dragons How much is too much

[Shian]

the dragon is the most diverse and well rounded class in hz

Yet, even with the best scales, all dragon and biped buffs, potions and a T6 station the best we can ever achieve in T6 is 5:1. We are a jack of all trades and a master of none.

but i think that is should be harder to attain.

I'd love to have another class to grind, but it dosen't look as if we're getting one.

i mean they can heal, cleanse themselves with tekked spells they can make, buff themselves up, do crazy melee damage, aoe spell groups, sup rez, pull long distances, fly ,stun ,debuff (lightning breath) , and absorb enormous amounts of damage.

Not true. We can only spec some of those in a list. A dragon is either:
Healer, Aoe
Damage, damage absorb
Not both.

Getting a rez is a very long and drawn out process. We can only get it if we do every one of our adv. quests and is 90 or above. It's also on a very long timer. What kind of rezzes do bipeds get and when?

Debuff? Heh. That lightning breath does not hit very often. So much so, I know a few dragons that don't have it on thier toolbar.

. they used to need peds for stuff.. oh wiat they still do ... food :/.

Potions, buffs, heals, rezzes, food and T6 crafting. T6/7 combat- some bipeds can achieve alone while a dragon has no hope of doing so.

heck they even have racist slurs now .... way for the posative reinforcment btw..

It does seem odd to have a game that by lore, puts two different player classes at odds due to status.

[CallakDW]

No dragon that I know of can handle groups of blights or anythign else in ED without support of a biped healer without dieing. Still I think Callak handles them better than those using rages with his AOEs WITH a healer presant. But what I was refering to is single dragon vs dragon on ice or fire island, one using primal aoes that is trained in primal and at his peak potential vs one trained in T&C at his peak potential both taking on equal groups of beetles for instance and using rages. I believe the primal will win, and use much less hoard.

[Akuluxtraxas]

I beg to differ on the blights as i can solo 5+ on my main and i just enjoy it. the key there is i enjoy it. I like to 1 hit kill things. I like to feel that rush when my ancient just takes a mighty swipe and leaves ruin in place.

Im glad you enjoy AoE casting and if you enjoy it than you should play how you enjoy but dont try to take that from others. Should spells cost hoard too? make you choose when to use em? via your logic yes and then would you be as effecient by holding back on your best ones to not use hoard? dont wish others playstyle to get made harder because you dont use it/like it.

And lets not use Lunus to refer to melee because I have 3 helian ancients and a lunus who all use melee =)

[CallakDW]

And lets not use Lunus to refer to melee because I have 3 helian ancients and a lunus who all use melee =)

I never stated the word lunus or helian... for the record. But I will admit that what annoys me the most is that a dragon using gold rage can one hit kill a single target before I can even get a bolt off, and never feel sorry for wasting the hoard on it. Callak's best casting abilities come no where near dealing the damage that a rage can to a single target. And aoe's only beat melee attacks if there is enough targets in his near vacinity to make it worth while. For boss mobs even I resort to using rages, but they have so many HPs that it's worth while.

[Akuluxtraxas]

And i Agree with you on the caster situation and i have long argued that we get better spells that have stun mechanics,snares and well better delay. I lovecasters in every other game but sadly Horizons has never come through for dragon casters during the stages of improving our combat prowess.

I can sympathize your frustration as i felt it myself plenty. I still want to see our spells become better but i ask for changes that improve what I like and yes they have not been added yet but its so important we try to focus on improvements and changes that benefit all dragonkind. Gold rage was a save the games *** panic button long ago when the subscription base was plummeting as fast as i can 1 hit kill mobs.

I like challenging games myself but i also am realizing here if Dragons are like the past or even half so we couldnt even contribute against these epics and event mobs. Not to mention trying to earn coin for property.

Horizons has always had a great imbalance in many ways and not just between races but even among the same.

[CallakDW]

I'm not sure if my argument is to give casters hoard attacks that deal major damage or to reduce what melele is capable of, or increase the penalty of using hoard melee (as in harder to find hoard) but one needs to be done to make a balance IMO.

Even in RP, Callak has to fight to remain respected because as a player I know he is incapable of beating someone in an areana trained for melee due to the fact that melee vs caster is not well enough balanced. I would be happy even if spellcasters did not have as much damage, but perhapse had more debilitating abilities, like my biped sorcerer who, for instance, can mez and slow targets down. Right now, caster dragons have very little power.

Anyway, I think I have derailed this topic a bit. I was only arguing against the ease of access of hoard because I felt that harder to find hoard would even casters and noncaster dragons out a bit because there is no ubber spells that use hoard, that melee can't use very well as well as put bipeds on a more level ground with dragons....

[Guaran]

Sounds like you should be playing a biped shaman....

[CallakDW]

Sounds like you should be playing a biped shaman....

What I want is to play a dragon caster equivilant to what is in D&D. Dragon casters in D&D 3rd edition are very dangerous, and have tons of tricks up ther errmmm scales. Not this gimped version that Istaria provides. Anyway, no worries, Callak's nephue is my alt that I'm trying to work up as a melee dragon, he is not going to suffer any of the difficulties facing Callak. All I wanted is for Callak to be a sort of powerful scholar/sage caster type, but it's difficult to work up such an image when he is so easily beat by melee.

I think I should withdraw from this topic, the topic is a biped vs dragon not dragon caster vs dragon melee. Mabe I'll revisit somwhere else.

[lightning claw]

This should be in Istarian rants. I feel you don’t know what dragons go throw to get throws ability’s.
Personally , I WANT ANOTHER SCHOOL FOR DRAGONS AND NOT A NOTHER CRAFT SCHOOL. After you get to 100, and kill just about everything, what else do you have to do? There needs to be more end game client and new battles.

However your post imho is way off in left field. To truly master your dragon to deal as you so call put it "mad amounts of Malay damage" takes 1 year if not longer, I always find a way to make my dragon stronger this is going back from late 04 from when i started .

Also , consider this , Having power and knowing how to use that power to its full capacity is two completely different things.

[Takora Drakan]

A dragon was very had to play, at the beginning. I remember when I had in beta to take mobs 5 level down my own to have a chance to actually kill them. Most time I had to run for my life if i got more than one mob. Remember the hoard leak that was still there when the RoP came out? Was a pain in the butt to get the 250k with crafting because your hoard would drop more, than higher you get your hoardpoints. And there where no hoard items. I remember dragons giving the bipeds iron bars that they can craft them tools and swords, because they had more hoard value then a scale or gem.

But then with the time the hoard leak faded, dragons got this and that. They got fancy stuff and got "easier" as much here say. Compared to the start dragons are awful easy now to play because they are nearly self sufficient. It is pretty cool that I can pull 20 ice beetles on Ice island and one shot them with my flame burst mostly. And with the add of the heal spell I even dont need to rely on a healer often.

Bipeds have their tons of multiclassing oppunities to shape their perfect character. Dragons have not, they have to live whith that what they get, and if some are very good in that to handle their dragons they are overpowered? I dont think so.


Is it just more or gets all easier with the time?

[Vlisson]

I would like to bring up something that bothers me and likly many will not like or wish to hear what i have to say but here goes. i do know that many of the characters in this game are dragons and that it is the "major draw" to the game but i feel things are starting to get out of hand. I think they are great and all but the balance is shifting. i personally believe a fully outfitted dragon
is around equivalent power to near 400 + ped adventure levels. I can remember when they got the shaft and they did for a long time but with so many additions over the years nothing has been set to balence the progression. the dragon is the most diverse and well rounded class in hz and they can craft all the items they need from 1 class. don't get me wrong i like how a dragon is a powerfull thing. but i think that is should be harder to attain. i mean they can heal, cleanse themselves with tekked spells they can make, buff themselves up, do crazy melee damage, aoe spell groups, sup rez, pull long distances, fly ,stun ,debuff (lightning breath) , and absorb enormous amounts of damage. hrmmm not much left to give.... one would think
origionally the low craft gains of the dragon were set to offset the fact that they could make so much and be self sufficient. they used to need peds for stuff.. oh wiat they still do ... food :/. but still tinks used to make their discs and when hoard didn't fall from the sky as it does now peds and dragons used to craft together often to make greatly needed hoard. alot of that interaction has disappeared. heck they even have racist slurs now .... way for the posative reinforcment btw. it is my personal belief that the dragon class is lacking one thing. earning it.

do you play a high lvl dragon? and a high multiclassed biped? else you dont have the experience to talk about the difference ^^

i personally think that hatchlings and adult are too powerfull ^^ too much upgrades to the dragon kind boosted the power the last years

[Shian]

it is my personal belief that the dragon class is lacking one thing. earning it.

I also find this slightly insulting as you're painting all dragons with one brush based on the frustartion of having to level multiple classes.

I've been playing Shian for 9 months. I recently got her the rez ability and level 100. But that's okay, all that playtime and according to this sentence, I didn't earn a thing.

I will say one thing though, dragons are a wonderful starter class just based on some of the points you put forward. (Being able to make all raw materials for instance) For a class that is the game's 'selling point', it's a nice class to start on, experience Istaria then grab a biped or two and work on the rest of the game and some of the more advanced aspects of the game. It is my belief that we need a somewhat easy class to reccommend for those starting out and need to know/can decide within 3 months if the game is a keeper or not.

[Amerelium]

What, are you saying we should be no better than the snack..?

[Kumu Honua]

I will just point at my sig.

[Vandalin]

Well, I don't know enough about he intricacies of damage comparisons and the like. I currently am a level 48 dragon who prefers casting but uses her ravage and bite and avoids Gold Rage and Silver Strike (and now Drain) unless needed to save her butt. I also am three bi-peds all under 20 so I can't compare what a level 100 dragon vs. level 100 bi-ped of any class.

What I can input which most people haven't mentioned in their posts is; Yes, there is an immense balance issue when it comes to the number of dragons. I was curious one day, before this post even and I did a search in game on Order (yes I know people are sometimes invisible) and was amazed that of the 40 odd people online 25-30 were dragons. Could have been time of day, could be invisible bi-peds, but I have a feeling that until the devs start focusing on the bi-peds more (confection is a great start) then Istraria will be a mostly Dragon game.

Don't get me wrong, I love my dragon and the dragon race (yes, big game draw) but I love my bi-peds too and would like to be able to group once in a while with other bi-peds.

Just my $.02 take it or leave it.

[Deth]

Well part of the grouping issue is dragons but a bigger part, I think is that we have an elder pop that have most of the classes they need and do not need to group with any one. Dragons of lower levels need to group a lot more then dragons of elder levels, but dragons of all levels "need" to group more then bipeds as we can not do everything a biped can do. A well multiclassed Biped can do all his own healing and buffing and everything. A Dragon can not heal as well or buff as well so would do better grouping with a biped.

I think it is more of a player mentality then a one classes/race is better then another. Most of us have grown up here where grouping has not been rewarded. I am not even sure if there is a group XP bonus any more. I know there is for fighting multiple mobs but want about a bonus for each group member. Something like that would help promote grouping greatly.

[Kyrieath]

Since the OP is concentrating so heavily on supposed dragon strengths, let's take a look at some weaknesses.

-Can't wear a full set of armor until 90 in some school or another. Ouch. What's that say for our defense over all those levels while we can't wear it and bipeds are running around in full suits? Sure, we can opt to try to skirt that issue by grinding up crafting...but again, not everyone loves the dragon crafting. It IS just doing the same thing over and over again and let's recall that it's creating things only useful TO dragons unless we're talking spells. Bipeds make things useful to everyone.

-Hoard is easy to maintain if you love grinding. Not everyone loves grinding. If you do, good for you- you deserve the hoard you get. If you don't, get used to watching what you do in your fights. I don't see bipeds suffering any kind of set back to their abilities because they aren't willing to spend hours doing nothing but killing.

-Dragons lack the ability to be as varied as bipeds. You're one of three or four variants- that's it. A biped can come in many flavors, depending on how many mastered skills they've picked up in their multiclassing and their personal skill at mixing and matching them to a situation.

-Unless something has changed in the last few months; dragons are also at a pretty severe disadvantage when taking on the Aegis. Primal magic doesn't seem to do so hot against them, they can shrug off our normal attacks where they can't a biped's due to the many ways a biped can work ethereal damage into their fighting.

-Again, unless this has changed since I stepped away a few months ago: Dragons have to quest for every single useful (and not so useful) skill they get beyond spells and certain ones that levels unlock. The rule of the dragon is "Oh, level 10/20/30/40/ect ect; time to make the training rounds!". Which of course you do one at a time so it's a never ending process. If you're doing them alone or in a small group- those will take you to the next set of quests. Might sound great but when they're essentially all kill quests- either so many of this or this particular special mob....it starts to get very dull. Hoo. Rah. Instead of twenty of this annoying hard to find monster, you go after twenty of this annoyingly hard to find monster. Joy. Thrills. Chills. But can you skip them? Only if you like being weaker than you should be.

-We get to do the questing thing again for our crafts. Upside is- means we don't have to carry the special tools (and thus save bag space) a biped does. Downside, it means we're doing a whole lot of the exact same, unskippable thing (if we want our dragons to develop to the fullest).

When a dragon can easily survive the same situation a 400 rating biped can against the Aegis/similar enemies and not have to sacrifice damned near all they've ground up in the past few days in a few hours' time- then I'll agree they're closing in on the god-ped turf. Until then; the bipeds still rule for overall adaptability and flat out power with little trade off if they're willing to invest time into it. Time investment in a dragon stops at 100/100/100 for actual progress. You get there, boom- you're done. They can grow no further, get no stronger. Bipeds can always choose to pick up another class and give it a whirl if they want to keep playing that character, or to change out classes if they want to play their character in a completely different fashion.

We do, however, still get wings and lairs big enough to fit a few biped settlements in all to one dragon. Not something everyone would consider an advantage (particularly the latter) but those are honestly about the only genuine advantages a dragon can claim over bipeds unless, again, something massively changed during my little hiatus.

[LOVWYRM]

well here are my thoughts:

- none of my high level friends/ mates need me , when they go out hunting.
Sometimes I felt, that they invite me, so I do not stand outside and cry^^
Not because of my friends, but because of what I see what they can do- and I cannot. And that I`m often enough a burden ( )- when it comes to mass- pulls of elite blights or similar.

When I started a new dragon on chaos (due to the Unity thing), I worked hard to get LovSkin to 100 adv/80 craft as soon as possible and then did ARoP. Without the help of many dear friends I would not have succeeded.
But I did AroP with 6 Mio hoard, wore blighted scales, t3&t4 spells and no coin.
It will take me lots of further hard work to become such a powerful dragon that you describe, Sum

Lovwyrm from Unity (now order) is in a better position, But it took her 4 years to come that far. But I still do not have all scale sets I need, no new dragon forms, have looted only 1 of the new crystals myself (thy Takora on order and
Akisha on chaos for the others Flame and I have). How many e.g. elite blights can a dragon like me pull and survive? I`m a little shy to tell you how much I can- nothing compared with bipeds.
And I`m still not able to protect my biped friends on satyr islands.
To be honest: I have probs to survive myself (headscale on, headscale off...^^^)

Hoard: I hunt on Isle of Ice quite often, but I give the hoard to Flameus and an old friend who build our lair atm. Old Unity players, and far away from the 26 mio. Or to others who need it, younger ones most of the time. I think its easy to get hoard, when you can hunt and mass pull on IoI-and you have nothing else to do.
To come to an end - I do not feel overpowered-how could I?
I`m a dragon- and a Lunus

[Nisse]

You know there's too many dragons in Istaria when you can walk across them from Kion to Harro...

[Veruliyam]

Last I heard, we were only a third of the total population.