So now we are closing rant threads ??

[pevil2000]

Ugh sometimes I hate this forum :P hehe (nah love you guys really)

The problem is around here, we're generally a great group of guys, so when something DOES get out of hand (a fairly 'innocent' post of Get it Done which I agree was a VERY bad choice of words), it seems to get over-inflated. It's like how an argument with your best friend is worse than an argument with a random acquaintance.

And I have to say, anyone who finds this forum to be heavily moderated... well the only forums I've been in that are more easy going than this one where moderation is concerned, are those that are literally for groups of friends only. For a gaming site, this is pretty relaxed moderation. Now that's not to say there isn't the odd controversial lock, but that's going to happen anywhere. For every person who is offended/upset by a post, there's someone else who isn't. That's life.

People just need to learn to stop taking things personally. If you don't like an idea, feel free to say politely and constructively. If your idea is rejected, accept it with good grace. If something is closed, just accept that there is a reason for it. Even if it is a bad one. We're all censored every day by people above us, bosses, government etc. Deal with it, don't let it bother you and just get on with enjoying yourself!

[Deth]

Aviendeha these forms are not modded like they use to be under PMI/EII/Oh/whatever. That was some moding to be seen. Post and people vanishing daily.

[velveeta]

as someone who survived those days, i can tell you deth is totally correct.
read some of the old post from those days - i am personally aquinted with at least 4 peeps who will not come back to horizons because of the way they were treated by the forums - back in the day, mods would not only wipe your posts and ban you, they would apparently pm you with all the gritty details as well........

i am sorry if some peeps think i personally am attacking them in some way. i don't even know most of you, and those i do, only in game/forums.
so i only go by how i feel about what i read. and i state my opinions on that.

i have stated my opinions on both the plot reclaim and the courtesy thing. i do not feel it necessary to reply to the dozens of posts about how i am wrong and someone else is right. i feel that response to seenu, at this time and with the threads currently ongoing, will merely encourage more posts of the same nature.

i am not attacking anyone's position or stance nor am i attacking any one's person. in fact, i am not attacking at all. merely stating my opinion.

[Shur]

as far as moderation goes, this forum is on the stricter side of what i'm used to (http://www.ambrosiasw.com/forums/ is my usual hangout, and you have to be trying, and hard, to get moderated there) but there are definitely much worse places for moderation.

Rules to follow when posting here. (if you want your voice heard).

1. NEVER NEVER criticize the game or the company!
2. NEVER assume you can argue (and get away with it) with the long time regular posters.
3. Make sure to coat your post with as much over the top sweetness as possible when criticizing anything or anyone.

i would say that item three is the only one in that list that actually applies, you can get away with one and two all you like so long as you stick to three. (though, my perspective may be a bit skewed, as i seem to be rather skilled at drawing moderator attention to my posts XD)

but really it's just a matter of how you come across, come out guns blazing and you get burned (as i know from experience) but as long as you aren't overly aggressive, you're safe.

[Theros Ironfeld]

In a nutshell it aint worth the effort to argue a point against the one eyed supporters of this little sandbox.
You will be branded , tarred and feathered or bolloxed to the point you will probably do what i did ... and leave .
And no Vel i aint ever .... ever .. coming back ... ever.

[velveeta]

you are still missed and talked about fondly, ther! good to see you again in any form.

speaking as an one eyed supporter of the sandbox, tho, i would say that most of that stuff happened under the ei/wa. vi has been very good to us so far, and i have every expectation that the good things will continue.

unfortunately, you can't please the minority when you have to make a profit.......

[Vahrokh]

Rules to follow when posting here. (if you want your voice heard).

1. NEVER NEVER criticize the game or the company!
2. NEVER assume you can argue (and get away with it) with the long time regular posters.
3. Make sure to coat your post with as much over the top sweetness as possible when criticizing anything or anyone

All of the above can be condensed in:

"Don't be a donkey".


The forum is privately owned, privately moderated, the terms are privately decided.

If you choose to post here, you follow the forum rules.

If you feel like this forum is too much moderated (I suppose you were not here when Peaches moderated, it was 5 times tighter), there are million other forums where to vent, rant and generally mutilate others' brains.

And I have to say, anyone who finds this forum to be heavily moderated... well the only forums I've been in that are more easy going than this one where moderation is concerned, are those that are literally for groups of friends only.

See, Pevil, people read that horrid cesspool also known as WoW forum and really believe they can bring the same "style" elsewhere.

WoW forum is the worst ghetto for failed jerks, but they don't know, they believe everywhere it's like there and thus they try to expand the "ways" everywhere.

Hopefully, in the other forums, they are contained and put in their place, that is warned and then perma-banned before their stench rots the whole local community.

Edit: before I am labelled as "one eyed" or anything:

I have been contacted (yes, even by Amarie), warned and even banned (Tazoon times, and I still love DangitNotAChance!, man I want to hear from you some times).

Instead of taking it like a slap in the face, I chose to take it as opportunity to learn to live in a community and it feels immensely better. Sure, I still fail a lot and am not really a "soft" poster at all but at least I am trying to improve.

[Vaz]

Gee look its all the same people again posting thier venom at me....

Thanks for confirming what so many players have already figured out is true. You all did exactly what I was hoping that you would do :-)

Istaria has a small community. In all MMOs, a small portion of the community participates in the game's forum. Therefore the people who post on Istaria's forum are very likely to be the same people over and over again. There's nothing sinister about that, it's just probability.

That said, this thread gave me a good laugh. Thanks.

[LOVWYRM]

I stated it often enough:
I hate censoring, banning, deleting.
I once left this forum because of that.
I had to say "sorry peaches - I did not know.."

posts of mine have been censored or deleted since I came back.

I write pm`s now, if the subject is that important to me.

I often enough disagree with posts of certain mods or emissaries.

Nevertheless:
This forum is NOT overcensored!
You do a good job, mods and emissaries.
Thanks for that!!

[Takora Drakan]

I always wanted to post such a pic

[Deth]

I stated it often enough:
I hate censoring, banning, deleting.
I once left this forum because of that.
I had to say "sorry peaches - I did not know.."

posts of mine have been censored or deleted since I came back.

I write pm`s now, if the subject is that important to me.

I often enough disagree with posts of certain mods or emissaries.

Nevertheless:
This forum is NOT overcensored!
You do a good job, mods and emissaries.
Thanks for that!!

I personaly do not wish to be grouped with the Mods. I feel we do two completely different jobs. I am here to help open up communications between the Dev's and the players. I have my opinions and make sure to keep them separate from when I post stuff as an Emissary. Maybe I made a mistake in letting it be known that I was an emissary but felt that at least a couple of us should be known on the boards so that we could pass on info we received and have it be known as coming from an official source. So basicly what I am saying is keep in mind unless you see the Emissary's Hat on they what I say are not the facts but just my opinions and thought. Personally I would never want a mods job as they have it a lot harder then us Emissaries as it is a lot harder for them to step out of their rule and post their options. I am not sure I could bite my tounge as much as I am sure they have to.

[awdz]

Personally I would never want a mods job as they have it a lot harder then us Emissaries as it is a lot harder for them to step out of their rule and post their options. I am not sure I could bite my tounge as much as I am sure they have to.

I agree absolutely, Deth. I doubt I could keep my mouth shut enough, and I am grateful for all the flak they field without slamming down harder.

[Theros Ironfeld]

Disclaimer : when i say you i mean it as a collective and not an individual and not neccesarily the case with this particular company/game.

Emissary , Mod, dev , owner , the one thing you have in common is you all wear the company shirt , fly the company flag or spout the company line like it or not . The pitfall here is only the company line gets a run and the anti's almost always gets shot down by the touts.
see below

A little story : there was this magazine that the owner thought was successful , which in the early years was , trouble was the owner/editor only listened to his writing staff when it came to critique . His assistant editor even went to the extent of sifting the reader writes section and printed the nice rosey letters.
Well in the end subs dropped , readership became non existant and this mag went down the gurgler and is no longer in print .

Unfortunately this is kinda happening here , the touts get the full airing and anti's whether good idea or not so good, dont and lets face it folks good ideas or bad ideas make the world go round ... its how you approach em sieve through em and debate em , that counts.

As for the above mag well i was the unseen money man ... and by the time i caught on to what the crew were doing .. protecting their jobs .. they no longer had a job and well work out the money sides for yourselves.

on topic or not i know there are some going to read this and fly off in defensive ramblings BUT and i do mean BUT if a few stop and go yeah thero ya got a point there , maybe .. just maybe , your beloved game and forum may just move forward and not go the way of the above mentioned mag

[Deth]

Theros I understand and agree just about any where you go the owners of the boards are going to want to see only their slant of things and keep on their rose colored glasses. I think your wrong some what as to this boards as with the couple of long threads on the possible Gold Shield changes. They were very negative about the change and they were listened too. Yes some stepping in was done when things got out of hand or strayed to far from the topic.

I understand that I represent the company even only in a small way but I personally like to think I represent the player more. That If approached and asked to bring something up to the Dev's that I would no matter how much I disliked the idea. But do not expect me to fight for the idea once the Devs say no. If they wish to take the fight up them selves after that on the boards I would make it know I asked I was given X reply and then post my likes or dislikes about the idea. I think all the others that have taken up the mantle of Emissary would do the same, but again that is only my opinion.

On the Topic on hand and the original thread. The OP needed to understand that once he was told no by a Dev, I am sorry that is the end of it. It was taken by the CM to the Dev's they looked at it compared it to the plans they had and said no. At that point he should have done like I did when I got the flippant answer from DB on the Tri-cut changes long ago. That a Dev said no and that was that and just bid his time till a better time when it could be looked into again. If he had who knows maybe like me he would have gotten what he wished in the long run.

In the original thread I tried to explain that there is very limited Dev time, I am not sure if he even paid attention to it, I know most people do know know or understand how limited Dev time for the game is so every little change has to be weighted reward vs time and effort.

[Vahrokh]

Emissary , Mod, dev , owner , the one thing you have in common is you all wear the company shirt , fly the company flag or spout the company line like it or not . The pitfall here is only the company line gets a run and the anti's almost always gets shot down by the touts.

Well, this is not just developers / mods / whatever being partial and flying the company.

All those who stick to Istaria, developers and not, are clearly those who are already well dedicated to it even before becoming a mod / dev / emissary and they will feel over-protective. They were over-protective even as normal players.

The non over-protective ones quit already and years ago.

Moreover, the forums "population" is always a tiny percentage of the player base, usually 1-5%. For Istaria, being 1-5% of the playerbase equals to be so few forum people that indeed you'll always see the same 10-20 "faces", it's all the game got.

Finally, one thing is to accuse people of "flying" with the company, another is disagreeing with them in such a rude (it's not your case, I am just bringing examples), ineducate way that you are automatically considered a flamer and a troll.

In this case, regardless of the intentions and opinion and of being right, that guy manages to lose every credibility and won't be considered.

Example: at a stop, guy B softly crashes with his car into the back of guy A. Guy A is the damaged one, the one "in the right".

But guy A "enrages", starts insulting B, then spits him in the face and starts randomly gunshooting at the bypassers.

Who goes in the wrong? Who will go in jail?

In these forums, A is a poster that has some complaints, B are the other players and the police jailing A are the moderators.

[Oakleif]

I really, really wasn't going to post on this thread, as the OP seemed to group me in with the "cabal", even though I no longer play on Chaos. However, even before applying for the position of Emissary I was a bit worried about people thinking the Emissary hat confers powers that really aren't there, and expressed that concern to the developers. So let me take this opportunity to express my view of what being an Emissary entails.

1. I take all the official announcements from the top of the board and bring them to the Vault boards (if Deth doesn't beat me to it), and I used to take them to Stratics boards before they shut down for major revamping. I can't find forums at Ten-Ton Hammer or I'd post there, and I'm considering Warcry, though those boards seem unused.

2. If anyone posts an opinion/suggestion over there, I bring it to the devs attention, so that the devs don't have to read those forums themselves, and take away from their development time.

3. I also have a couple guild boards that I troll, looking for opinions, though I don't participate in posting on them.

4. I don't bother doing #2 for these forums, though I did at the beginning, because the Emissaries have been told several times that its unnecessary: Amarie reads every post on these official boards (and periodically visits several other external forums as well).

5. If I know, by virtue of having played the game for several years, a developer reply to a post anywhere (typically either "its on the I-want-a-pony list" or "they've said its not possible") then I'll post that. If the suggestion/opinion is gathering weight from multiple posters, then I'll bring it to the developers' attention again anyway, and bring any answer back again to the thread.

I don't view having an emissary tag as preventing me from stating my own opinion, as long as I make sure its clear that I'm speaking as myself. I do feel that once I've declared myself as speaking unofficially in a thread, that that remains in effect for the duration of that thread, unless I specifically state that I have an answer from the devs.

I also feel its everyone's job to help maintain an atmosphere that is open to reasoned discussion. That means that everyone is bound by the forum rules prominently stated on the Announcements board. If I feel a post or thread is breaking the rules, which includes rants as they are on the board, then I'll use the little icon located to the left of each and every post to report it, state what I feel is wrong with it, and let the forum moderators sort it out. Ones that I've reported have sometimes been closed, sometimes been editted, and sometimes have been left alone. Again, this is a tool that everyone is entitled and encouraged to use when appropriate.

[gopher65]

That means that everyone is bound by the forum rules prominently stated on the Announcements board.

I personaly do not wish to be grouped with the Mods. I feel we do two completely different jobs. I am here to help open up communications between the Dev's and the players.

And this *points up* is a problem with this forum. As Deth says, he has his job to do, the devs have their job, and the mods have their job. It has to be that way, because we (everyone) are incapable of partitioning our brains and acting in a completely unbiased way when we have a stake in events. So different people have different jobs, with separate responsibilities. As an example of how not to organize things, Velea is: Chief Forum Mod, Developer, and Community Manager. You *cannot* be all three (or even 2). As someone else recently said (paraphrased), "you're in a conflict of interest with yourself. As a dev, you want to hear praise; as a forum mod, you're supposed to be neutral; as a community manager, you're supposed to solicit unbiased feedback, not just what you want to hear."

So when someone posts something along the lines of, "I think that the new Dire Wolf spawn sucks11!!" (I don't think that, it's just an example), of course Velea gets upset. She set it up. She spent a lot of time making that work, figuring things out, struggling with the development tools to make them do what she wanted. And being hurt at those words (and being human), she will of course scrutinize that post far more thoroughly for possible offences than she would a post from her husband that says, "I love you honey; great job!" - however offtopic and therefore technically against the rules such a post would be. So, she naturally mods the offending post (even though it isn't against the forum rules), but not the one that pleases her (which is against the rules).

That's just the way people are. That's why conflicts of interest are so taboo; it has been widely recognized that humans are incapable of controlling our emotions and acting logically in situations like this.

Anyway, my inability to handle Velea's omnipresence was a significant (but ultimately not the determining) factor in my decision to cancel my account.

[Velea]

Velea is: Chief Forum Mod, Developer, and Community Manager. You *cannot* be all three (or even 2).

It is good that I can not be all three, because that means we're in perfect agreement, gopher. Of course, you are wrong in implying that I am all three. I am not "chief forum moderator" (I suppose that would be Menkure if it were anyone). I am not Community Manager (that is Amarie). I'm a developer.

So when someone posts something along the lines of, "I think that the new Dire Wolf spawn sucks11!!" (I don't think that, it's just an example), of course Velea gets upset. She set it up. She spent a lot of time making that work, figuring things out, struggling with the development tools to make them do what she wanted. And being hurt at those words (and being human), she will of course scrutinize that post far more thoroughly for possible offences than she would a post from her husband that says, "I love you honey; great job!" - however offtopic and therefore technically against the rules such a post would be. So, she naturally mods the offending post (even though it isn't against the forum rules), but not the one that pleases her (which is against the rules).

While there are times when it could be convenient to be able to moderate like this, I simply can not. I no longer have moderation ability on the forums, and have not for months. Once Amarie was trained and ready to take over full time, one of the first things I had her do was remove moderator ability from me.

That's just the way people are. That's why conflicts of interest are so taboo; it has been widely recognized that humans are incapable of controlling our emotions and acting logically in situations like this.

Anyway, my inability to handle Velea's omnipresence was a significant (but ultimately not the determining) factor in my decision to cancel my account.

Wow... I'm a bit amazed that I have such power over anyone. I do apologize, publicly, that I made you that upset gopher. I do realize that we have had our moments, shall we say, of utter disagreement in the past, and times when one or the other of us has felt quite unfairly judged. However, I'm quite surprised that my actions could lead to your choices. I personally hold nothing against you, nor would I let your actions dictate my choices. But, to each his/her own.

Please, however, I would ask that you understand that I am not now, nor have I been for months, a moderator on these or any other forums.

[Silverblaze]

I can whole heartedly see both sides of this. I can see how people might see any of the before stated stuff.

I can see thero's point, I can see seenu's, I can see gophers, ...

I can also see velea's, oak's and deth's.

I see this thread as a wake up call that these rumors are present, I've heard them.

In the end, the fact that this thread hasnt been closed...means the modding cant be all that heavy no? Then again it could all be a trick to lull us into a false sense of security?

I dunno, Just saying both "sides" have viable opinions and need to be thought about furhter than 5 minutes. or such is the opinion of the devils advocate.

[Ahael]

Forums with no moderation at all are *much* worse. I feel that moderation here is.. well... moderate. Not extreme, and not non-existent. Just compare what we have vs. many other (gaming) forums... Some of those would badly need *any* form of working moderation if you ever wanted even semi-intelligent conversation - others are so incredibly over-moderated so you can't have any good conversation either.

And like some have said, we're all human... it's just that our scale is small - very very small number of people write here. So things do get personal sometimes. We "know" each other better - for example, the users of World of Whatevercraft forums are much more anonymous to each other than we are here.