leave the game, leave because of the way the player base treats them? I know of quite afew who've left this game just because of this kind of treatment. How many people have left this game reguardless of age,race,or lvl because they were bored? I bet early fliers are a very small minority of that group.

It was me you spoke up in defense of actually...

but yes, I agree, there were comments aimed at me to ridicule me and to make me seem as if I were inept in battle... (both IC and OOC, so IC, when approached with something like that, Aika didn't take too well to it and came back with an attitude from the hells... xP... though OOCly, I well had reason to want to complete the Rites early, as her A'mea was forced to take a deep sleep due to RL issues) when actually, I was 50 in craft, and had many points in dexterity, along with dexterity scales as well; I struck each and every foe and managed to slay each and every enemy, save for the Entombed Will with the last blow...
True, as well, that I was told that I would soon sleep, never to waken again... and here now, I wake as often as ever I did back then... it just goes to show, that being able to fly as soon as one can will make that one take to a deep sleep.

Just as Lantua does, I will not hesitate to lend my aid to an aspiring adult and I do inform them of what they may miss out on... Sadly, too many use that 'status' to demean and ridicule others (and I have seen quite a bit of OOC ridiculing in this respect, it makes it downright unpleasant to even want to play) those that choose to fly 'early' are just as capable in battle as any other, there is no such thing as 'early flier' if it is taken at the minimum... how can it be 'early' if they are eligible to take the Rites?

Take the Rites whenever you desire, that is WHEN to take the Rites, when you feel like it, not as dictated by others.

Remember the forums are not the place to discuss disagreements between specific players. Do not name others in your post.

[peladon]

No, its just fine to roleplay a dragon getting huffy about a biped using their language, or to reprimand another dragon for teaching it to bipeds. Like all negative comments done in a roleplay fashion, it can be taken too far, and a good sign of that is when the first player starts getting hostile in defense. You (general, not Nambroth specifically) must always keep in mind that 90% of communication is not the words, and all of that is missing so others can easily mistake the "tone" of what you type.

A prime example is the stories related in this thread about "early fliers" having that held against them long after their ascension. That becomes tedious after a while, and leads to bad feelings and possibly people quitting or moving to another server.

EDIT: By the way, while it rankled that dragons harped on my dragon for using dragon speech in channels other than Dragon, I understand their reasoning even if my Helian dragon doesn't agree. Therefore, I make sure that I only do it when I'm open to that roleplay scenario repeating. My bringing the saris into dragon chat and announcing "glitter sitter knee-in" as a mispronounciation was totally roleplay that I was starting to prick their bubbles and expose them to my good-manners or anti-ugly-American perspective, so it was done when I was open to the "correction".

Elder and wise...

Once this I was told... heh, though whether I heard that spoken I can never know...

" Each word cast forth hath at least two meanings. That intended by the speaker, and another for each that hears it."

Further I would speak. For I may hear a word this waking and mark it thus and so.. but tomorrow I will be another drake and may hear that self and same, but mark it else.

Speak with thine own tongue, but seek to hear with another's ears...


Sephiranoth, called by some ShadowSeeker
Nobody and Nothing ever, save The Five do Feast
A Fool that walks among the Wise

[Amecha]

Alright, I've read it, so I have to put in my 2 cents. As to when a hatchling should attempt their Rite is ENTIRELY up to them, and should in no way be be given grief or belittled for such a choice. A good indication, however, is if the player has completed the necessary attunement runs, understands what they are doing, and if they are doing it below 50, they realize what they are going to miss out on. True, for those helping, it can be sometimes annoying trying to keep the young hatchling alive long enough to finish the quest, but just think of it as tactic practice.

Unfortunately on Order, most early fliers (myself included) have received negative treatment because of our choice. I did ascend early with my first dragon, but at that time, I was unaware of what I had to gain by waiting. With my second dragon, I also ascended early, this time being aware of what I wouldn't receive by waiting, but I still had no regrets.

The negative vibes were more apparent when I ascended early with my second dragon (despite the fact I had already raised one to ancienthood). I was told everything from 'I was not a true dragon for ascending early' to 'I was not worthy to have a mate'. Having dealt with this for such a long period of time is what drove me to almost entirely abandon Order for Blight. I do stop by to say hello to a few friends every once in a while.